Warrior Vs Bradley

[denoir 0]

Counter Battery Radar (COBRA) and counter battery artillery is definately part of the defence against smart artillery munitions but it too is countered by anti radiation misilles a few of these lobbed up over the battlefield before the shoot means the you dare not turn on the radar for fear of a HARM spoiling your day. Of course we then come down to spoof radar units.

Of course, once the radar lights up, everybody knows where it is, so it can expect missiles, shells, rocks and small farm animals being thrown in its general direction. Of course who ever launches a missile exposes its position. If you put in aircraft, you have SAMs on the ground and so on and so on..

In a total war you have a very long food chain which is cross linked. For every measure there is a countermeasure.

In a symmetrical style conflict á la the cold war you can count on that everything that most field radars will be toast pretty fast an that the skies will be neutral. As a matter of fact it is more likely that AEGIS cruisers and similar things will serve as counter battery radars rather than small field operated radars. And they're a bit more difficult to hit. In the field, anything that emits a radar signature will probably have been knocked out already. This puts the artillery at an disadvantage as it can only rely on local information (even with smart munitions you have to be fairly precise where you strike) while the counter units rely on a much wider picture given by high energy long distance radars.

Today's conflicts however are more likely to be assymetrical. For instance in Afghanistan and Iraq, the fighters have plenty of mortars but no radars. That means that they can use them as a harassment weapon but without any operational significance. Giving them an AMOS system with STRIX rounds would make their harassment more deadly, but still it would be of little tactical or operational significance.

Quote[/b] ]For the record the AMOS can put 14 MRSI smart rounds per unit in the air in one minute and can scoot within 10 seconds of the warning. It can also put 26 rounds a minute of none MRSI smart rounds into the air.

A comment on the MRSI: it's main feature is to use it against infantry in the open. I.e not give them time to find cover between the vollies. For other purposes it is inferior as all the shells are in the air as long as the shell that takes the longest time. In short on average, the shells are in flight a logner time. That and the difference in trajectory height makes them very simple to pick up on radar and it gives more time for a response.

[Heavy Metal 0]

I have reports from Iraq of the 25mm rounds from the M2's Bushmaster cannon going thru the front AND rear of the turret of an Iraqi T-72 when fired at near point blank range.

Even on an old monkey-model T-72, thats impressive as hell!

[the_shadow 0]

well... calculations said thet we would be toast if we where in the same location for more then 10 minutes after fireing (considered the enemy didn´t have his arty pointed our direction or even ready to fire) but i would say considered the times we made this (go from "on the roll" to first shot) we would most likely have just 3 minutes... (if even that much)

and IF the enemy got his guns loaded and in our general direction... well at most 1 minute, wich means, shoot 1 round and run as fast as you can... becouse, as soon as our grenade comes over the threetops the enemy knows exactly where we are...

this is why we in sweden are now ordering our future artillery systems...

AMOS can as said above deliver 14 rnds more or less simultaneous in the target area and be far away when enemy shells start dropping on it´s position...

our new Howitser (H77BW) can pretty much do the same but with BONUS rounds (a round relesing 2 RVS heat seeking charges with top attack effekt (dual RSV in each charge))

so with a swedish Battalion (12 guns) with 6rnd MRSI 155mm calibre and BONUS rounds well... 6x2 tanks are pretty much finito in about 3 seconds... and they are on the run before enemy counter battery fire hit it´s position...

so, i would say that against a country with modern artillery tanks are pretty much useless... (and so are IFV´s and APC´s)

(note, sweden still counts soviet union (russia) as our main threath (guess we get borne with that thought) so we calculate for a massive tank assault through finland, that might be why we have pretty much state-of-the-art equipment (with some old stuff mixed in there))

[Grizzlie 0]

On modern battlefield if it is going dark, it not means that it will rain, but that your enemy put all those UAV's into air

So any motorised stuff is in big danger, so i rather would count on "smaller" STRIX (82mm) - 3 or 4 guys, mortair and 4-5 pieces of ammo fired in about 30 sec, than they ran away, best on bicycles

Oh hell, i forgot it is XXI century - so on quads ;)

[denoir 0]

well... calculations said thet we would be toast if we where in the same location for more then 10 minutes after fireing (considered the enemy didn´t have his arty pointed our direction or even ready to fire) but i would say considered the times we made this (go from "on the roll" to first shot) we would most likely have just 3 minutes... (if even that much)

and IF the enemy got his guns loaded and in our general direction... well at most 1 minute, wich means, shoot 1 round and run as fast as you can... becouse, as soon as our grenade comes over the threetops the enemy knows exactly where we are...

this is why we in sweden are now ordering our future artillery systems...

AMOS can as said above deliver 14 rnds more or less simultaneous in the target area and be far away when enemy shells start dropping on it´s position...

