International Politics Thread

[-Snafu- 78]

That he made a mistake and missed that post? That he's human? Oh yeah that makes him as bad as Spokesperson!

[baddo 0]

Like Baddo stated earlier, Russia's actions in Georgia by far were related to NATO. We (atleast Finns and possibly Swedes aswell) have had quite harsh comments about joining into NATO, could say that they are quite openly threathining to reply with force. As long as i remember Russia's tone in this issue has not been so harsh and openly hostile as now.

I mentioned NATO, but I did not say what you claim that I said.

I just have the opinion that Russia is afraid of the NATO expansion. I think this is clear for all of us to see. And I can understand why they are afraid of a NATO expansion. If I were Russia, I would be suspicious about the NATO expansion as well.

But I don't think that necessarily is the reason why the Georgia vs. Russia war happened recently. It can be, but I didn't say so.

I have not decided if I support Finland joining NATO or not. On one hand, if we face a military crisis again, it would not be good to be left alone (again). For that, joining NATO makes sense.

Which country could be our enemy here? Norway? Estonia? Sweden?

I'm not alone if I say it would most likely be Russia. It was our Secretary of Defence who kept his famous "Russia, Russia, Russia" speech and that pretty much sums it up. And what sense would it make to fight Russia alone again. The odds are very much against us. If we would be a NATO member, would they attack us? It wouldn't be just to bully us, it would be to start a lot bigger war. So the likelyhood of them daring to attack us just to take land from us would be lower, as I see it, if we are in NATO. The price they would have to pay would be much bigger compared to if we are not in a military alliance with anyone.

But then again, Russia is our neighbour and that is not going to change any time soon I predict. Should we not respect our neighbours? I do think our neighbours need to be respected. Russia has voiced clearly that it would not be happy if Finland joins NATO. They have not threatened us, but they have said "it wouldn't be wise" or something like that as I can recall.

Respecting our neighbour includes taking their opinion into account when making important decisions like should we join NATO or not.

So where am I going with this. The responsibility of the leaders of our country is to primarily protect our interests, without making knee-jerk reactions. Maintaining good relations with Russia is as important as ever, but it must not come with a price of giving up everything else, or to put our sovereignty into danger, to just please the Russians. Friends are those who can disagree and still remain friends.

The "respect your neighbours" thing has to work both ways. We must respect Russia, and they must respect us. If they start bullying us again, then we could tell them that if they don't stop bullying us, we will join NATO.

So as long as they show to us that they respect us, and are not threatening us in any way, we have no clear reason to join NATO. If they don't want us to seek for alliance from elsewhere, then treat us well. It's a bit like in WW II: if they didn't want us to ally with Germany, then why did they attack us. Just don't do things like that again and we won't have to ally with your enemy.

Maybe in Caucasus the situation has been such that Georgia felt that it *needs* to join NATO *because* Russia is treating it like they have been treating them. If Russia would have respected them more, they would not have had so much interest in joining NATO.

[scubaman3D 0]

That he made a mistake and missed that post? That he's human? Oh yeah that makes him as bad as Spokesperson!

Its ok...he didn't have anything intelligent to say so he just took a pot shot at me.

[Balschoiw 0]

Whoopie !

Escalation !

Russia missile test heightens standoff with West

What the fuck are they after ? Tensions are building by the hour and in a short time a little spark will be enough to blow the situation. If russia interferes in the running NATO naval maneuvers the shit will hit the fan, no matter what.

Kremlin crapheads.

[Baff1 0]

They even passed law banning free protest here so they could arrest that anti war guy who kept up a vigil outside parliament.

This was refuted by Scary a while ago.

Here

He can refute what he likes.

The law has been passed.

Brian Haw has been arrested and removed.

Protests aren't banned.

Free protests are banned.

You may apply to the Police for a  lisence if you wish to protest.

[scubaman3D 0]

Whoopie !

Escalation !    

