Spokesperson 0 Posted February 19, 2008 The growth is a lot higher in Cuba. But when I compare economies I wouldn't compare developed countries with undeveloped such. The US and Cuba has had completely different starting conditions, natural resources etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 20, 2008 The growth is a lot higher in Cuba. But when I compare economies I wouldn't compare developed countries with undeveloped such. The US and Cuba has had completely different starting conditions, natural resources etc. Show the growth rate. Since you are not familar with implication of growth rate here are two possible ways an economy can grow at higher rate. 1. the economy is at low level, so any growth can be greater due to being compared as percentage of such low level. This is consistent with growth in many asian countries in 50s - 70s. There grwoth was around 7% or more, but as they became larger economic nations, the return diminshes and is not lower than that. 2. something happened so that they managed to efficiently overhaul the fundamentals and make it more efficient. I highly doubt that the second one is the one that describes Cuba's economy. This is the same country that expelled some westerners because they took photo of slums in Havana. You said compared to neighboring nations, and US, whethere you deny it or not is a neighboring nation. In fact it is close enough to use a boat to move. If you want to limit to "undeveloped" country, which one? Show me the numbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokesperson 0 Posted February 20, 2008 Starting with 2004: 5% 11.8% 12.5% 7.5% If you add up that here you'll find that Cuba has surpassed it's 1980 levels and that it's neighbours are far beyond economically. And apart from that Cuba has a good free education and healthcare system. No starvation, full employment, no homeless, no malaria etc. Only country in the world with sustainable development (WWF). 2% live in slums (UN-Habitat). 35.5% in the rest of South America http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png We're talking about Haiti, the Dominican Rep, Guatemala, Nicaragua and those countries as neighbours with same conditions. I.e. colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, climate, natural resources, population etc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 20, 2008 Starting with 2004: 5% 11.8% 12.5% 7.5%If you add up that here you'll find that Cuba has surpassed it's 1980 levels and that it's neighbours are far beyond economically. As I said in my previous post, when there is nothing much to begin with, you get a good economic increase rate. On top of that the estimate for Cuba's GDP is just that estimate. They don't allow other agencies to actually audit there records, so they have freedom to increase their numbers as they see fit. But according to wiki and IMF and World Bank, in nominal GDP, (millions of USD) US 13,194,700 Mexico 839,182 Columbia 135,836 Venezuela 181,862 Cuba 44,540 Dominican Rep. 30,581 Guatemala 30,299 Costa Rica 21,466 El Salvador 18,306 Panama 17,097 Nicaragua 5,301 Haiti 4,473 Kind of goes against your own image linked below as Dominican Republic was shown to have higher per capita. More interestingly, CIA fact book says Dominican Republic 85,400 Puerto Rico 77,410 Guatemala 67,450 Costa Rica 55,950 Cuba 51,110 El Salvador 35,970 Panama 29,140 Nicaragua 18,170 Haiti 15,820 So anything goes with Cuba's nominal GDP. But one thing for sure is that Cuban economy how great it is, is still not as great as its neigbors. It is only somewhere inbetween its neighbors. Quote[/b] ]And apart from that Cuba has a good free education So is US, Canada, Mexico. Quote[/b] ]and healthcare system. only for preventative healthdcare system at best, and not for anything that is for complex such as diabetes. Quote[/b] ] No starvation, full employment, no homeless, no malaria etc. Reminds me of a communist propaganda. There are starvations, there is FORCED full emplyment, and there are homeless. And just about other nations around the area have no problem with malaria. As for unemployment, USSR had that done too. Look what happened to them Quote[/b] ] Only country in the world with sustainable development (WWF). So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. Quote[/b] ] 2% live in slums (UN-Habitat). 35.5% in the rest of South America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ums.png Intersting. According to the wiki map, there is no data coming from Cuba(or US). Perhaps Cuban government does not allow such data to be released to begin with. Quote[/b] ]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png We're talking about Haiti, the Dominican Rep, Guatemala, Nicaragua and those countries as neighbours with same conditions. I.e. colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, climate, natural resources, population etc keep making up the criteria until you get what you want. Simple truth of the matter is that Cuban economy is hard to estimate, and such estimation is very subject to what Cuban economy wants it to be shown as. Mexico has similar climate too. But Costa Rica seems to be smaller than Cuba too. So at best, the Cuban economy is not as great as it seems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tovarish 0 Posted February 21, 2008 Wonder what Tovarish would say about this. He's pretty much confirmed in paper what has been practical reality for the past year and a half. The statement was just to show that he's left power on his own terms and avoid any chaos should he pass away, but Raul's been in the driver's seat for quite a while now. He's a self professed fan of the Chinese way of doing things, and is making changes very gradually. Raul also seems more driven by practicality than by ideology. Castro has described the changes that have happened in Cuba over the past couple of decades (legalization of the U.S. dollar, a complete switch from agriculture to tourism, limited private enterprise - farmers markets, family restaurants, hostels) being as painful as "having to cut off an arm to save the rest of the body". Raul on the other hand has openly admitted there is a problem with government corruption and has taken steps to weed it out. He has loosened visa requirements, and admitted that the average monthly wage of $19 a month is not enough to live on and solutions must be found, without the drama. Not to mention his expressed willingness to normalize relations with the US, but of course that will not happen as long as the Cuban population in Miami still clings to a cold war mentality, and politicians whore themselves out for their votes. (Ironically enough I have been considering moving there within the next year or two, 15+ Canadian winters are more than enough for any Cuban) In the nearer future, I intend to spend roughly a month - either in July or August in Cuba (and not in a resort), so I will have an opportunity to witness any immediate changes myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marc15yo 0 Posted February 21, 2008 i saw the castro resigning thing on the news. They made it seem like it was not such a big deal. Is it supposed to be? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tovarish 0 Posted February 21, 2008 i saw the castro resigning thing on the news. They made it seem like it was not such a big deal. Is it supposed to be? To quote my last post: Quote[/b] ]He's pretty much confirmed in paper what has been practical reality for the past year and a half. The statement was just to show that he's left power on his own terms and avoid any chaos should he pass away, but Raul's been in the driver's seat for quite a while now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Sphere 0 Posted February 21, 2008 The Cuban economy is a lot better than that of its market-oriented neighbours. Prove it. I'm betting that US is better than Cuba, and so is Mexico and other nations. RalphWiggum, what are you talking about here? About nations? If you're talking about nations then I'm 1000% sure Us nation, with you at the helm, is no better than cuban. And as is obvious you have no clue what you're talking about, you're typical US american, and you're at best on same level as Spokesperson, only on oposite (ideological) bank: And apart from that Cuba has a good free education So is US, Canada, Mexico. Bullshit. Anyone knows of which 'quality' is US educational system, and how free (of charge) it is. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]and healthcare system. only for preventative healthdcare system at best, and not for anything that is for complex such as diabetes. And you US americans, with your healthcare system, would know. Besides, which country have 'efficient healthcare system' against diabetes? Administering insuline is not really a rocket science you know. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ] No starvation, full employment, no homeless, no malaria etc. Reminds me of a communist propaganda. There are starvations, there is FORCED full emplyment, and there are homeless. And just about other nations around the area have no problem with malaria. As for unemployment, USSR had that done too. Look what happened to them Reminds me on american capitalistic-imperialistic propaganda. Starvations are everywhere, also in US, and it's ten times better forced full employment than chronical, on the capital and profit based unemplyment with no social note, at least in my book, and in US you have for a full nation of homeless people. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ] Only country in the world with sustainable development (WWF). So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. You're demanding from others to prove their point, but yourself are proving nothing, or only that Cuba is no different from countries you listed. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ] 2% live in slums (UN-Habitat). 35.5% in the rest of South America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ums.png Intersting. According to the wiki map, there is no data coming from Cuba(or US). Perhaps Cuban government does not allow such data to be released to begin with. What's interesting here is that there's no data available from the US, and don't tell me now there're no slums and ghetos in the US of friggin' A. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png We're talking about Haiti, the Dominican Rep, Guatemala, Nicaragua and those countries as neighbours with same conditions. I.e. colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, climate, natural resources, population etc keep making up the criteria until you get what you want. Same goes to you. Simple truth of the matter is that Cuban economy is hard to estimate, and such estimation is very subject to what Cuban economy wants it to be shown as. Mexico has similar climate too. But Costa Rica seems to be smaller than Cuba too.So at best, the Cuban economy is not as great as it seems. Simple truth is that you americans shouldn't gave a f**k about cubans economy, their political system and way of living, that you should to mind your own business, and not to participate Cuba as your own courtyard or playground or whatever, and to let them be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddmatt 1 Posted February 21, 2008 Simple truth is that you americans shouldn't gave a f**k about cubans economy, their political system and way of living... And neither does a large part of the rest of the world. Cuba's economy is tiny, why should most people care about it? Their way of living isn't so wonderful either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 21, 2008 The Cuban economy is a lot better than that of its market-oriented neighbours. Prove it. I'm betting that US is better than Cuba, and so is Mexico and other nations. RalphWiggum, what are you talking about here? About nations? If you're talking about nations then I'm 1000% sure Us nation, with you at the helm, is no better than cuban. Is that why many people come to US instead of Cuba? US is better than Cuba in most ways and that's why they are coming to US. I'm wondering why Mexico nationalities try to goto US more often than Cuba. Quote[/b] ]And as is obvious you have no clue what you're talking about, you're typical US american, and you're at best on same level as Spokesperson, only on oposite (ideological) bank: No, I gave facts(numbers of GDP above) and others. Youa re the one who is not providing any fact here. Quote[/b] ]Bullshit. Anyone knows of which 'quality' is US educational system, and how free (of charge) it is. So how many Nobel prize did Cuba and US wiln? the quality of basic education(from childhood to 18) may not be far better than that of Cuba's it is still better IMO. Quote[/b] ]And you US americans, with your healthcare system, would know. Besides, which country have 'efficient healthcare system' against diabetes? Administering insuline is not really a rocket science you know. US has a lot of treatment for diabetes. It doe not have a CURE(no one does) but we have a system where people can freely engage in attempts to take care of themselves. Administering insuline is not a rocket science but coming up with one was. Glibek is another drug that Cubans did not make. Quote[/b] ]Reminds me on american capitalistic-imperialistic propaganda. Starvations are everywhere, also in US, and it's ten times better forced full employment than chronical, on the capital and profit based unemplyment with no social note, at least in my book, and in US you have for a full nation of homeless people. Did I say starvation is everywhere? Stop making false accusations. US unemplyment rate for last 10 years has been less than 5% or so, which is pretty darn good. Forced 100% employment worked so well with communist block countries, right? And prove that US have a nation full of homeless people. