International Politics Thread

[xawery 0]

Very nice article, I think this is the rightest statement in it.

Yes, it's quite a nice article, but there is more to this issue. As I said, I originally found this article on the opinion pages of my newspaper. Being one of the last bastions of decent journalism that it is, my paper also published another article on this topic right beneath the one I posted here, where the exact opposite point of view was being argued. To be quite frank I found the second article to be more convincing. Sadly, it is in Dutch and I really can't be arsed to translate it:)

[denoir 0]

Yepp, good article - I like articles that agree with me :

Bush is making wonders for the European unity. Too bad it had to be that way.

Plus it may be bad in the long term. While Europe now certainly is better off with bad US/EU relations and an economically weak America, I really don't think it is very good in a longer perspective. What happens now might really permanently damage US/EU relations.

Ideal for Europe would be four more years of Bush and then a radical change to somebody that really condemns the actions of the Bush administration.

[SPQR 0]

This article is as utopistic as any articles claming everything is going well by the plan in Iraq...

In Europe, some things work well, others don't. We don't have to fall in the mind trap of "Let's all gather against an identified enemy...", it is the easiest way to see things worsen.

Quote[/b] ]A Bush victory will be regarded as a popular endorsement of U.S. policy over the past four years. Simply, anti-Bushism will morph into true anti-Americanism — and our adversaries and enemies throughout the world, Europe in particular, will gather strength and become even more emboldened.

This would be the worst thing to happen. TBA is not America. You can disagree with an american about some point, and have a true friend about others. For having been in a nice baptist family in Kentucky for a month, I can say without fear I like americans, but I absolutly disagree with TBA politics...

Never to be deceived by any given stereotype. Get the brain out of the TV set.

Don't let people be the moron of another one

[xawery 0]

It's kind of ironic how you manage to speak out against stereotypes in one sentence, and claim that by liking a 'nice baptist Kentucky family' you like all Americans in another.

I quite agree with you though. While in the short run it might be beneficial for European unity to have a crap US president, these benefits are completely offset by the damage four more years of a re-invigorated TBA will do to the world as a whole.

Also, look at it this way: if it takes a moron in DC to forge EU unity, then I'm not certain that's the kind of unity I want. Up until now, the EU's growth has been based on the notion of making something better out of Europe, after centuries of intermittent war, hatred and suffering. I wouldn't like the further growth of our Union to be based on something as flimsy and fleeting as the poor administration of a country which obviously is not our enemy.

[denoir 0]

Barroso backs down over EU vote [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

A vote to approve the new European Commission has been delayed after the incoming president withdrew his proposed line-up of commissioners.

Jose Manuel Barroso said more time was needed to choose a commission that the European Parliament would approve. MEPs had threatened to veto the new commission over the inclusion of Rocco Buttiglione, who has expressed controversial views on gays and women. Mr Buttiglione had been chosen as justice and home affairs commissioner.

The new commission had been due to start work on 1 November. Incumbent commission leader Romano Prodi and his commission will now remain in office until a new team is approved, but there is no clear protocol on how to proceed.

To applause from MEPs, Mr Barroso told parliament he believed the outcome of Wednesday's vote would not have been "positive for the European institutions or the European project".

"In these circumstances, I have decided not to submit a new commission for approval today."

He added: "I need more time to look at this issue and to consult with the council... so that we can have strong support for the new commission."

Mr Barroso said he would consult EU leaders and parliament before putting forward new proposals "in the next few weeks".

Victory

The BBC's Tim Franks says MEPs who had planned to vote against the commission believe Mr Barroso's move marks a decisive shift in who wields what power inside the European Union. He says Mr Barroso has two choices: to reshuffle his commission line-up and put Mr Buttiglione in a less contentious portfolio or ask Italy to propose another candidate.

Parliament President Josep Borrell said the EU was now entering "virgin political territory".

Socialist floor leader Martin Schulz said the outcome was "a victory for the European Parliament, especially for my group".

On Tuesday, Mr Barroso had made last-ditch pleas to deputies to back his team, but refused to seek a replacement for Mr Buttiglione.