Russia missile test heightens standoff with West

They've been doing these missile tests for a while. Every time Russia feels the need to flex a little bit, they fire a missile. Its juvenile.

Its a government suffering from short-man's syndrome.

[Baff1 0]

There was no UN resolution for starting a war against Iraq. There was no UN resolution for starting a war against Yugoslavia. Breaking a UN resolution doesn't make it correct to invade. But hopefully it costs a lot counted in life and money.

Georgia started the war when they began to kill off 700 russian peace-keepers with tanks. Russia did the right thing.

The point is there were many diplomatic efforts to avert war in Iraq.

Russia didn't make any diplomatic effort to avert war in Georgia.

You simply can't equivocate what the US did in Iraq with what Russia did in Georgia. You're grasping at straws.

Russia made many diplomatic moves to avert war in Ossetia.

What are you talking about?

Some of the recent ones were blocked by West.

This isn't a new struggle.

Russia has been making no end of diplomatic moves. Including getting Georgia to sign up to a non agression treaty, which they did. (And then violated).

Not to mention the deployment of peackeepers etc etc etc.

The most recent one was Russia's diplomatic attempts to stop the EU recognising Kosovo as independant, given that it would set a dangerous precedent for South Ossetia and Azbakia and inflame the seperatist movements in those regions.

(Which of course it did, prompting them to hold another independance referendum, which Gerogia ignored and then angry disenfranchised militiamen attacked Georgian peacekeepers killing 6 and sparking Georgia's military assault).

Make no mistake. Russia has been heavily involved in trying to diplomatically resolve this issue.

It is the only outside country that has.

All the rest of us have been ignoring it so that we can get on and do business with Saakashvili without having to address anything politically inconvenient to our own ambitions.

I think there are plenty of things to equivocate between Russia's involvement in Ossetia and the war in Iraq.  

(Even more with Yugoslavia).

We can equivocate the international response for example. Everyone has denounced Russia, just as everyone denounced America for Iraq. But no one has done significantly more.

No one dares.

We can also equivocate America's desire to expand it's "democratic empire" in Iraq with it's desire to do the same in Georgia.

The are also equivalences to be found in strategic oil control.

Georgia is a gateway to the Middle East and has been historically contested by East and West before for this purpose.

We can equivocate the actions of the Leadership. Both Saddam and Saakashvili attempted to massacre their own people.

We can equivocate the national disunity in both Iraq and Georgia, with autonomous regions and seperatist movements causing repeated civil wars in both.

We can equivocate the age and the creation of both nations as their borders were drawn up by external powers in very recent times forcing rival cultures to live together under a unified government not necessarily of their choosing or political and cultural persuasion.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Russia didn't make any diplomatic effort to avert war in Georgia.

Because they do not have started this war?

Why are you ignoring what happened during the days leading up to the offensive? Russia hardly lifted a finger when the Georgians and the South Ossetians were sniping at each other.

It's traditionally not very easy to control rebels and guerilla fighting.

The same is said of peacekeepers in Lebanon, Iraq, Kashmirr, Spain, Afghanistan, Darfur, Somalia, Northern Ireland etc etc etc.

It might be a little prematurely judgemental to say that they weren't doing anything, had they been trying to do anything, no matter how hard they tried, there is no particular guarentee that the results would have been anything different.

Certainly their deployment of peacekeepers in the region is some hard physical evidence that they have been active in calming the dispute over the last 16 years.

It's not a guarentee, but at least it is solid evidence over pure conjecture alone.

Would you have been happier if they attacked Gori first perhaps? Fired a load of blockbuster artillery into Georgian towns to stop them?

There aren't any easy solutions to situations like these. Not for anyone. Russia included.

[Baff1 0]

I have to admit I am honestly perplexed what russia hopes or wants to gain from all this?

I am no fan of some of the actions of our nations in the past and present, but what Russia is doing appears to defy logic.

Perhaps something more is at stake? or is it all about "we do as we please we are still a superpower thankyou!"?