How would that solve your CB problem? As you said, as soon as your shells are over the tree tops, the enemy knows your exact position. Now for the AMOS in MRSI mode, you have to fire not one round (x2), but seven at different trajectories in such a fashion that they impact at the same time. So from a counter battery perspective, you're worse off. The simultaneous impact in the target area is useful because it prevents troops in the open finding cover between the rounds.

And considering that the Russians have IR-guided shells as well and that it is unlikely that you could fire + move whatever your AMOS is mounted on beyond 10 km (or whatever the maximum tracking radius for Russian IR guided shells is) in 3 minutes. You'd be toast anyhow.

And in a Russian-Swedish conflict you could count on the Russians having both air superiority as well as more counter battery capabilities than us.

[the_shadow 0]

yeah, thats true...

now, i dont know about the russian IR guided munitions but the swedish just have a 100X100m radius (STRIX) or 1000x1000 (i belive (BONUS))

now, if 4 or more AMOS opens fire with 2 strix each and then move say 500m (that´s the least artillery regroups becouse of CBF) and then fires 2 new rounds... (not all vehicles moving simultaneous more like, 1 fire, 1 prepares to move, 1 moves, 1 prepares to fire) this would mean we can still have continous fire in the target without the enemy having any chance to hit us... then scale this up with 2 companys (6 guns in each) but howitzers on trucks, then the enemy will have huge trouble.. (and this is already how we do it but with pulled howitzers)

so we use the "shoot n scoot" tactic, 1 platoon firing, 1 moving, 1 preparing to fire.. this is by far the most effective tactic for artillery considering the CBF threath... (but then there is the Air threath, just hope we got one hell of an AA defence to keep the enemy aircraft buisy...

[denoir 0]

yeah, thats true...

now, i dont know about the russian IR guided munitions but the swedish just have a 100X100m radius (STRIX) or 1000x1000 (i belive (BONUS))

Really? That small? Considering that the shell can go quite high, I'm surprised that it doesn't search a larger area. That means that you must be pretty much spot on when you use it against tanks.

So, it's basically useless aganst advancing tanks?

Anyway, that changes situations (both ways). If you can move away from any retaliatiory 'smart' munitions then your target can equally move out of range.

Quote[/b] ]now, if 4 or more AMOS opens fire with 2 strix each and then move say 500m (that´s the least artillery regroups becouse of CBF) and then fires 2 new rounds... (not all vehicles moving simultaneous more like, 1 fire, 1 prepares to move, 1 moves, 1 prepares to fire) this would mean we can still have continous fire in the target without the enemy having any chance to hit us... then scale this up with 2 companys (6 guns in each) but howitzers on trucks, then the enemy will have huge trouble.. (and this is already how we do it but with pulled howitzers)

so we use the "shoot n scoot" tactic, 1 platoon firing, 1 moving, 1 preparing to fire.. this is by far the most effective tactic for artillery considering the CBF threath...

Yeah, but considering that they get alerted seconds after you fire your shells, you probably can't expect them to stick in one place, happily recieving your shells. And considering that an MRSI volley takes considerably longer time to reach target than an low angle volley, they may have ample time to move. They may not be able to locate you easily if you move around, but you on the other hand would be firing at a targetless area.

Quote[/b] ] (but then there is the Air threath, just hope we got one hell of an AA defence to keep the enemy aircraft buisy...

Heh, don't count on it. At AMF we counted tops 12 hours of friendly skies and another 12 of neutral.

I really don't envy you artillery boys in the case of war. The only worse thing I can think of is being a radar operator.

[the_shadow 0]

yeah, that where our calculation too, IF we ever get a war, we would probably be toast on just about no time since arty is a "hot target" ;)

well, the reason for the small target area is that the shell only guides during the very last phase of it´s trajectory, (strix starts to search about 300m above ground i think, Bonus releases the submunitions at about 1000m altitude i think...

in that case the us COPPERHEAD (laser guided munitions) are a bit better but neither they are very good at hitting moving targets...

in the case of a advancing enemy we can just calculate a time for the enemy to reach our target area (this is the FO´s job) and get the shells to land at the precise moment the enemy reaches that point... OR put down a lot of HE shells in one place forcing the enemy to take another route wich hopefully leads him into a minefield and/or our own AT defence (tanks, IFV, Infantry, ATGM and everything else "direct fire" weapons we have... then they´ll probably slow down enough for the artillery to use STRIX and BONUS on him...

Artillery wont win a fight by himself...

and as in every other case the only tactic working is "Fire, Movement", we always want to get the enemy where we want him and can fight him on equal terms...

[mr reality 0]

What about this  Russian IFV.