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ] Only country in the world with sustainable development (WWF). So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. You're demanding from others to prove their point, but yourself are proving nothing, or only that Cuba is no different from countries you listed. I asked Spokesperson to prove his point with data which he marginally, if at best, showed. I presented my proof already in forms of GDP data. His argument was that Cuba is the most(if not only) sustainable economic growth which I counter argued that there are other regions where a nation does have sustainable growth. Above listed nations do have that. Quote[/b] ]What's interesting here is that there's no data available from the US, and don't tell me now there're no slums and ghetos in the US of friggin' A. Oh absolutely so at best Spokesperson's argument is moot. I bet you think US is the country where slums are 90% of the residents right? There are slums in US, but it is really small. And NO ONE deports them for taking photos of them. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png We're talking about Haiti, the Dominican Rep, Guatemala, Nicaragua and those countries as neighbours with same conditions. I.e. colonialism, neo-colonialism, imperialism, climate, natural resources, population etc keep making up the criteria until you get what you want. Same goes to you. So what criteria did I use? Simple truth is that you americans shouldn't gave a f**k about cubans economy, their political system and way of living, that you should to mind your own business, and not to participate Cuba as your own courtyard or playground or whatever, and to let them be.I'm sorry but who brought this argument? Spokesperson did all I did was reply to his argument. funny how you try to limit US's interest. US minds it own business, rest of the world starts complaining about it, when US takes interest in other's business, they complain about it. A nation has to keep its eyes on neightbors. Perhaps your country should do the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Necromancer- 0 Posted February 21, 2008 A nation has to keep its eyes on neightbors. Perhaps your country should do the same. The problem is that the US doesn't always keep the eyes on neighbours only. The US interferes with internal politics and economies everywhere, even after the cold war, creating puppet states with barely any fundamental social, economic and political stability. Not that it is possible in any way to make Iraq and Afghanistan a stable country in 50 years or so, because of the local population having a "tribal" mentality towards themselves and others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokesperson 0 Posted February 21, 2008 What?? Are you counting and comparing GDP between the US and Cuba, and other nations? Ever heard of GDP/capita of countries with the same (starting) conditions? That's completely pointless. Bigger countries have bigger GDPs. Naturally. The US has like 20 times more inhabitants. It's one of the biggest countries in the world, and highly developed after hundreds of years of independence and exploitation of other countries like Cuba. US, Mexico, etc has no free education. Why do americans and US-americans go to Cuba to study for free? If the healthcare is that bad. Why do US americans go to Cuba in order to get free treatment? And cheap drugs? Most things on Cuba are a lot cheaper. You can buy a lot more with a dollars worth in pesos on Cuba than what's possible in the US. The Cuban GDP/capita is 3 times more worth (when compared to dollars) in purchase power. The GDP/capita counted in dollars is therefore around 3 times higher. Due to the embargo the value of the cuban peso compared to the dollar is very low. Why do a lot of US-americans move to Cuba? Why do people want to go to Cuba from the US? Why do people hijack planes just to go to Cuba? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings Cuba exterminated malaria thanks to money being put into for that cause. Why has Cuba a higher literacy rate than the US? Why has Cuba a lower infant mortality rate than the US? In countries like Haiti and the Dom. Republic Malaria is a big problem. It isn't profitable enough to eradicate that disease. So full employment is bad? It's forced? People don't want to work? There is no homelessness on Cuba. There is no starvation on Cuba? Why? Because Cuba isn't capitalist. Cuba is a non-liberal democracy ruled by and in the interests of the people. The US capitalists and imperialists can't accept this because that system is a big threat and limits their freedom to exploit other people by making money by merely owning stocks and factories. They produce propaganda, anti-communist movies, they own the press, military, police, politicians etc. Quote[/b] ]So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. No, Cuba is the ONLY country in the world that has sustainable development. This according to the WWF. For instance: http://www.ecosherpa.com/news....lopment So where did I get my 2% in slums to begin with? I said my source was UN-Habitat. That's the UN. According to the UN, more people live in slums in the US than in Cuba. See for yourself: http://earthtrends.wri.org/searcha....ID=1311 But get the facts. Cuba is a third world country. But it's achieved a great deal, and it's achieved more than many developed countries like the US in many areas. That's remarkable. A third world country manages better than the US. Cuba does its best in its situation of pressure. Nobel prizes? Jesus. Cuba hasn't as high living standards as the US, but the cuban system is a lot better. Many have tried. But it's only in modern age the slaves of the owning classes have been able to successfully overthrow their masters and seize power. Castro, one of the last true politicians, deserves a good retirement. I wish him a long and happy life because of what he accomplished both in Cuba, to the benefit of the Cuban people, and in the rest of the world. Despite what the capitalist-run press says about him he will remain a true humanist and hero. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supah 0 Posted February 22, 2008 What?? Are you counting and comparing GDP between the US and Cuba, and other nations?Ever heard of GDP/capita of countries with the same (starting) conditions? That's completely pointless. Bigger countries have bigger GDPs. Naturally. The US has like 20 times more inhabitants. It's one of the biggest countries in the world, and highly developed after hundreds of years of independence and exploitation of other countries like Cuba. US, Mexico, etc has no free education. Why do americans and US-americans go to Cuba to study for free? If the healthcare is that bad. Why do US americans go to Cuba in order to get free treatment? And cheap drugs? Most things on Cuba are a lot cheaper. You can buy a lot more with a dollars worth in pesos on Cuba than what's possible in the US. The Cuban GDP/capita is 3 times more worth (when compared to dollars) in purchase power. The GDP/capita counted in dollars is therefore around 3 times higher. Due to the embargo the value of the cuban peso compared to the dollar is very low. Why do a lot of US-americans move to Cuba? Why do people want to go to Cuba from the US? Why do people hijack planes just to go to Cuba? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings Cuba exterminated malaria thanks to money being put into for that cause. Why has Cuba a higher literacy rate than the US? Why has Cuba a lower infant mortality rate than the US? In countries like Haiti and the Dom. Republic Malaria is a big problem. It isn't profitable enough to eradicate that disease. So full employment is bad? It's forced? People don't want to work? There is no homelessness on Cuba. There is no starvation on Cuba? Why? Because Cuba isn't capitalist. Cuba is a non-liberal democracy ruled by and in the interests of the people. The US capitalists and imperialists can't accept this because that system is a big threat and limits their freedom to exploit other people by making money by merely owning stocks and factories. They produce propaganda, anti-communist movies, they own the press, military, police, politicians etc. Quote[/b] ]So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. No, Cuba is the ONLY country in the world that has sustainable development. This according to the WWF. For instance: http://www.ecosherpa.com/news....lopment So where did I get my 2% in slums to begin with? I said my source was UN-Habitat. That's the UN. According to the UN, more people live in slums in the US than in Cuba. See for yourself: http://earthtrends.wri.org/searcha....ID=1311 But get the facts. Cuba is a third world country. But it's achieved a great deal, and it's achieved more than many developed countries like the US in many areas. That's remarkable. A third world country manages better than the US. Cuba does its best in its situation of pressure. Nobel prizes? Jesus. Cuba hasn't as high living standards as the US, but the cuban system is a lot better. Many have tried. But it's only in modern age the slaves of the owning classes have been able to successfully overthrow their masters and seize power. Castro, one of the last true politicians, deserves a good retirement. I wish him a long and happy life because of what he accomplished both in Cuba, to the benefit of the Cuban people, and in the rest of the world. Despite what the capitalist-run press says about him he will remain a true humanist and hero. Here is a message from the owning class, what I hear from cuba is mainly having to fight off prostitutes willing to do anything for a handfull of dollars. If your workers utopia really existed why does that happen? Your kind are full of lies, the truth is never on the left or on the right but in between. Cuba isnt a lovely wonderland of nice and bliss. Why do you think people risk their lives on flimsy rafts and boats never designed to carry as many people? Because life under castro is as great? The cuban system has brought very mixed fortunes to its people over the last years. I grew up in a liberal society ... I am a whole lot better of then the cuban people both financially and socially. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 22, 2008 What?? Are you counting and comparing GDP between the US and Cuba, and other nations?Ever heard of GDP/capita of countries with the same (starting) conditions? That's completely pointless. Bigger countries have bigger GDPs. Naturally. The US has like 20 times more inhabitants. It's one of the biggest countries in the world, and highly developed after hundreds of years of independence and exploitation of other countries like Cuba. Nope.GDP is more related to how the economy is not by the number of people. If it is related to number of people India and China already surpassed US a few decades ago. For countries that had independence and colonies, Taiwan and South Korea is doing pretty good...wait they were not independent until 1945 from Japanese. Quote[/b] ]US, Mexico, etc has no free education. Why do americans and US-americans go to Cuba to study for free? Proof? I didn't have to pay for a thing until I graduated highschool, and I have NEVER heard of anyone going to Cuba for free school. Don't just make up things. I've heard Cubans coming to america while risking their lives and baseball players defecting. And my two exaples are historical truth. Quote[/b] ]If the healthcare is that bad. Why do US americans go to Cuba in order to get free treatment? And cheap drugs? Most things on Cuba are a lot cheaper. You can buy a lot more with a dollars worth in pesos on Cuba than what's possible in the US. The Cuban GDP/capita is 3 times more worth (when compared to dollars) in purchase power. The GDP/capita counted in dollars is therefore around 3 times higher. Due to the embargo the value of the cuban peso compared to the dollar is very low. Absolute rubbish. Americans goto Canada if they go, and although it is not the best it certainly is working far better for chronic diseases. The GDP/capita for cuba is estiamted at $6866 while in US it is $39,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita Quote[/b] ]Why do a lot of US-americans move to Cuba? Why do people want to go to Cuba from the US? Why do people hijack planes just to go to Cuba?