At the very least they have ended a refugee crisis in Northern Ossetia.

They also stand to gain an end to NATO expansion towards their borders.

I think it is also highly unfair to dismiss Russia's basic humanitarian intrests. They like South Ossetians.

Preventing them from dying en masse must surely be a very significant motivation for them in it's own right.

[-Snafu- 78]

They even passed law banning free protest here so they could arrest that anti war guy who kept up a vigil outside parliament.

This was refuted by Scary a while ago.

Here

He can refute what he likes.

The law has been passed.

Protests aren't banned.

Free protests are banned.

You may apply to the Police for a  lisence if you wish to protest.

Free protests are not banned. Read what the guy wrote. It's not like he refuted it with waffle but with a proper argument with evidence.

Where is your evidence to back this claim up? If that did happen you would hear about it on the media.

[scubaman3D 0]

No. Sorry. I'm not buying it.

Russia did nothing to stop the S. Ossetian rebels from attacking Georgian interests before the fighting started. Russia escalated the fighting to a whole new level. It is so blatantly obvious that this was politically motivated, I worry for those who can't see it.

Russia's diplomacy consists of massing troops at the border of a sovereign country without cause. To threaten targeting Poland with a nuclear strike if they make closer ties with the US. To pretend to be concerned for civilians and then killing hundreds of them. And to say that the Ukraine is provoking Russia closer to wrath - just like Georgia.

Its government is more analogs to a wild dog ready to attack its former pack. It can't stand to see their growing ties with the west. It is threatened by NATO without reason.

Tell me, for such a great beacon of peace, democracy, and diplomacy, why are tens of thousands of Russians leaving the country and going to the US and UK? Why do they have to pay people to have more children? Why are they allowing the recognition of dual US/Russian citizenship now? Why does corruption pervade the society at every level, from the president down to students who bribe their teachers with money and vodka for grades?

As, I've said - I travel to Russia frequently and its not as if I'm simply ignorant and have pre-conceived ideas about it.

[Baff1 0]

They even passed law banning free protest here so they could arrest that anti war guy who kept up a vigil outside parliament.

This was refuted by Scary a while ago.

Here

He can refute what he likes.

The law has been passed.

Protests aren't banned.

Free protests are banned.

You may apply to the Police for a  lisence if you wish to protest.

Free protests are not banned. Read what the guy wrote. It's not like he refuted it with waffle but with a proper argument with evidence.

Where is your evidence to back this claim up? If that did happen you would hear about it on the media.

I went to Parliament Square and Brian Haw was gone.

Not surprising really since I saw the Police arrest him on T.V.

[Second 0]

I mentioned NATO, but I did not say what you claim that I said.

Okay. Then i misread your post, sorry.

About rest of your post... I agree with many points, all i think. My NATO-opinnion is bit twisted, most of military staff are thinking that NATO is good option, and i've read more positive (and objective! ) text supporting NATO than against NATO... Then again what will Russia do if Finland joins NATO? I see this thing as big problem to Russia, a geopolitical issue with Gulf of Finland and NATO's control over it from both Estonia and Finland's coasts near Saint Petersburg. There is so much intresting and problematic issues but i'm out of energy at the moment and rusty english ain't helping.  

EDit: Text taken away

[Baff1 0]

No. Sorry. I'm not buying it.

Russia did nothing to stop the S. Ossetian rebels from attacking Georgian interests before the fighting started. Russia escalated the fighting to a whole new level. It is so blatantly obvious that this was politically motivated, I worry for those who can't see it.

Russia's diplomacy consists of massing troops at the border of a sovereign country without cause. To threaten targeting Poland with a nuclear strike if they make closer ties with the US. To pretend to be concerned for civilians and then killing hundreds of them. And to say that the Ukraine is provoking Russia closer to wrath - just like Georgia.

Its government is more analogs to a wild dog ready to attack its former pack. It can't stand to see their growing ties with the west. It is threatened by NATO without reason.