Mr Buttiglione, an Italian, recently said he regarded homosexuality as a sin and he suggested unmarried women made bad mothers. The Italian press reported on Wednesday that Mr Buttiglione had refused a request from Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to withdraw his candidacy.

Solution

Ulster Unionist MEP Jim Nicholson was among those who welcomed the decision to postpone the vote, but said the setback has not been helped by Mr Barroso's "inaction".

"This is a setback but it is not the end of the world, by any means," he said.

"However, I would have to add that MEPs will be looking at three or four other commissioners who do not appear to be up for the job."

Hans-Gert Poettering, head of the conservative European People's Party, which had been expected to support Mr Barroso's new team, said: "We are all confident to find a solution."

The 732-member parliament cannot choose to reject Mr Buttiglione alone - deputies must accept or reject the new commission as a whole. The 24 new commissioners were initially put forward by the governments of individual member states.

I think this is a very important step in the development of the EU. The directly elected European Parliament has shown itself more powerful than the Commission whose members are selected by the governments of the states.¨

I am also glad that Barroso realized that a working relation between the commission and the parliament is more important than appeasing the leaders of certain states.

As for Buttiglione, some are talking about the oppression of Christians, but that's a load of bull. If the people of Europe wanted somebody who had medieval views on the order of societcy, then they would have voted for such people. Buttiglione is fully entiteled to his views, but they do not correspond to what the people of Europe want or need as a  commissioner for justice and security.

That the Christian groups are going ape over this is expected. Worth is pointing out that he was just one of five people on the proposed commission that the parliament did not want to confirm.

Others include a Dutch liberal who was to take the portfolio of competition commissioner. During the hearings she showed a serious lack of understanding of the field she was supposed to chair.

The former Hungarian foreign minister Laszlo Kovacs (a Socialist) also failed to convince MEPs that he knew enough to become an effective European Commissioner for energy, while the former Latvian parliamentary speaker Ingrida Udre (a eurosceptic Green), designated as taxation commissioner, did not provide enough clarification about past allegations of financial irregularities.

[Bordoy 0]

I'm on the side of Rocco Buttiglione. Those are his views as a Catholic not as a politician, I believe he can still hold a job as Justice Commisioner.

Evan Peter Mandelson says he can still hold that job.

Why was that German socialist guy calling Robert Kilroy-Silk (MEP for the East Midlands) a hooligan?

[Grizzlie 0]

U see Bordoy, Rocco Buttiglione is TRIPLE "politically incorrect" - he is white, hetero and catholic. I hear Henry Ford's laughing from grave: "U can have car in every colour..." - "U can have any opinion unless it is politically correct".

And it is called democracy - u cannot be punished for your opinions....

[-33ker 0]

Because he wants to slow down EU policy by disturbing the parlamentary process. Disturbing the peace, that's what hooligans do, isn't it?

[Bordoy 0]

U see Bordoy, Rocco Buttiglione is TRIPLE "politically incorrect" - he is white, hetero and catholic. I hear Henry Ford's laughing from grave: "U can have car in every colour..." - "U can have any opinion unless it is politically correct".

And it is called democracy - u cannot be punished for your opinions....

Well you can if you live in the Nanny state known as the UK. But i dont give f**k what anyone thinks about my opinions anyway.

Even political correctness hit my college last year. The college magazine (run by students) had a joke section and one of the jokes was about, well lets just say Islam comes too mind. But the runners of the magazine were FORCED too write a retraction, because the muslims "Didn't like it." . Now if it was a joke about a white british male, would we give a toss? NO

[Bordoy 0]

Because he wants to slow down EU policy by disturbing the parlamentary process. Disturbing the peace, that's what hooligans do, isn't it?

Peace? Theres no peace in this world mate, wether on a local or international scale.

How did he disturb it anyway? I wasn't watching.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

As the Spiegel puts it

EUROPE REMAINS LIBERAL, BASTA

[xawery 0]

I'm on the side of Rocco Buttiglione. Those are his views as a Catholic not as a politician, I believe he can still hold a job as Justice Commisioner.