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-US_aircraft_hijackings Let's look at the incidents. From the link out of 100 incidents listed, 40 of them were somewhat deemed to be credible enough to support your "wonderful Cuba" argument. Even your link provides the reasons. Terrorism, extortion, political asylum. I bet most of the 68-70s incidents were extortion from airlines, rather than trying to live in Cuba. In fact in many of those cases, hijackers returned to US via Canada or Mexico voluntarily. But wait! look at the hijackings of 90s and 2000s. Most of them are from Cuba to US, which completely debunks your argument. Quote[/b] ]Cuba exterminated malaria thanks to money being put into for that cause. Why has Cuba a higher literacy rate than the US? Why has Cuba a lower infant mortality rate than the US? In countries like Haiti and the Dom. Republic Malaria is a big problem. It isn't profitable enough to eradicate that disease. Source? Quote[/b] ]So full employment is bad? It's forced? People don't want to work? See what happened to USSR. There economy was so good that they are now controlling US, right? Except that they longer exists. Look at the lines to buy basic life essentials at the end of Soviet era. That's what the full employment is. Quote[/b] ]There is no homelessness on Cuba. There is no starvation on Cuba? Why? Because Cuba isn't capitalist. Lol back it up with facts. Notice how Cuban information is really hard to get because Cuban gov't doesn't want to give its figures honestly? Quote[/b] ]Cuba is a non-liberal democracy ruled by and in the interests of the people. The US capitalists and imperialists can't accept this because that system is a big threat and limits their freedom to exploit other people by making money by merely owning stocks and factories. They produce propaganda, anti-communist movies, they own the press, military, police, politicians etc. More stupid drivel. Here's a food for thought. so it is ok to have a "non-liberal democracy" if people are fed? and just what is "non-liberal democracy" if you are not at liberty to vote, it is NOT a democracy. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]So US, UK, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Germany, France, and many more. No, Cuba is the ONLY country in the world that has sustainable development. This according to the WWF. For instance: http://www.ecosherpa.com/news....lopment Again, the source you provided does not give the original source WWF. It just says so. That website is full of shit and Taiwan, South Korea, and other Asian nations have sustainable development. Quote[/b] ]So where did I get my 2% in slums to begin with? I said my source was UN-Habitat. That's the UN. According to the UN, more people live in slums in the US than in Cuba.See for yourself: http://earthtrends.wri.org/searcha....ID=1311 I gave you a source which refutes this. The same UN data says there are no data to point otherwise. Again, you are using a very questionable group. Quote[/b] ]But get the facts. Cuba is a third world country. But it's achieved a great deal, and it's achieved more than many developed countries like the US in many areas. That's remarkable. A third world country manages better than the US. Cuba does its best in its situation of pressure. Then how come it is still a third world country? did internet come out of Cuba? Did Glibeck come out of Cuba? How many medicince does Cuba invent per year? Quote[/b] ]Nobel prizes? Jesus. Seems like you can't argue with that one, so decided to deny it. Quote[/b] ]Cuba hasn't as high living standards as the US, but the cuban system is a lot better. How can the system be better if it doesn't have such high standards? Quote[/b] ]Many have tried. But it's only in modern age the slaves of the owning classes have been able to successfully overthrow their masters and seize power. So did former eastern european countries, and look where they ended up. Look at how China is developing. They threw over the imperial systems, but now they are becoming one. No matter how much you close your ears and eyes and try to deny it, the simple matter of the fact is that Cuba is not the wonderland that you dream of. Just the fact that there are prostitutes, capitalism in its infancy, thirst for US dollar or Euro shows that Cuban system is slowly moving away from what it wanted to be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tovarish 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Proof? I didn't have to pay for a thing until I graduated highschool, and I have NEVER heard of anyone going to Cuba for free school. Don't just make up things. I've heard Cubans coming to america while risking their lives and baseball players defecting. And my two exaples are historical truth. I've mostly stayed out of this whole Cuban discussion. Partly because I have little time to dedicate to it, partly because I use in my old(er) and more cynical age I have realized things will never will be perfect and the best I can do is look out for those I care about, and partly because I've decided most people arguing about politics on the internet have already made up their minds before they post. However, I feel compelled to point out that in fact, Americans have taken advantage of free Cuban education. As far as the exodus from the island in the post Soviet years, I can only wonder how many people would not have risked their lives were it not for the embargo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 22, 2008 Proof? I didn't have to pay for a thing until I graduated highschool, and I have NEVER heard of anyone going to Cuba for free school. Don't just make up things. I've heard Cubans coming to america while risking their lives and baseball players defecting. And my two exaples are historical truth. I've mostly stayed out of this whole Cuban discussion. Partly because I have little time to dedicate to it, partly because I use in my old(er) and more cynical age I have realized things will never will be perfect and the best I can do is look out for those I care about, and partly because I've decided most people arguing about politics on the internet have already made up their minds before they post. However, I feel compelled to point out that in fact, Americans have taken advantage of free Cuban education. As far as the exodus from the island in the post Soviet years, I can only wonder how many people would not have risked their lives were it not for the embargo. And the interesting bit about that article is that there are 90 Americans there. Not a significant number. If 90 people going to Cuba to take medical school is a representation of how better Cuba's system is, then number of people who come to US for graduate school would mean something way better than that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ZG-BUZZARD 0 Posted February 22, 2008 US has a lot of treatment for diabetes. It doe not have a CURE(no one does) but we have a system where people can freely engage in attempts to take care of themselves. Actually, it is known that the pharmaceutical companies actually already HAVE a CURE for DIABETES and a whole gamut of diseases plaguing the modern society - they're just reserving it for the ultra-rich... As for Nobel prizes, it's a kind of ridiculous question - since the Nobel prize committee has always been leftist-biased... (That's why everybody was so shocked that Hesse admitted to have been an SS ) - go figure, eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commando84 0 Posted February 22, 2008 @ Hesses and Nobel prize, its a small world we live in.. I dunno i think Both Cuba and US have their advantages and disadvantages, US having extremely expensive healthcare and low social help if you get below the water but in Cuba maybe you can get help better socialy. But in Us you have more goods you can buy in the stores and stuff than in Cuba. But the weather in Cuba is warm and hot and in the Us it varies alot. What you guys think about the us satellite that the us shot down? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokesperson 0 Posted February 22, 2008 Quote[/b] ]Here is a message from the owning class, what I hear from cuba is mainly having to fight off prostitutes willing to do anything for a handfull of dollars. If your workers utopia really existed why does that happen? Your kind are full of lies, the truth is never on the left or on the right but in between. Cuba isnt a lovely wonderland of nice and bliss. Why do you think people risk their lives on flimsy rafts and boats never designed to carry as many people? Because life under castro is as great? The cuban system has brought very mixed fortunes to its people over the last years. I grew up in a liberal society ... I am a whole lot better of then the cuban people both financially and socially. I doubt anyone on this forum is a member of the owning class. You're just echoing the opinions of the owning class. There might be prostitutes on Cuba due to the increase in tourism, but on Cuba all people got a job they can live on, unlike in the US with its unemployment, double or triple jobs. Before the revolution Cuba was well known for its corruption, prostiution gambling etc. Since things have changed to the better. I'm not talking about any worker utopias. I'm a marxist and I have no utopian beliefs. It's a fact that Cuba is a country run by the people for the people. No corporations or capitalists come in between. But just because Cuba is socialist, it doesn't mean that resources, food, etc can appear out of nowhere like magic as you think things seem to work. And naturally some people go to the US in rafts, because US is a rich country. Haitians Mexicans Europeans etc move there to. Quote[/b] ]Nope.GDP is more related to how the economy is not by the number of people. If it is related to number of people India and China already surpassed US a few decades ago. For countries that had independence and colonies, Taiwan and South Korea is doing pretty good...wait they were not independent until 1945 from Japanese GDP = Gross Domestic Product. A measure of the total production in a country. More people = more production. That's why all people apart from you use GDP/capita. And if I say population influences GDP I don't mean it's the only factor. But population is essential, because without people you can't produce anything. But why don't you compare the GDP of Luxemburg to the US? Luxemburg is the richest country in the world measured in GDP/capita, but its GDP is on rank 99. I would say that most people in the country i live in have  higher living standard than most US-americans. But GDP is still lower. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....our.png Quote[/b] ]Proof? I didn't have to pay for a thing until I graduated highschool, and I have NEVER heard of anyone going to Cuba for free school. Don't just make up things. I've heard Cubans coming to america while risking their lives and baseball players defecting. And my two exaples are historical truth. Make up things? So the people, US-americans, in the streets of Cuba in Oliver Stone's documentary Commandante were just made up? And you do have to pay in the US. Education is not free of charge. In Cuba all education is completely free of charge. Everything. College, university, all. Your dad doesn't have to be G Bush senior with a lot of money for you to get a good education either. But in capitalism, those who own money rule. And you do just as they tell. Bark bark. If Cuba can accomplish what it does now as a third world country, what wouldn't the US be able to accomplish if it adopted the same system? Quote[/b] ]Absolute rubbish. Americans goto Canada if they go, and although it is not the best it certainly is working far better for chronic diseases. The GDP/capita for cuba is estiamted at $6866 while in US it is $39,000]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....] Wow, so now you're saying that the US system is better because it has a higher GDP/capita than a third world country? Quote[/b] ]Source? I should put the sources in my signature. As I have to put them forth all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....2005%29 Even your own CIA factbook states that Cuba has better numbers than the US, an industrialized country. Wonder why? Literacy Rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate Look at the different countries: http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_HT.htm http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_CU.htm Malaria in Haiti, but no malaria in its neighbour Cuba?? How? Quote[/b] ]See what happened to USSR. There economy was so good that they are now controlling US, right? Except that they longer exists. Look at the lines to buy basic life essentials at the end of Soviet era. That's what the full employment is. So it worked all those years, but suddenly full employment stopped working because of the lines? There was a global economic crisis at the end of the 80ies. The Russian post soviet economy dropped after the dissolution of the USSR. People began to starve. That hadn't happened since World War 2. Quote[/b] ]Lol back it up with facts. Notice how Cuban information is really hard to get because Cuban gov't doesn't want to give its figures honestly? Oh yea, same thing with the US government then. Strange as it may seem, UN and big international organizations seem to recognize the information. Quote[/b] ]More stupid drivel. Here's a food for thought. so it is ok to have a "non-liberal democracy" if people are fed? and just what is "non-liberal democracy" if you are not at liberty to vote, it is NOT a democracy. How much do you know really? And how much do you think you know? People don't vote in Cuba? Since when? Here's your sustainable development source: http://www.cosg.org.uk/WWF_Report.htm It links to the WWF report. Quote[/b] ]I gave you a source which refutes this. The same UN data says there are no data to point otherwise. Again, you are using a very questionable group. Your wikipedia data is outdated. And for the slums I used The World Resources Institute as a source (which in turn links to UN-Habitat) which you call "very questionable group". So in what way would they favor Cuba? Don't you see that you haven't been right on one single point? You're just into wishful thinking now. Quote[/b] ]Then how come it is still a third world country? Yes how come all third world countries are thirld world countries? How come? Whose fault is it? I think they want to continue down that path. Quote[/b] ]did internet come out of Cuba? Did Glibeck come out of Cuba? How many medicince does Cuba invent per year? Pharmaceuticals is actually one of Cuba's main industries. Cuba sells patented drugs for hundreds of millions of dollars each year. Quote[/b] ]How can the system be better if it doesn't have such high standards? Because production governs the standards of living. If you have oil it doesn't matter what kind of system you have. It will still have high standards. Quote[/b] ]So did former eastern european countries, and look where they ended up. Look at how China is developing. They threw over the imperial systems, but now they are becoming one. No matter how much you close your ears and eyes and try to deny it, the simple matter of the fact is that Cuba is not the wonderland that you dream of. Just the fact that there are prostitutes, capitalism in its infancy, thirst for US dollar or Euro shows that Cuban system is slowly moving away from what it wanted to be. Most east europeans found themselves in deeper poverty and unemployment after the dissolution of socialism there. Cuba is no wonderland, it's a third world country, but it still outperforms the US in many areas. That's a great achievement. So what kind of capitalism is there on Cuba? Thirst for US-dollars? US-dollars and euros are useless on Cuba. Cuba is progressing in its own way. China also. The difference is that China isn't socialist, but a country run by marxists. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 22, 2008 And naturally some people go to the US in rafts, because US is a rich country. Haitians Mexicans Europeans etc move there to. Some poeple? 125,000 is not sime people. And that is only 1990 alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_feet,_dry_feet_policy Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Nope.GDP is more related to how the economy is not by the number of people. If it is related to number of people India and China already surpassed US a few decades ago. For countries that had independence and colonies, Taiwan and South Korea is doing pretty good...wait they were not independent until 1945 from Japanese GDP = Gross Domestic Product. A measure of the total production in a country. More people = more production. That's why all people apart from you use GDP/capita. And if I say population influences GDP I don't mean it's the only factor. But population is essential, because without people you can't produce anything. But why don't you compare the GDP of Luxemburg to the US? Luxemburg is the richest country in the world measured in GDP/capita, but its GDP is on rank 99. So how come no one is immigrating to Luxemberg en masse? Although GDP per caipta is a measure it is not the measure that gives complete picture. GDP(nominal) is somewhat better of a nation's economy. More people means does not necessarily mean that. If more people are there, then how come India's GDP per capita is lower than that of US? What other factors do you have? South Korea and Taiwan are both small enough (and crowded enough) and they have higher GDP per capita then Cuba, which by the way does not have accurate data. Quote[/b] ]I would say that most people in the country i live in have  higher living standard than most US-americans. But GDP is still lower. Even with GDP per capita, US is 4th ranked(or somewhere close). If you claim that GDP(nominal) does not give good description, but GDP per capita does, (which again is not provided by Cuba, only estimated) US out ranks a lot of nations. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Proof? I didn't have to pay for a thing until I graduated highschool, and I have NEVER heard of anyone going to Cuba for free school. Don't just make up things. I've heard Cubans coming to america while risking their lives and baseball players defecting. And my two exaples are historical truth. Make up things? So the people, US-americans, in the streets of Cuba in Oliver Stone's documentary Commandante were just made up? Or could it be that there were some people who were fanatics of Cuba was shown, but they had to find them? It's like saying there was one black soldier in the Southern military during US civil war, so the blacks were fighting for South. Quote[/b] ]And you do have to pay in the US. Education is not free of charge. Again, like what? I don't remember paying through my K-12 years. Textbooks were given, no tuition fees. Quote[/b] ]In Cuba all education is completely free of charge. Everything. College, university, all. Your dad doesn't have to be G Bush senior with a lot of money for you to get a good education either. But in capitalism, those who own money rule. And you do just as they tell. Bark bark. In California alone, there are more university that has more recognition than Cuba's university. Perhaps it is free, but as the saying goes, you get what you paid for. In Cuba they follow commandante's word or face some harsh times in jail or end up dead. bark bark. Quote[/b] ]If Cuba can accomplish what it does now as a third world country, what wouldn't the US be able to accomplish if it adopted the same system? US accomplished more than what USSR did(which was the model for Cuban system), and is not a third world country. Nations that once shunned capitalism is now adopting it, such as China, eastern block nations, and even Russia. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Absolute rubbish. Americans goto Canada if they go, and although it is not the best it certainly is working far better for chronic diseases. The GDP/capita for cuba is estiamted at $6866 while in US it is $39,000]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....] Wow, so now you're saying that the US system is better because it has a higher GDP/capita than a third world country? GDP per capita was YOUR criteria that YOU brought out to show that Cuba was better. Now that I use it you are now trying to discredit it? Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Source? I should put the sources in my signature. As I have to put them forth all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....2005%29 Even your own CIA factbook states that Cuba has better numbers than the US, an industrialized country. Wonder why? See a funnier trend down the list? Singapore, Japan, Iceland, CZ, France, UK all have less infant mortality rate than Cuba. And one of the common things about those nations is that they have industrialized economy. You are right in the sense that Cuba has less mortality rate than US, but you are not getting the bigger picture, and it is that overall, the system that works is not Cuban system. Quote[/b] ]Literacy Rate:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate Let's see, 99.8% for Cuba, and 99% for US. 0.8% difference, which may or may not be statistically different. Another interesting finding. Notice that top 10 nations are not exactly top 10 nations in GDP/capita or GDP(nominal)? There is more to being a good place to live, and literacy rate, while could be one of them is still not able to portray the best picture. Quote[/b] ]Look at the different countries:http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_HT.htm http://www.nathnac.org/ds/c_pages/country_page_CU.htm Malaria in Haiti, but no malaria in its neighbour Cuba?? How? No malaria in US, Canada, and on top of that the only two thing that Cuba has over Haiti is malaria. Perhaps the Cuban gov't worked on malaria, but just can't do a thing about others? Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]See what happened to USSR. There economy was so good that they are now controlling US, right? Except that they longer exists. Look at the lines to buy basic life essentials at the end of Soviet era. That's what the full employment is. So it worked all those years, but suddenly full employment stopped working because of the lines? There was a global economic crisis at the end of the 80ies. The Russian post soviet economy dropped after the dissolution of the USSR. People began to starve. That hadn't happened since World War 2. Wrong. USSR's disapeerance was not the reason for economic problem. It was economic problem that killed USSR. Centralized planning, like full employment is not going to automatically change to best economy. If you look at other nations such as France and other European nations they don't have full-emplyment, and yet are still doing fince especially compared to Cuba. How so? Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Lol back it up with facts. Notice how Cuban information is really hard to get because Cuban gov't doesn't want to give its figures honestly? Oh yea, same thing with the US government then. Strange as it may seem, UN and big international organizations seem to recognize the information. GDP and other datas are avaialbe as you saw, which Cuba does not provide. How's so. While US may not release its secret data, it does release datas that are for everyone's consumption including UN. Cuba's GDP is an estimate at ebst as they refuse to enter the numbers for international community. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]More stupid drivel. Here's a food for thought. so it is ok to have a "non-liberal democracy" if people are fed? and just what is "non-liberal democracy" if you are not at liberty to vote, it is NOT a democracy. How much do you know really? And how much do you think you know? People don't vote in Cuba? Since when? They vote but what is the alternative? Probably more than you do. Democracy means it is RULED BY PEOPLE. If they(the people) are not at liberty to RULE, then it is NOT a democracy. Here is what liberal-democracy means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy Quote[/b] ]a representative democracy in which the ability of the elected representatives to exercise decision-making power is subject to the rule of law, and moderated by a constitution that emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals, and which places constraints on the leaders and on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised against the rights of minorities (see civil liberties). A liberal democracy has elections, a multiplicity of political parties, political decisions made through an independent legislature, and an independent judiciary, with a state monopoly on law enforcement. So you just admitted that Cuba is a non-liberal democracy, which meas it goes against all of those. So much for voting, when you ahve only one party to chose from. Quote[/b] ]Here's your sustainable development source:http://www.cosg.org.uk/WWF_Report.htm It links to the WWF report. http://assets.panda.org/downloads/living_planet_report.pdf Read the report carefully. Starting with the fact that that particular website has fantasy of Cuba, sustainable growth theory states that it is "fulfilment of human needs while maintaining the quality of the natural environment indefinitely". It does not mean the economy will grow(as your earlier assertion), but will still have the same ratio of economic, social, and environemntal factors. Which by the way to quantify is a very skeptical measure. Quote[/b] ]Cuba alone did, based on the data it reports to the United Nations. Changes in footprint and HDI from 1975 to 2003 are illustrated here for some nations. During thisperiod, wealthy nations such as the United States of America significantly increased their resource use while increasing their quality of life. This did not hold for poorer nations, notably China or India, where significant increases in HDI were achieved while their per person footprints remained below global per person biocapacity. Comparing a country’s average per person footprint with global average biocapacity does not presuppose equal sharing of resources. Rather it indicates which nations’ consumption patterns, if extended worldwide, would continue global overshoot, and which would not. The footprint and the HDI need supplementing by other ecological and socioeconomic measures – freshwater scarcity and civic engagement, for example – to more fully define sustainable development. Cuba won't submit GDP data but they will submit data for something that would make them look great. How can that be? The sustained deveopment data takes economy into its calculation, but Cuba will not submit a economy data, GDP, but will sumbit the sustained development data. Talk about selective data selection. And US increased their quality of life. so it is more likely that US has better quality of life then Cuba. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]I gave you a source which refutes this. The same UN data says there are no data to point otherwise. Again, you are using a very questionable group. Your wikipedia data is outdated. It's the same wikipedia. Quote[/b] ]And for the slums I used The World Resources Institute as a source (which in turn links to UN-Habitat) which you call "very questionable group". So in what way would they favor Cuba? According to their own mission statement http://www.wri.org/about/mission they are an environmental think tank. consdering that Cuba tried to come up with a way to show themselves off using questionable data(remember that their data was provided for WWF's work, but not avaialbe to other institutions.), it would look like Cuba is a dream island. Their focus is environment, not human. There is a difference, if you want environment, you'd still need to have goods and bads of mother nature, which included malaria, which by the way, is now gone from Cuba. Quote[/b] ]Don't you see that you haven't been right on one single point? You're just into wishful thinking now. I think I was more right than you were -GDP, Economy -Education system -Nobel prize -Hijackings -Slum percentage Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Then how come it is still a third world country? Yes how come all third world countries are thirld world countries? How come? Whose fault is it? I think they want to continue down that path. According to you, Cuba is a third world country with better system. If it is a better system 1) why is everyone moving away from it? 2)why is Cuba still a third world country? Your argument fails at the very basic level. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]did internet come out of Cuba? Did Glibeck come out of Cuba? How many medicince does Cuba invent per year? Pharmaceuticals is actually one of Cuba's main industries. Cuba sells patented drugs for hundreds of millions of dollars each year. Which is as big as US's billions of dollars? Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]How can the system be better if it doesn't have such high standards? Because production governs the standards of living. If you have oil it doesn't matter what kind of system you have. It will still have high standards. So you admit that US has better system and standards of living since production of US is more than that of Cuba's? Just because you have a raw material doesn't mean it gives you high standards of living. It is knowing what to do with the raw material that also matters. If oil gives hgh standards of living regardless of system, why wasn't Middle Eastern nations ruling the world between 1400s and 1800s? Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]So did former eastern european countries, and look where they ended up. Look at how China is developing. They threw over the imperial systems, but now they are becoming one. No matter how much you close your ears and eyes and try to deny it, the simple matter of the fact is that Cuba is not the wonderland that you dream of. Just the fact that there are prostitutes, capitalism in its infancy, thirst for US dollar or Euro shows that Cuban system is slowly moving away from what it wanted to be. Most east europeans found themselves in deeper poverty and unemployment after the dissolution of socialism there. Cuba is no wonderland, it's a third world country, but it still outperforms the US in many areas. That's a great achievement. Like the ones you posted above which is quite questionable to begin with? Just because Cuba may out perform in some areas don't mean that Cuba is better than US. Switzerland has far better production skills than US, but they are not definitely better than US. Quote[/b] ] So what kind of capitalism is there on Cuba? Thirst for US-dollars? US-dollars and euros are useless on Cuba. Believe it or not, Cuba loves money. They don't mind having US dollars and Euros on their side. Their tourism industry is a significant part of their economy. Again, let's go back to one of your links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba Quote[/b] ]a largely state-controlled, planned economy overseen by the Cuban government, though there remains significant foreign investment and enterprise and in describing tourism Quote[/b] ]In the mid 1990s tourism surpassed sugar, long the mainstay of the Cuban economy, as the primary source of foreign exchange. Tourism figures prominently in the Cuban Government's plans for development, and a top official cast it as the "heart of the economy". Havana devotes significant resources to building new tourist facilities and renovating historic structures for use in the tourism sector. Cuban officials estimate roughly 1.6 million tourists visited Cuba in 1999 with about $1.9 billion in gross revenues.The rapid growth of tourism has had widespread social and economic repercussions in Cuba. This has led to speculation of the emergence of a two-tier economy[3] and the fostering of a state of tourist apartheid on the island. This situation was exacerbated by the influx of dollars into the Cuban economy during the 1990s, potentially creating a dual economy based on the dollar (the currency of tourists) on the one hand, and the peso on the other. Scarce imported goods - and even some of local manufacture, such as rum and coffee- could be had at dollars-only stores, but were hard to find or unavailable at peso prices. As a result, Cubans who earned only in the peso economy, outside the tourist sector, were at an economic disadvantage. Those with dollar incomes based upon the service industry began to live more comfortably. This widened the gulf between Cubans' material standards of living, in conflict with the Cuban Government's long term socialist policies.[4] Quote[/b] ]Cuba is progressing in its own way. China also. The difference is that China isn't socialist, but a country run by marxists. Yup. Slowly giving themselves up to capitalism. The difference you mentiones is somewhat moot as Marxism was the father of Communism which was adopted by both Cuba and China. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spokesperson 0 Posted February 23, 2008 You're lying. The 125 000 went with the Mariel Boatlift. That's what your source says even. This was April 1980. They were all free to leave. And it's a small part of the total amount of inhabitants on the island. In the 90ies people went by boat to the US as well, due to the post-soviet economic situation in Cuba. Since the economic situation has improved dramatically and few people go to the US. After the USSR was gone the traditional trading partners of Cuba were gone too. Quote[/b] ]So how come no one is immigrating to Luxemberg en masse? Although GDP per caipta is a measure it is not the measure that gives complete picture. GDP(nominal) is somewhat better of a nation's economy. More people means does not necessarily mean that. If more people are there, then how come India's GDP per capita is lower than that of US? What other factors do you have? South Korea and Taiwan are both small enough (and crowded enough) and they have higher GDP per capita then Cuba, which by the way does not have accurate data. Because Luxemburg has no free immigration. You can't live there permanently (or sometimes even work) unless you speak that accent of german. GDP alone is not a good measure of an economy at all. You seem to be uneducated. I thought you said your schools were good. GDP per capita is equivalent to GDP per person. So this sentence has no sense: Quote[/b] ]If more people are there, then how come India's GDP per capita is lower than that of US? Quote[/b] ]What other factors do you have? South Korea and Taiwan are both small enough (and crowded enough) and they have higher GDP per capita then Cuba, which by the way does not have accurate data. This is how GDP is measured: GDP = consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports), That's all your factors. Much people, higher consumption. Government spending and investments scale as well. But if you have good infrastructure, good education you can increase productivity. There are many reasons why South Korea and Taiwan have higher GDP/capita than Cuba. One if them is called the embargo. It's difficult to compare countries that recieved major investments from the west in order to counter "communism" with countries in the Carribean, and especially Cuba. The cuban soil is similar to that of Haiti and other countries in the region. (Sure, most southern parts of the US will work ok too). Natural resources, climate, diseases are basically the same. But Cuba hasn't been a truly independent nation for long. Before indepence it was a US colony and before that a spanish one. Colonies are exploited by their masters. Most of the third world consists of ex- or neocolonies. Quote[/b] ]Even with GDP per capita, US is 4th ranked(or somewhere close). If you claim that GDP(nominal) does not give good description, but GDP per capita does, (which again is not provided by Cuba, only estimated) US out ranks a lot of nations. Yes, US is a rich country. It's a developed country, and the only superpower. But it still does lag behind Cuba in an amount of aspects. That's remarkable. It shows Cuba has a more efficient system. And efficiency is the way to go. The US acts like as if it was the middle ages. One fundamental basic of a successfull system that offers people a good standard of living (not only material) is a free universal healtchare system. The US lacks this. The schools aren't free of charge even. (I'm not talking about public elementary schools here). Quote[/b] ]In California alone, there are more university that has more recognition than Cuba's university. Perhaps it is free, but as the saying goes, you get what you paid for. In Cuba they follow commandante's word or face some harsh times in jail or end up dead. bark bark. Well of course California has more universities with its 40 million inhabitants. You're making very strange comparisons. Apart from that opposition is allowed in Cuba. You can express your opinions freely without getting shot like Kennedy, King or Malcolm X or imprisoned. Quote[/b] ]US accomplished more than what USSR did(which was the model for Cuban system), and is not a third world country. Nations that once shunned capitalism is now adopting it, such as China, eastern block nations, and even Russia. No definately not. USSR accomplished a lot more than the US. If you have a race and start 100m behind the rest and just get 1m behind the winner you accomplish more. USSR was industrialised in the 