Tell me, for such a great beacon of peace, democracy, and diplomacy, why are tens of thousands of Russians leaving the country and going to the US and UK?  Why do they have to pay people to have more children? Why are they allowing the recognition of dual US/Russian citizenship now? Why does corruption pervade the society at every level, from the president down to students who bribe their teachers with money and vodka for grades?

As, I've said - I travel to Russia frequently and its not as if I'm simply ignorant and have pre-conceived ideas about it.

Conspiracy theories abound.

Who knows maybe they are true. But I prefer a little more evidence to base my conjecture upon.

I'm not sure that Russia has killed hundreds of South Ossetians. In fact this is the first I've heard.

I don't know that I consider you a valid source for this kind of information, if I hear more I'll be sure to update my opinions in this thread.

I don't see that Russia feels threatened by NATO without reason.

NATO is an organisation solely created for the purpose of military confrontation with Russia.

Similarly I don't feel NATO nations have no reason to feel threatened by Russia. Or that Eastern Europe has no reason to be alarmed by them.

That's just the way it is.

One of the scarier developments of this war has been the democratic presses inflamation of events.

Saakashvili is an example of a democratically elected warmonger, from a nation who democratically elected to break it's peace treaty and go to war with South Ossetia.

Why this is scarey is because what happened in Georgia can happen in any democratic nation.

All we need is the press whipping a fever against Russia.

The same kind of demonisatoin we saw with Saddam and then for public opinion to believe we can militarily crush them, and then one day, some bright spark will use it as an election issue.....and off we go.

The wheels set in motion.

We can already see all the would be prime ministers and presidents in waiting, queuing to announce a more confrontational approach to Russia.

Commies are evil. We are the worlds only super power. We spend 10 times more on weapons than all the others combined. Our fighters are the best. We have a missile shield.

These are all common conceits held by the U.S. populace for example. They view, as a people (not as a regime), Russia as a spent force. An evil society that they should rid the world of.

How long before an ambitious democrat puts it to the vote?

To a lesser extent it is the same in my country too. A whole generation of people who have not seen war themselves are being manipulated into an aggressive stance towards an extremely dangerous foe, that it is not in their intrests to fight.

So some dweeb can get the top job by talking tough and so newspapers have a story to sell.

It's irresponsable.

Millions of people from many nations emigrate.

People emigrate from the U.K. and the U.S. too.

Traditionally emigration heads towards the more wealthy nations, or those not under attack.

Why do you feel that Russia has to be a great beacon of Democracy?

Why do you feel that corruption in Russia is part of their motivation to intervene in Georgia, would you be willing to expand on that for me.

I don't have any personal experience of Russian corruption.

I have no idea why they are allowing dual US/Russian citizenship. I can't really see how it relates. Are you suggesting they are going to attempt to annex a U.S. enclave next. I don't follow the relevence, I'm afraid. hence the frivolity.

Of course Russia are threatening Poland with a nuclear strike. It is the correct military counter to Polands involvement in the U.S. missile shield.

They are also threatening us in Britain with the same.

You might note that we also threaten them with nuclear weapons.

This is neither rocket science nor unjust.

(And certainly not the actions of a rabid dog)

[-Snafu- 78]

They even passed law banning free protest here so they could arrest that anti war guy who kept up a vigil outside parliament.

This was refuted by Scary a while ago.

Here

He can refute what he likes.

The law has been passed.

Protests aren't banned.

Free protests are banned.

You may apply to the Police for a  lisence if you wish to protest.

Free protests are not banned. Read what the guy wrote. It's not like he refuted it with waffle but with a proper argument with evidence.

Where is your evidence to back this claim up? If that did happen you would hear about it on the media.

I was to Parliament Square and Brian Haw was gone.

Not surprising really since I saw the Police arrest him on T.V.

That's your basis for saying there are no free protests?

He was arrested earlier this year (and several others) for going against the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act. The Act does not stop free protest.