The BMD-3 ACV is a light amphibious armoured vehicle intended to equip air assault and marine corps units. The vehicle can be transported by air and parachuted with crews to the assigned areas. The ACV features a front arrangement of command and troops compartments with engine and gears located in the rear. It is armed with 30 mm automatic gun, 7.62 mm coaxial machine gun and KONKURS ATGMS. 30 mm AGS-17 automatic grenade launcher and 5.45 RPKS-74 MG are mounted in the hull and can be taken in the battlefield.

[.granQ. 0]

shadow, denoir.. only a true war, or a great MP game can tell who is right, so lets wait for next release of coc arty and then find out..

what about the future ifv, i know sweden isn't alone working parts that can be changed very quickly, like from a wheel ambulance to a wheeled ifv, to a tracked ifv..

[mr reality 0]

what about the future ifv, i know sweden isn't alone working parts that can be changed very quickly, like from a wheel ambulance to a wheeled ifv, to a tracked ifv..

Theres only one answer to that....An unmaned vehicle,operated from the an aircraft way up above...

*Dam i forgot about the poor suckers in the back*..Ah well i suppose they'd better hurry up with the cloneing program then..

[b_ringer25 0]

i believe the bradley would win against any ifv. if the TOW can take out tanks well an ifv it won't have now problem against.

i'm half british/american

[.granQ. 0]

if you would put a IFV up on desert island VS brandley (real world stuff not ofp), then of course the TOW is a great thing..

but remeber, the brandly have to stand still when fire it and during that time a swedish cv9040 with 40 mm "heat" ammo can fire alot on the brandly while moving, and they say that 40 mm can take out old tanks in the rear so actually, both have pretty good chance i belive..

a) m2a2 hit with tow and kill other ifv

b) other ifv's cannon makes small holes on the m2a2's gunner, tow miss.

but real world is much more complexed since both have intel, and diffrent training..

[Heavy Metal 0]

The Bradley can fire on the move, that is incorrect info you have.

[somebloke 0]

More to the point what has a swedish ifv got to do with the warrior?

[tankieboy 0]

And what is a brandley?

[somebloke 0]

Maybe its a kung fu expert in the art of cow marking.

[Rishon 0]

Maybe its a kung fu expert in the art of cow marking.

lol, Hilarious.

[.granQ. 0]

what does certain people has to do with this forum?

if you read all the thread you notice we have talked about bmp's, brandley's, warrior, german ifv's, and swedish cv9040..

and to the "brandley can fire on the move" i quote fas.org

Quote[/b] ]The Bradley must stop in order to fire these missiles, which are them reloaded by the Infantrymen in the back of the vehicle, using a special hatch which provides armor protection during the reload operation.

of course fas.org could be wrong, but please give me some source were it says can be fired on the move.

Fas.org about M2A2

and smokeblock, thank you for sharing your thoughts about cows and kung fu in a thread about IFVs..

[tankieboy 0]

Still miffed as to what a brandley is.

[somebloke 0]

i blame Pierce Morgan

[GoOB 0]

Please, this kind of behaviour makes you wonder what people have to in their spare time.... If you don't understand what he is trying to say, then I suggest you read his posts instead of taunting him for single typos. If it bothers you to that extent here are .granQ.'s posts "corrected":

Quote[/b] ]if you would put a IFV up on desert island VS brandley (real world stuff not ofp), then of course the TOW is a great thing..

but remeber, the bradley have to stand still when fire it and during that time a swedish cv9040 with 40 mm "heat" ammo can fire alot on the bradley while moving, and they say that 40 mm can take out old tanks in the rear so actually, both have pretty good chance i belive..

a) m2a2 hit with tow and kill other ifv

b) other ifv's cannon makes small holes on the m2a2's gunner, tow miss.

but real world is much more complexed since both have intel, and diffrent training..

Quote[/b] ]if you read all the thread you notice we have talked about bmp's, brandley's, warrior, german ifv's, and swedish cv9040..

I hope that brightens up your day and makes life a tad bit easier for you

Back on-topic:

Personally I would bet on the CV9040 to win if pitted against an M2A2 Bradley or a Warrior IFV. I don't really know why but the CV9040 seems much more mobile than atleast the Bradley, granted the CV9040 hasen't been tested in combat against RPG's, but I think it would be more resistant to RPG's than atleast the Bradley, not sure about how it's armor / weaponry stand up against the Warrior though.

[tankieboy 0]

Sorry it was a joke.

I will go...

[somebloke 0]

smokeblock

Just a minute...it's Somebloke....smokeblock? are you implying i'm a tabacco product?

[.granQ. 0]

smokeblock

Just a minute...it's Somebloke....smokeblock? are you implying i'm a tabacco product?

i am sorry that i didn't care enough how you spell your name after that extreme nice post you made..

and to be honest i am actually pissed..

4 pages with a nice discission about diffrent IFV's and such, and then one page with smartass comments all the time about "hey look i have nothing to add but i need to do a funny comment.."