30/40ies, it suffered huge losses to industry and population in many wars. 1917 Russia was an agrarian country. They started in the dust, but could send up satellites 40 years later. That's remarkable, again. Quote[/b] ]GDP per capita was YOUR criteria that YOU brought out to show that Cuba was better. Now that I use it you are now trying to discredit it? No that was not my criteria. I just pointed out that GDP/capita is a better measurement than GDP. Quote[/b] ]See a funnier trend down the list? Singapore, Japan, Iceland, CZ, France, UK all have less infant mortality rate than Cuba. And one of the common things about those nations is that they have industrialized economy. You are right in the sense that Cuba has less mortality rate than US, but you are not getting the bigger picture, and it is that overall, the system that works is not Cuban system. Yes, but those are developed countries. They don't share the same history as Cuba. Cuba is a world leader in that aspect, the infant mortality rate (it's interesting because it's a measure of the healthcare standard of a country). And it's a developing nation. Quote[/b] ]Wrong. USSR's disapeerance was not the reason for economic problem. It was economic problem that killed USSR. Centralized planning, like full employment is not going to automatically change to best economy. If you look at other nations such as France and other European nations they don't have full-emplyment, and yet are still doing fince especially compared to Cuba. How so? Centralized planning is much more rational, democratic and it made the USSR economical miracle possible. Highest growth rates in history. Centralized planning has made Cuba what it is today. Why are you keeping to compare developed nations to Cuba? It should be natural if a developed country is better than Cuba in some aspect. But if it's the other way around it's another story. Kuwait does fine economically compared to Cuba too. But that doesn't say anything, that comparison has no meaning. And why would there be malaria in the US? The climate isn't suitable for that disease. Cuba had malaria before the revolution, but after massive health-care campaigns they eradicated it. It wasn't made earlier because it wasn't profitable. Planned economies see to needs of the population as a whole, not just some owning class. Quote[/b] ]GDP and other datas are avaialbe as you saw, which Cuba does not provide. How's so. While US may not release its secret data, it does release datas that are for everyone's consumption including UN. Cuba's GDP is an estimate at ebst as they refuse to enter the numbers for international community. The reason why Cuba is greyed out on that list is because it's a planned economy or the one making it didn't bother looking it up. The whole GDP measurement is actually also a free market measurement. Healthcare in a planned socialist economy isn't seen as a commodity for instance. One has to count in purchase power. Secondly, the cuban peso is worthless counted in US dollars. That's because of the embargo. If you measure GDP in euro it would be a bit easier though. Quote[/b] ]They vote but what is the alternative?Probably more than you do. Democracy means it is RULED BY PEOPLE. If they(the people) are not at liberty to RULE, then it is NOT a democracy. Here is what liberal-democracy means. There are plenty of alternatives. There is about 10 000 seats distributed locally in total in Cuba and about 30 000 candidates. Capitalism is not compatible with democracy. Quote[/b] ]Read the report carefully. Starting with the fact that that particular website has fantasy of Cuba, sustainable growth theory states that it is "fulfilment of human needs while maintaining the quality of the natural environment indefinitely". It does not mean the economy will grow(as your earlier assertion), but will still have the same ratio of economic, social, and environemntal factors. Which by the way to quantify is a very skeptical measure That's incorrect. Growth isn't excluded anywhere. Cuba has sustainable development according to WWF, and high growth rates at the same time. If Cuba doesn't report GDPs: what's this? http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2007/enero07/lun8/1asamblea.html Quote[/b] ]It's the same wikipedia. No, wikipedia shows no information. My source shows information for all countries in the world. But you think my source is Cuba-friendly, of all nations. However you didn't look up my source. Because it links to UN-Habitat in turn: "United Nations Human Settlements Programme (UN-HABITAT). 2003. Slums of the World: The face of urban poverty in the new millennium?. Available on-line at: http://www.unhabitat.org/publication/slumreport.pdf. Nairobi: UN-HABITAT." The publication: http://www.unhabitat.org/pmss/getPage.asp?page=bookView&book=1124 So UN-Habitat is Cuba aligned? Quote[/b] ]I think I was more right than you were-GDP, Economy -Education system -Nobel prize -Hijackings -Slum percentage No, you don't measure standards of living with GDP. The bigger country, the more population the higher GDP. Cuba has a better education system. It's free for all. Not for the wealthy like in the US. Everything is free of charge for all. Knowledge counts. Not money. I haven't disputed the fact that the US has more nobel prizes than Cuba. But that doesn't say anything. How many nobel prizes has Angola got? You got to compare countries in the same league Most hijackings have been made to Cuba as I pointed out. The slum percentage is still 2% Cuba, compared to 5.8% for the US. Quote[/b] ]According to you, Cuba is a third world country with better system. If it is a better system 1) why is everyone moving away from it? 2)why is Cuba still a third world country? Your argument fails at the very basic level. As I said. Any system is limited to the conditions of reality. If you have no oil it doesn't matter what kind of system you have, you still won't have any. The US backed dictatorship Kuwait isn't better just because it's richer and people go there. It's a better system because Cuba works better than Haiti or any other South American country that has equal starting conditions. Everybody moving away from Cuba? So just because some boats come once or twice per year everyone is moving? Then whole Mexico or whole Europe must be in the US. But naturally some people look for higher living standards, they think they can make a fortune. Cuba is still a third world country (like the rest of South America) because of the sanctions. It took US two hundred years or so to become industrialized. Cuba hasn't had that amount of time since it got free. Quote[/b] ]Which is as big as US's billions of dollars? US is a big country with around 25 times the inhabitants of Cuba. The amount of square miles per capita is also higher. A might produce 10 bottles of milk with 10 workers. B produces 2 bottles of milk with one worker. That makes B better. Quote[/b] ]So you admit that US has better system and standards of living since production of US is more than that of Cuba's? Just because you have a raw material doesn't mean it gives you high standards of living. It is knowing what to do with the raw material that also matters. If oil gives hgh standards of living regardless of system, why wasn't Middle Eastern nations ruling the world between 1400s and 1800s? No US has a system that's worse. The material living standard is higher, that's the only thing. Middle East wasn't "ruling the world"/it didn't have use of oil in the 1400s because oil hadn't been discovered and there was no use for it then. Why would anyone want to use oil back then? What are you thinking? Now those countries are among the richest in the world. Quote[/b] ]Believe it or not, Cuba loves money. They don't mind having US dollars and Euros on their side. Their tourism industry is a significant part of their economy.Again, let's go back to one of your links The text you bolded means the convertible peso (the one tourists use) is tied to the value of the dollar, nothing less nothing more. The standard peso normal citizens use can't be exchanged for dollars or euros. It isn't convertible. Foreign investment doesn't mean there's capitalism on Cuba. The Cuban people owns at least 50% of all companies based in Cuba. Quote[/b] ]Like the ones you posted above which is quite questionable to begin with? Just because Cuba may out perform in some areas don't mean that Cuba is better than US. Switzerland has far better production skills than US, but they are not definitely better than US. What kind of production skills? Why isn't Switzerland better than the US? That country at least has a parliament and regular referendums. That's more democratic than the US. The Cuban system is democratic and socialist. That compared to the US capitalist system. Cuba is run in the interests of the people. The US is run in the interests of the capital. If you don't have money or support the influential corporations you have no chance in getting elected. You have to please the capitalists and the corporations. The president is just their puppet. In cuba there are no such capitalists, that's why Cuba has been able to surpass the US in many humanitarian areas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supah 0 Posted February 23, 2008 Quote[/b] ]Here is a message from the owning class, what I hear from cuba is mainly having to fight off prostitutes willing to do anything for a handfull of dollars. If your workers utopia really existed why does that happen? Your kind are full of lies, the truth is never on the left or on the right but in between. Cuba isnt a lovely wonderland of nice and bliss. Why do you think people risk their lives on flimsy rafts and boats never designed to carry as many people? Because life under castro is as great? The cuban system has brought very mixed fortunes to its people over the last years. I grew up in a liberal society ... I am a whole lot better of then the cuban people both financially and socially. I doubt anyone on this forum is a member of the owning class. You're just echoing the opinions of the owning class. There might be prostitutes on Cuba due to the increase in tourism, but on Cuba all people got a job they can live on, unlike in the US with its unemployment, double or triple jobs. Before the revolution Cuba was well known for its corruption, prostiution gambling etc. Since things have changed to the better. I'm not talking about any worker utopias. I'm a marxist and I have no utopian beliefs. It's a fact that Cuba is a country run by the people for the people. No corporations or capitalists come in between. But just because Cuba is socialist, it doesn't mean that resources, food, etc can appear out of nowhere like magic as you think things seem to work. And naturally some people go to the US in rafts, because US is a rich country. Haitians Mexicans Europeans etc move there to. I used to manage a chain of restaurants owned by my family. Since then I have been bought out, I think I own quite a considerable load of crap. The one thing coming in between in cuba appears to be the government who take very good care of themselves but forget about the people. Resources, food etc. are Grown by farmers, mined by miners or oil driller people. Those people are either self employed (in case of farmers) or work for large corporations. Their goal in doing this is to turn a profit, the goal of the people doing the logistics is to turn a profit as is the goal of the person selling it to you the end consumer. Everyone in this chain makes a buck out of the product, money which finds its way down to you the end consumer because more often then not the middle men employ alot of consumer you's. This is not an evil proces, it's the one that works the best. I think I have quite a strong grasp of how the economy works having been an entrepeneur myself for a couple of years. The reason why people risk their lives to escape to the US is because they either are dissidents (Hey nice, you dont agree with me so your a criminal) or because they are fed up with being poor. communisme, in all its splinter forms, is based on applaudable thought. That everybody should be equal and that noone should have nothing. Sadly it also drains people of initiative and doesnt not take into account the ethical weakness of men and invariably leads to despotisme and fear based police states. Capitalisme isnt perfect either, like I said before, truth is never on one side alone. You need to have a social security system, a safety net as it were. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted February 24, 2008 You're lying. The 125 000 went with the Mariel Boatlift. That's what your source says even. This was April 1980.They were all free to leave. And it's a small part of the total amount of inhabitants on the island. In the 90ies people went by boat to the US as well, due to the post-soviet economic situation in Cuba. Since the economic situation has improved dramatically and few people go to the US. After the USSR was gone the traditional trading partners of Cuba were gone too. Lying? Mariel Boatlift was a mass movement of Cubans who departed from Cuba's Mariel Harbor for the United States between April 15 and October 31, 1980. I typed in 1990 because I was using numbers above alphabets and pressed one 9 instead of 8. But the simple truth that there were more Cubans leaving Cuba to get to US then Americans trying to Cuba still stands. While compared to population of Cuba of 11 miliion(2007), 125,000 is 1%. 1% of population trying to leave their country is not insignificant. On the contrary, the number of Americans in Cuba is far less, especially compared to population of US which is about 300 million. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]So how come no one is immigrating to Luxemberg en masse? Although GDP per caipta is a measure it is not the measure that gives complete picture. GDP(nominal) is somewhat better of a nation's economy. More people means does not necessarily mean that. If more people are there, then how come India's GDP per capita is lower than that of US? What other factors do you have? South Korea and Taiwan are both small enough (and crowded enough) and they have higher GDP per capita then Cuba, which by the way does not have accurate data. Because Luxemburg has no free immigration. You can't live there permanently (or sometimes even work) unless you speak that accent of german. GDP alone is not a good measure of an economy at all. You seem to be uneducated. I thought you said your schools were good. GDP per capita is equivalent to GDP per person. So this sentence has no sense: Quote[/b] ]If more people are there, then how come India's GDP per capita is lower than that of US? Here's a recap of what happened. 1. You used GDP per capita to show that Cuba had better system. 2. I showed you that it is susceptible to number of population. I suggested that nominal GDP is the one to look at if you want to compare countries. 3. You claimed that Luxemburg has higher GDP per capita, so nominal GDP is not a good measure. You also claimed that higher GDP is result of having higher number of population. 4. To illustrate that population is not the most significant factor, I came up with India's example. As India has 1 billion people, your logic would indicate that India would have bigger nominal GDP than US. However US has more GDP than India. So your argument that Quote[/b] ]GDP = Gross Domestic Product. A measure of the total production in a country. More people = more production. fails.Thus the reason for you NOT using GDP is now useless. and now you just dug your own grave for your argument Quote[/b] ]This is how GDP is measured: GDP = consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports), That's all your factors. Much people, higher consumption. Government spending and investments scale as well. But if you have good infrastructure, good education you can increase productivity. So you just admitted that having good infrastructure, good education increases productivity, not just population alone. This is why US has a large GDP and China has smaller GDP. US has GDP of 13 trillion USD while China has 10.17 trillion USD. According to your previous logic, more population=higher GDP. China has 1.3 billion people, which is about 3-4 times more than US. However, US has more GDP because the other factors such as infrastructure and good education. So once again, your argument that nominal GDP should not be used because it is susceptible to population fails. Quote[/b] ]There are many reasons why South Korea and Taiwan have higher GDP/capita than Cuba. One if them is called the embargo. It's difficult to compare countries that recieved major investments from the west in order to counter "communism" with countries in the Carribean, and especially Cuba. The cuban soil is similar to that of Haiti and other countries in the region. (Sure, most southern parts of the US will work ok too). Natural resources, climate, diseases are basically the same. But Cuba hasn't been a truly independent nation for long. Before indepence it was a US colony and before that a spanish one. Colonies are exploited by their masters. Most of the third world consists of ex- or neocolonies. Embargo on Cuba is effective for US citizens and companies only. All other nations are free to deal with Cuba. That's why Cuban cigars are illegla in Us, but you can get them from Mexico or Canada. So US embargo is only affecting relationship between Cuba and US. Cuba is free to make trades with rest of the world. While Cuban history in 20th century is not a happy one it was NOT a US colony. No matter how you want to depict it, Cubans were not annexed into US territory, and US troops withdrew from Cuba in 1902 exept for lease of Guantanamo bay, and even the Platt Amendment was repealed in 1934. On top of that here's something for you. When US took over in 1902, the infrastructure of Cuba was vastly improved and public health program begin. So US, even though being a big influence on Cuba, was for the interst of Cuban people(and US too). In case of Taiwan and South Korea both were colonies of Japan, and before that under the influence of Chinese. Korea went through a war and that devastated their economy. When you compare economy of South Korea at 1950s and Cuba in the same era Cuba had more than South Korea. Yet 50 years later it turned around. El Salvador, which is usually considered as a thrid-wrold country was not a "US colony" but it has harder time bringing its GDP up. Quote[/b] ]Yes, US is a rich country. It's a developed country, and the only superpower. But it still does lag behind Cuba in an amount of aspects. That's remarkable. It shows Cuba has a more efficient system. And efficiency is the way to go. The US acts like as if it was the middle ages. One fundamental basic of a successfull system that offers people a good standard of living (not only material) is a free universal healtchare system. The US lacks this. The schools aren't free of charge even. (I'm not talking about public elementary schools here). There might be some aspects that US would be lagginf behind, but overall picture suggests that US is still better off than Cuba. If you try to argue that just because Cuba is better than US becuase of a few things, here is some list of things that US excells compared to Cuba. -internet/computer -economy -healthcare options/treatment/development -science -arts -food safety -automobiles -planes -military and there are more that I can go on. If you want to talk about efficiency, US is more efficient than Cuba in many ways. For example, internet commerce allows goods to be bought from longer geographical distances, and infrastructure efficiently delivers it. The production of goods are more efficient where mass production can happen, and still sustain its production. While US still lacks universal health care most people still have access to hospitals, and in case of ER, it is still required that patients be treated. The price for service may be too high, but it is not as bad as you'd think. This is someone who has been to an ER, and seen doctors a few times since then. And believe it or not, I paid every bills that came along. Funny how you try to say Quote[/b] ]The schools aren't free of charge even. (I'm not talking about public elementary schools here). Public schools are integral part of US system, and it's free. You are trying to claim that it only goes to elemetary level, but in fact it goes all the way to highschool, and only thing that is not free is college and above. Even so there are thousands of community colleges which are practically free due to low costs, and there are government assistance to students. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]In California alone, there are more university that has more recognition than Cuba's university. Perhaps it is free, but as the saying goes, you get what you paid for. In Cuba they follow commandante's word or face some harsh times in jail or end up dead. bark bark. Well of course California has more universities with its 40 million inhabitants. You're making very strange comparisons. Apart from that opposition is allowed in Cuba. California, being a state of US has more schools that are more reknown than Cuba's natonal University. Each US state has their own state universities and I bet they are just as good if not better than Cuba's. Quote[/b] ] You can express your opinions freely without getting shot like Kennedy, King or Malcolm X or imprisoned. Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald on his OWN decision. However you want to believe the simple fact is that it was not a political hit, but Oswald's own search for grandeur. Malcolm X was shot by same blacks that were told that Malcolm Shabazz(Malcolm X's new name by then) was a traitor to blacks. Keep grasping for straws. Cuba doesn't have any other dissidents because the result is death or prison. Here in US you can oppose as much as you want and voice your opinions. Cuba doesn't even allow other political parties. Quote[/b] ]No definately not. USSR accomplished a lot more than the US. If you have a race and start 100m behind the rest and just get 1m behind the winner you accomplish more. USSR was industrialised in the 30/40ies, it suffered huge losses to industry and population in many wars. 1917 Russia was an agrarian country. They started in the dust, but could send up satellites 40 years later. That's remarkable, again. So did Taiwan and South Korea which still exists, unlike USSR. USSR accomplished so much that they abandoned their system and endedup taking capitalism in, right? Quote[/b] ]Yes, but those are developed countries. They don't share the same history as Cuba. Cuba is a world leader in that aspect, the infant mortality rate (it's interesting because it's a measure of the healthcare standard of a country). And it's a developing nation. Infant mortality rate is a part of healthcare system, but not the complete picture. Just because you are good at typing things doesn't mean you are good at all things. The criticism of Cuba's infant mortality rate is that it was not different from pre-Castro years. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...._trends Read the comparison and its shorcomings on method of collecting data. Quote[/b] ]Centralized planning is much more rational, democratic and it made the USSR economical miracle possible. Highest growth rates in history. Centralized planning has made Cuba what it is today. Why are you keeping to compare developed nations to Cuba? It should be natural if a developed country is better than Cuba in some aspect. But if it's the other way around it's another story. Kuwait does fine economically compared to Cuba too. But that doesn't say anything, that comparison has no meaning. Central planning has a major problem. It cannot account for every thing. Also it is NOT democratic. Being democratic means that people decide, not central agency. The "miracle" of USSR is now over. It does not exists anymore. While forcing many resources to one sector will achieve some gains, it is offset by the fact that others will suffer. You are constantly bringing up USSR as the miracle that happened, as as such centralized planning is the way to go. So you are comfortable with using USSR as a point to compare how effective centralized planning is, but you don't think that is a fair way to compare with other develpoed nation? By the way USSR and its miracle is gone. Quote[/b] ]And why would there be malaria in the US? The climate isn't suitable for that disease. Cuba had malaria before the revolution, but after massive health-care campaigns they eradicated it. It wasn't made earlier because it wasn't profitable. Planned economies see to needs of the population as a whole, not just some owning class. Actually it is profitable for the dictators too. By having healthy population, you are able to have more able-bodied men which in turn can be used for whatever purpose you see fit as a dictator. Quote[/b] ]The reason why Cuba is greyed out on that list is because it's a planned economy or the one making it didn't bother looking it up. The whole GDP measurement is actually also a free market measurement. Healthcare in a planned socialist economy isn't seen as a commodity for instance. One has to count in purchase power. Secondly, the cuban peso is worthless counted in US dollars. That's because of the embargo. If you measure GDP in euro it would be a bit easier though. The reason why Cuba's GDP data is not available is because Cuban government