All of this was refuted by Scary in the thread I linked earlier on. Please read it.

[Baff1 0]

They arrested him for Unlawful Protestation first.

Only the charge didn't stick because the judge said his protest started before the law was passed.

The woman who was protesting with him however did get successfully prosecuted.

If you did it, you would too.

How positively shameful, that when, having failed to lock him up with a trumped up law, they went on to get him on a trumped up charge.

Serious Crime Act my arse.

He was a peace protestor not a mafia boss.

[-Snafu- 78]

Quote[/b] ] Under clause 132 of the SOCPA, authorisation must be sought from the Commissioner of the Met for protests within 1km of Parliament Square (with an exemption for Trafalgar Square) six days in advance, unless that is not reasonably practicable then no less than 24 hours. As long as the protest is correctly organised authorisation cannot be denied.

As you can see he was arrested for not meeting the requirements. If I did it I would do it by the rules.

They are not trying to shut him up. He has his own website, has appeared in the media, had his placards done as 'art' for a show and still protests.

That wasn't the main reason of the Act. If I remember correctly it was to set up a Serious Organised Crime Agency. Nothing about stopping free protest. You don't need a license or state approval or whatever. Stop misleading people into thinking the UK is North Korea.

[scubaman3D 0]

Conspiracy theories abound.

Who knows maybe they are true. But I prefer a little more evidence to base my conjecture upon.

I'm not sure that Russia has killed hundreds of South Ossetians. In fact this is the first I've heard.

Make no mistake. Russia has been heavily involved in trying to diplomatically resolve this issue.

It is the only outside country that has.

Most of your arguments are becoming ridiculous but I will address some of them.

To begin, I don't know what you mean about conspiracy theories. I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.

Ok, sorry, I should replace hundreds with "hundred and fifty or so" - because that's the estimate last I heard. Minor arguing point.  The Red Cross is working to sort out the details, I think.

It was you who made Russia out to be the only party seeking diplomacy.

You're lucky not to have first hand experience of corruption but I do - from each of my trips there. I was floored when my taxi driver bribed a cop who got him for speeding. I couldn't believe it. Now I know better. So to answer your question, its better for Russia to be an example of democracy than corruption.

Of course Russia didn't want the US to go into Iraq...there were too many "Made in Russia" labels there.  And why does every terrorist organization and rogue state in the world have Russian weapons?

Your assertion about emigration from the US is lame too. Its nothing in comparison to Russia, who's population is estimated to decrease by 0.5%/year. The death rate is out pacing the birthrate and the emigration is hardly mitigated by immigration from poorer surrounding countries. On the other hand, the population of the US increases by nearly 1%/year. The birth rate is almost 2x the death rate and there are ~3x more immigrants than in Russia. Its got to tell you something.

Also, your comparisons between the 2008 South Ossetian war and the US war in Iraq are really stretching it. That shit sounds like conspiracy theory right there.

Anyways, I'm sorry. I'm becoming tired of this topic and I'm starting to feel foolish for continuing to post here.

[igor drukov 0]

Scubaman, I sympathise - but it's people like you who make this board an interesting read. Thanks for sharing your views and your experience.

For a less West-centered, less geopolitical, less apolcalyptical, yet uncomplacent, approach of the conflict, Yulia Latynina's analysis may be of some interest. Let's hope she won't follow Politkovskaya...

[baddo 0]

For a less West-centered, less geopolitical, less apolcalyptical, yet uncomplacent, approach of the conflict, Yulia Latynina's analysis may be of some interest. Let's hope she won't follow Politkovskaya...

Did you notice that the http://www.rferl.org/ says that they are funded by the U.S. Congress?

And did you notice that they also say that their corporate headquarters is in Washington D.C.?

http://www.rferl.org/info/facts/200.html

Quote[/b] ]RFE/RL is an independent, international news and broadcast organization to Eastern and Southeastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Central and Southwest Asia (click here for a map). It is funded by the U.S. Congress through the Broadcasting Board of Governors.