Evan Peter Mandelson says he can still hold that job.

Why was that German socialist guy calling Robert Kilroy-Silk (MEP for the East Midlands) a hooligan?

Bollocks. How can someone who openly says he believes homosexuality to be a sin be entrusted with the portfolio of, amongst others, anti-discrimination? That doesn't mean Buttiglione isn't a capable politician though. Just give the man another portfolio.

It has been said before, but obviously not often enough: KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS.

[Bordoy 0]

I'm on the side of Rocco Buttiglione. Those are his views as a Catholic not as a politician, I believe he can still hold a job as Justice Commisioner.

Evan Peter Mandelson says he can still hold that job.

Why was that German socialist guy calling Robert Kilroy-Silk (MEP for the East Midlands) a hooligan?

Bollocks. How can someone who openly says he believes homosexuality to be a sin be entrusted with the portfolio of, amongst others, anti-discrimination? That doesn't mean Buttiglione isn't a capable politician though. Just give the man another portfolio.

It has been said before, but obviously not often enough: KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS.

I agree religion should be kept of politics. What if he was an atheist though? Would he be deemed as an homophobic?

[xawery 0]

Nope, because he wouldn't say he thought homosexuality was a sin, simply because there is no such thing as 'sin' for an atheist.

If, under the above scenario, he would say he thought homsexuality was wrong , he certainly wouldn't fit this portfolio either. It's not about religion, but about wrong beliefs. Because yes, condemning homosexuality as a 'sin' is a wrong belief. And if that belief happens to stem from one's religion, well, it says all the more about the religion, doesn't it?

And please stop acting like the poor, innocent catholics are being the subject of 'discrimination'... because it smacks of hipocrisy. How can any system of belief that holds discriminatory views at its core even DARE claim that.

Back on topic. While I'm no fan of Neelie Croes, the Dutch woman who was supposed to receive the post of competition commissioner, Denoir's statement about her is incorrect. The EP had doubts not about her competence, but about her impartiality - as competition commissioner, she would oversee the activities of the companies she had worked at in the past. It was clear even before the hearings that this would be a cause of concern for the EP, but Croes stood her ground during the hearings quite well.

Now that the whole line-up is being withdrawn, all of the 'offending' would-be commissioners might as well be discarded/reshuffled.

[Bordoy 0]

And please stop acting like the poor, innocent catholics are being the subject of 'discrimination'... because it smacks of hipocrisy. How can any system of belief that holds discriminatory views at its core even DARE claim that.

Who's acting like that? Im not. No ones been calling the catholics, I havent (why would i?), you havent, and no one else on these boards has hopefully.

I dont think being a homo is a sin or anything like that, i just think its wrong. And I AM entitled to my own opinion on any subject matter.

Quote[/b] ]And if that belief happens to stem from one's religion, well, it says all the more about the religion, doesn't it?

So what do you think about Islam then? Just to get your opinion.

[denoir 0]

I dont think being a homo is a sin or anything like that, i just think its wrong. And I AM entitled to my own opinion on any subject matter.

Yes, you can have your opinion and he can have his. The common thing however is that neither of you is representative for Europe and hence not an acceptable choice for the role as a commissioner for justice and human rights.

You hold any political or otherwise opinion. You have the right to be a bigot, a racist or a nazi. It does however limit your chances of being approved by a body representing the citizens of EU. The EP is the political body that directly represent the people - and they did their job.

[denoir 0]

While I'm no fan of Neelie Croes, the Dutch woman who was supposed to receive the post of competition commissioner, Denoir's statement about her is incorrect. The EP had doubts not about her competence, but about her impartiality - as competition commissioner, she would oversee the activities of the companies she had worked at in the past.

It depends on how you interpret the conclusions of the hearing.

(Bloomberg: EU's Kroes Losing Parliament Backing as Antitrust Commissioner )

Quote[/b] ]

``Neelie Kroes is also a problem,'' said Pervenche Beres, who heads the European Parliament committee that vets antitrust policy. ``She didn't show during the hearing the qualities necessary for exercising the responsibilities of the competition job. We expect (Barroso) to make us a new proposal, including a new commissioner for competition.''