doesn't release it and is not allowing others to look at it. Cuba had no problems with giving information to UN about how "sustainable" it is but it does not provide actual GDP data to UN. See the problem? They are withholding it. According to you centralized economy knows everything. How come if they know everything, they don't report it to UN, while most other nations do? Health care system also incurs costs. So it is part of overall calculation. Look at your own post Quote[/b] ]GDP = consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports), When government spends money on health care system, it goes in to "government spending" The peso might not be calculated into a dollar, but as you said, they can be calculated as Euros, and Euos can be calculated as dollars. So Cuban GDP can be calculated. Quote[/b] ]There are plenty of alternatives. There is about 10 000 seats distributed locally in total in Cuba and about 30 000 candidates. Capitalism is not compatible with democracy. No communist party is the only party allowed. No alternatives. Those seats yo umentioned are for communist party only, not by different political parties. Capitalism is compatible with democracy. Communism is NOT compatible with democracy because it has the giant centralied planning. Quote[/b] ]Read the report carefully. Starting with the fact that that particular website has fantasy of Cuba, sustainable growth theory states that it is "fulfilment of human needs while maintaining the quality of the natural environment indefinitely". It does not mean the economy will grow(as your earlier assertion), but will still have the same ratio of economic, social, and environemntal factors. Which by the way to quantify is a very skeptical measure Quote[/b] ]That's incorrect. Growth isn't excluded anywhere. Cuba has sustainable development according to WWF, and high growth rates at the same time. WWF is not an economic source. it is about wild life. The concept of sustainable development is an attemp to look at how we can balance the growth of natural resources with use of them. ONly thing it says is that one nation is not using its own natural resources faster than using it. WWF said US and other wealthy nations also have good record Quote[/b] ]wealthy nations such as the United States of America significantly increased their resource use while increasing their quality of life. So US is just as good as Cuba if not better. Quote[/b] ]If Cuba doesn't report GDPs: what's this? http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2007/enero07/lun8/1asamblea.html did you notice that 1. no third-partyt verification is given 2. the nominal GDP or GDP per capita is not given? In other words, just another selectiec reporting of Cuba's Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]It's the same wikipedia. No, wikipedia shows no information. My source shows information for all countries in the world. But you think my source is Cuba-friendly, of all nations. However you didn't look up my source. Because it links to UN-Habitat in turn: "United Nations Human Settlements Programme (UN-HABITAT). 2003. Slums of the World: The face of urban poverty in the new millennium?. Available on-line at: http://www.unhabitat.org/publication/slumreport.pdf Nairobi: UN-HABITAT." The publication: http://www.unhabitat.org/pmss/getPage.asp?page=bookView&book=1124 So UN-Habitat is Cuba aligned? I looked at each source that you provided and I provided my own. Go back to links I provided, and I can show you where in wiki I got my data from. The PDF file above does not go anywhere, and the closest I can find is about their publication which you can buy from the internet, not the actual PDF file. I bet you did not even looked at the link. It's broken. I already fixed the link and looked for PDF file, which you clearly did not. You probably got the link from somewhere and decided to just copy and paste. I'm putting some time and effort to prove my side, but you are clearly not doing it. UN-habitat merely got the numbers from Cuba and used it. There is no telling how accurate that data is. It's like a robber saying he did not steal. Quote[/b] ]Cuba has a better education system. It's free for all. Not for the wealthy like in the US. Everything is free of charge for all. Knowledge counts. Not money.I haven't disputed the fact that the US has more nobel prizes than Cuba. But that doesn't say anything. How many nobel prizes has Angola got? You got to compare countries in the same league Yes, knowledge counts. Us has more Nobel winners,more publications, more investment in academia, and more results. You have dsputed the Nobel prize previously by saying Quote[/b] ]Nobel prizes? Jesus. If you want to compare how good an education system is, see the results it gets. US has more results than Cuba. You tried to compare US system with Cuban system and now you try to walk away from that by saying "You got to compare countries in the same league". Nice try. Quote[/b] ]Most hijackings have been made to Cuba as I pointed out. And I pointed out that less than half of it were genuinely connected to people wanting to go Cuba. As soon as Cuba had extradition treaty with Us regarding Hijackers, it went down. The wiki article you linked also mentions that it was extortion attempt. Quote[/b] ]The slum percentage is still 2% Cuba, compared to 5.8% for the US. From teh same government that selectively gives out information. While in US they are free to do the tabulation. Quote[/b] ]As I said. Any system is limited to the conditions of reality. If you have no oil it doesn't matter what kind of system you have, you still won't have any. The US backed dictatorship Kuwait isn't better just because it's richer and people go there. In other words, all the nations without oil will not work with Cuban system either, since no system matters, right? Then how come Singapore, France, Germany, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and many more who does not have oil make their system work? Quote[/b] ]It's a better system because Cuba works better than Haiti or any other South American country that has equal starting conditions. Everybody moving away from Cuba? So just because some boats come once or twice per year everyone is moving? Then whole Mexico or whole Europe must be in the US. But naturally some people look for higher living standards, they think they can make a fortune. Haiti and South American countries don't have oil, so according to yor above statement, no system works for them. So Cuban system is not going to work. (notice that I'm using your logic. So if you disagree with my conclusion you are killing your own logic). As for moving away from Cuba, 1% of population is NOT an insignificant number. Us definitely has more people coming in. And yes they can make fortune in US, but not in Cuba where the nation owns everything. Quote[/b] ]Cuba is still a third world country (like the rest of South America) because of the sanctions. It took US two hundred years or so to become industrialized. Cuba hasn't had that amount of time since it got free. Again, sanctions don't work on rest of the world. Just Cuba and US. Other nations with smaller time frame made themselves better than Cuba. Quote[/b] ]US is a big country with around 25 times the inhabitants of Cuba. The amount of square miles per capita is also higher. A might produce 10 bottles of milk with 10 workers. B produces 2 bottles of milk with one worker. That makes B better. Keep looking for excuses. The largest nation is Russia, which has larger land than US, but still lags behind US in nominal GDP and GDP/capita. In your example, country A is Cuba, country B is US. Quote[/b] ]No US has a system that's worse. The material living standard is higher, that's the only thing. Middle East wasn't "ruling the world"/it didn't have use of oil in the 1400s because oil hadn't been discovered and there was no use for it then. Why would anyone want to use oil back then? What are you thinking? Now those countries are among the richest in the world. You just confirmed my argument. It's just not the raw material, but how you use it too. Many developed nations have efficiency/skills to develope raw materials to something useful. Saudi Arabia's GDP/capita is STILL less than US, as well as nominal GDP. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Believe it or not, Cuba loves money. They don't mind having US dollars and Euros on their side. Their tourism industry is a significant part of their economy.Again, let's go back to one of your links The text you bolded means the convertible peso (the one tourists use) is tied to the value of the dollar, nothing less nothing more. The standard peso normal citizens use can't be exchanged for dollars or euros. It isn't convertible. Your original argument was that USD and Euros are useless in Cuba. I showed you that USD is used in Cuba. Converted peso is converted from USD and Euro. The money system of Cuba doesn't have two different pesos. Quote[/b] ]Foreign investment doesn't mean there's capitalism on Cuba. The Cuban people owns at least 50% of all companies based in Cuba. Keep putting your head in sand. As stated above, they have capitalism. Tourism money is capitalism. any action to make money and have profit is capitalism. Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]Like the ones you posted above which is quite questionable to begin with? Just because Cuba may out perform in some areas don't mean that Cuba is better than US. Switzerland has far better production skills than US, but they are not definitely better than US. What kind of production skills? Why isn't Switzerland better than the US? That country at least has a parliament and regular referendums. That's more democratic than the US. Watches, knives, guns, financial institutions. US also has many elections like presidential, congressional(federal and state) and city elections with referendums. So US is democratic. Quote[/b] ]The Cuban system is democratic and socialist. That compared to the US capitalist system. Cuba is run in the interests of the people. The US is run in the interests of the capital. If you don't have money or support the influential corporations you have no chance in getting elected. You have to please the capitalists and the corporations. The president is just their puppet. So are you saying that corporates buy the vote from people, or they select who the president will be? Guess upcoming presidential election is useless. Here's a hint to you. You don't know what you are talking about. You are just spewing regurgitated garbage that you have no idea of. Quote[/b] ]In cuba there are no such capitalists, that's why Cuba has been able to surpass the US in many humanitarian areas. uh huh. I guess cuba has been sending money to fight AIDS in Africa more than US? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baff1 0 Posted February 25, 2008 But Cuba hasn't been a truly independent nation for long. Before indepence it was a US colony and before that a spanish one. Colonies are exploited by their masters. Most of the third world consists of ex- or neocolonies. Most of the First World too. Particularly all the really wealthy trade nexuses. Cuba is poor because it is a banana republic. It has no natural resources and hurricanes devastate the place every year. All the other Carribean Islands are also poor, even though many of them trade with the U.S.. Cuba was poor when it was a U.S. trade partner too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baff1 0 Posted February 25, 2008 Quote[/b] ]There are plenty of alternatives. There is about 10 000 seats distributed locally in total in Cuba and about 30 000 candidates. Capitalism is not compatible with democracy. No communist party is the only party allowed. No alternatives. Those seats yo umentioned are for communist party only, not by different political parties. Capitalism is compatible with democracy. Communism is NOT compatible with democracy because it has the giant centralied planning. You are confusing "Democracy" with a party political system. Communist officials are typically democratically elected to their positions. It is a one party system, not a bi-party system. In a bi party system, you vote for a party and the winning party decides which leader you will have in which governmental position. In communism you individually vote each leader to a specific job. Further to this the buying of votes is as old as democracy. Industries/the wealthy pay for electoral campaigns, political parties target tax cuts, job securities, wellfare and governmental services. The U.S. isn't a great paragon of democratic purity. (Although it is a much better place to live than Cuba and many many other places). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