<snip>

RFE/RL operates under the oversight of the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG), an independent, autonomous entity responsible for all U.S. government and government-sponsored, nonmilitary, international broadcasting. Under IRS rules, RFE/RL is a private, nonprofit Sec. 501© 3 corporation. Chartered in Delaware, it receives federal grants as a private grantee.

The mission of the BBG is to promote freedom and democracy through the open communication of information and ideas. While the "Broadcasting Board of Governors" is the legal name given to the Federal entity encompassing all U.S international broadcasting services, the day-to-day broadcasting activities are carried out by the individual BBG international broadcasters:

Alhurra

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty

Radio Free Asia

Radio Sawa

Radio/TV Marti

Voice of America

Broadcasting Board Governors:

http://www.bbg.gov/

Quote[/b] ]On October 1, 1999, the Broadcasting Board Governors (BBG) became the independent federal agency responsible for all U.S. government and government sponsored, non-military, international broadcasting. This was the result of the 1998 Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act (Public Law 105-277), the single most important legislation affecting U.S. international broadcasting since the early 1950s.

Every week, more than 175 million listeners, viewers, and internet users around the world turn-on, tune-in, and log-on to U.S. international broadcasting programs. While the "Broadcasting Board of Governors" is the legal name given to the Federal entity encompassing all U.S international broadcasting services, the day-to-day broadcasting activities are carried out by the individual BBG international broadcasters: the Voice of America (VOA), Alhurra, Radio Sawa, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL), Radio Free Asia (RFA), and Radio and TV Martí, with the assistance of the International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB).

<snip>

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty

Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty is a private, nonprofit, U.S. government-funded radio broadcaster to Southeastern and Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Central and Southwestern Asia. RFE/ RL broadcasts more than 1,000 hours of programming in 28 languages every week. All RFE/ RL broadcasts are also streamed live and on-demand over the Internet; audio, video and text in English and the broadcast languages is available from its website, http://www.rferl.org.

Listeners in countries stretching from Belarus to Bosnia and from the Arctic Sea to the Persian Gulf rely on RFE/RL's daily news, analysis, and current affairs programming to provide a coherent, objective account of events in their region and the world.

It makes me smile to see the words "independent", "private" and "U.S. government-funded" mentioned so closely together

In fact it makes me  

Sorry, my intention is not to laugh at your post. I read the article and started looking at the website, asking "Who is behind this website?" and then what I found out made me laugh.

[scubaman3D 0]

Refute the ideas, don't attack the publisher.

We can't go down this road. By this logic, we shouldn't trust anybody who is funded by somebody - which is everyone.

[igor drukov 0]

@ Baddo

Interesting, though somewhat misleading, research. Just so we get the right bias clear (we're all grown-up to understand that everything is biased):

Yulia Latynina writes for Yezhednevny zhurnal and Novaya Gazeta, which are newspapers close to Kasparov's party, The Other Russia.

Her article has been quoted and translated by a website financed by the US Congress (I'll take your word for it, Baddo, I haven't checked).

I thought it was interesting to mention that point of view - but let's take it for what it is, shall we?

[WazZzaaa! 0]

Quote[/b] ]US may have staged Georgian conflict - Putin

In an interview with CNN Russia’s Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has said the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict may have been staged to secure a victory for one of the presidential candidates in the U.S. He says preliminary reports show that U.S. citizens may have been present in the combat zone.

“We have serious reasons to believe that American citizens were right at the heart of the military action. This would have implications for American domestic policy. If this is confirmed, we will have grounds to suspect that somebody in the U.S. has created this conflict to aggravate the situation and create a competitive advantage for one of the presidential candidatesâ€.

Russia’s Prime Minister also commented on the media coverage of the recent events.

“As far as the perception of these events by the general public goes, it depends not only on politicians, but also on how artful they are in controlling the mass media. And our American colleagues do this much better than we do and there's a lot we can learn from themâ€.