Their primary concern however seems indeed to have been a conflict of interest.

[hardrock 1]

I dont think being a homo is a sin or anything like that, i just think its wrong. And I AM entitled to my own opinion on any subject matter.

I don't see what's wrong in having feelings to another person. Theoretically it's totally equal if somebody tends to fall in love with his own gender or not, nature developed this men-women story to keep the human kind conserving itself. But also there are exceptions (on which evolution is based) in nature's concept, and homosexuality happens between animals as well as between humans, so why not. It's as if condemning mongoloids for not being genetically equal to "normal" (I hate to use this word) people. Which should remind us of a certain incident which happened 60 years ago . . .

Quote[/b] ]Who's acting like that? Im not. No ones been calling the catholics, I havent (why would i?), you havent, and no one else on these boards has hopefully.

lol

That reminds me of a story, might be offtopic, but I think it fits:

A man wants to borrow a hammer from his neighbour. He's already on his way when he suddenly begins to have slight misgivings. What will the neighbour think when he doesn't have his own hammer? Maybe he will laugh at him?? Or maybe he won't lend me the hammer! Why doesn't the neighbour like me?? I haven't done anything to him! We barely even know each other! ... he thinks on and on

In the end the man runs full of anger to the neighbour, hammers on his door and shouts: YOU CAN KEEP YOUR DAMN HAMMER! I DON'T NEED IT ANYWAY!!!

[Bordoy 0]

I dont think being a homo is a sin or anything like that, i just think its wrong. And I AM entitled to my own opinion on any subject matter.

Yes, you can have your opinion and he can have his. The common thing however is that neither of you is representative for Europe and hence not an acceptable choice for the role as a commissioner for justice and human rights.

You hold any political or otherwise opinion. You have the right to be a bigot, a racist or a nazi. It does however limit your chances of being approved by a body representing the citizens of EU. The EP is the political body that directly represent the people - and they did their job.

Good post, i understand now. Thanks, maybe he should hold a different postion like enviroment or something like that.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

well Barroso has surrendered-

Barroso admits team must change-bbc

My opinion is that Mr.Buttiglione is entitled to his views. Until there is some proof or evidence that his personal religious beliefs impinge upon his role as a commissioner then there is no good reason to bar him. He seems intelligent enough to be able to seperate the two.

But anyway the whole structure of the EU commission is highly questionable.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Oh yes, hello everyone who remembers me.

[Bordoy 0]

Oh yes, hello everyone who remembers me.

hey i remember you

[denoir 0]

My opinion is that Mr.Buttiglione is entitled to his views. Until there is some proof or evidence that his personal religious beliefs impinge upon his role as a commissioner then there is no good reason to bar him. He seems intelligent enough to be able to seperate the two.

His involvement in the Communione et liberazione would indicate otherwise. It's an organization with the explicit goal to get Catholic values into politics and specifically law.

Maybe he can suddenly do the exact opposite of what he has been doing so far, but it's a risk that at least I'm not happy to take.

One funny thing is how there has been a great deal of resentment in the national governments to the situation. Even those that were against Buttiglione have expressed their disliking of the situation where the EP can decide on the individual candidates.

This is of course because the commissioners are chosen by the governments of the member states. This reduces their power to make arbitrary political selections at will.

Personally, I think it could not have been better. The European Parliament that is the actually directly elected body came out as the clear winner here. This was IMO a great victory for democracy in the EU and will serve to reduce various shady deals between nations that have no correlation to what the people want.

[Grizzlie 0]

denoir, u have called it great victory of demoracy. I'm calling it great failure. Why? Because it shows tha in EP there is no place for other views than one and only right one. And it is clear signal for everybody - "If u want to be somebody in EP, u have to have correct views".

And to clarify - i'm atheist and fully aggree that gays have to have eqyal rights. But not this way, because now it seems that any repressions against gay's r punished, and against ppl who thinks different r allowed and welcomed.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Oh yes, hello everyone who remembers me.

we all remember you, goddamnit How did the sex-change surgery go? Did you recover well?