Putin stressed that Russia did not attack and cannot be portrayed as an aggressor.

“We didn’t attack anyone, we were attacked and therefore we need guarantees that we won’t be attacked again, and that our citizens won't be killed. They are trying to present us as aggressorsâ€.

The Prime Minister has given a detailed chronology of the events between August 7 and 10.

“On 7 August, at 14:42, the Georgian peacekeepers left the headquarters of the peacekeeping forces under the pretext that they'd received orders from their commanders to leave their posts, and they never returned.

One hour later, heavy artillery shelling began.

At 22:35 a massive bombardment of Tsklhinval started. At 22:50 the transfer of Georgian ground troops started to the combat area. At the same time Georgian field hospitals were set up.

And at 23:30 the Brigadeer General commanding the Georgian peacekeeping forces announced that Georgia has declared a war against South Ossetia. They announced this publicly, looking straight into the TV cameras.

At that point we tried to contact the Georgian leadership, but everyone refused to talk to us.

At 12:45 AM on the 8th of August the Georgian commander repeated his statement. So who attacked whom?â€

The former Russian president reiterated that the country has ‘no intention of attacking anyone, or of fighting a war with anyone’.

“For eight years while I was President I often heard one and the same question – what place does Russia think it should occupy in the world? We are a peace-loving state and want to co-operate with all our neighbours and other states. But if someone thinks they can just come in and kill us, and that our place is in the cemetery, these people should think of the consequences of such policiesâ€.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29626/video

Quote[/b] ]U.S. citizen was among Georgian commandos

A U.S. passport was found in a building in South Ossetia occupied by Georgian troops, a Russian military spokesperson revealed on Thursday. After Russian peacekeepers cleared the heavily defended building, a passport belonging to a Texan named Michael Lee White was discovered inside.

Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff Anatoly Nagovitsyn showed photocopies of the passport to media in a press briefing on Thursday.

“There is a building in Zemonekozi - a settlement to the south of Tskhinval that was fiercely defended by a Georgian special operations squad. Upon clearing the building, Russian peacekeepers recovered, among other documents, an American passport in the name of Michael Lee White of Texas," said Nagovitsyn.

Neither the owner of the passport nor his remains were found at the scene, despite a thorough search.

"I do not know why he was there, but it is a fact that he was in the building, among Georgian special forces troops,†Nagovitsyn said.

The briefing was delivered on the same day Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told CNN, "We have serious reasons to believe that American citizens were right at the heart of the military action". Putin said the conflict in South Ossetian may have been planned to benefit one of the U.S. presidential candidates.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29636/video

More news @ www.russiatoday.com

[baddo 0]

The source http://www.rferl.org/ can not call itself "independent" or "private". That's a ridiculous statement.

Of course, I read the article *first*, and it makes interesting points, but I am not in a position to say whether it contains The Truth or not. There is nothing in the article which I could succesfully refute, but then again how do I know.

What I can do as an effort to either believe the article more or less, I can check who runs that news source. If it is run by the U.S. Congress then that doesn't increase the trust I have in that source. In my opinion it is not an independent, private source what it claims to be.

During the Georgia vs. Russia conflict, I have not trusted Russian or Georgian news sources either. My estimation is that it will take a long time until we get to know an accurate picture of what actually happened there. Currently there is a lot of propaganda thrown around from both sides, and I do think the U.S. has its own interests to protect as well so I can not take their word for it either.

I trust the people from my country who go to the spot and report directly, but even then there is a cloud making it difficult to see are they really getting the right picture of what is going on. They can see "OK there is a bombarded apartment block in the town of Gori or Tshinvali" but so what, *who* bombarded which house, still is not answered.

[scubaman3D 0]

US may have staged Georgian conflict - Putin

Old news. The Russian propaganda machine has been turning this bunk out since the fighting started.

Its only now that the western media has picked up on it and they are giving a stage to bold-faced lies.