International Politics Thread

[Bordoy 0]

Would just like to revive this thread for discussion on G8 as that is International.

So, topics on this years sumit at GlenEagles are:

1: World Climate and Enviromental Change

2: World Poverty

Already some fighting taking place but that just going to be the usual viloent socialist thugs.

[miles teg 1]

Bush administartion view:

1: World Climate and Enviromental Change:   Its all a lie by tree-hugging liberal scientists who hate capitalism and are just commies who hate freedom and democracy and the God-given right to make a ton of money.

2: World Poverty-   Poor because of their 3rd world commie liberal politicians and their backwards cultures and religions that do not embrace American style capitalism (sometimes refered to by Bush as "Freedom and Democracy").

Some American conservatives I've talked to view famine and disease in Africa as just God's way of punishing sinners because they won't stop boning everything that moves and being unfaithful to their spouces while others I've talked to see it as a simple form of natural population control.  In a highly rationale way they are right.  The rationale thing is to stop giving them food donations and let them starve because smaller populations allow for less competition for resources.  Harsh enviornmental circumstances also allows for the strongest and smartest to survive.    It's good ol' social evolution.  

There was one Australian guy I used to debate with on usenet who said that the most compassionate thing in the long term was to let Africans and other poor countries starve because nobody sent food aid to America during the Great Depression and he said America came out of it stronger.  

Of coarse I don't think America ever had a big problem with starvation and the horrific famines in other countries like Ireland, didn't exactly make them much stronger for it.

...although it did bring a lot of Irish to America.

What people don't realize is that people will migrate to survive so that eventually one country's problems becomes another's problem or the problem of many countries if things are not solved in the country that the refugees came from.

That, population control programs (birth control), agricultural reform/development, and the distribution of condoms are extremely important, but the conservatives here in the US (as well as some in Europe and most of the Middle East and Muslim leaders in Africa) are steadfastly opposed to such things as birthcontrol or the distribution of condoms and sex education programs.   Cuz that promotes SIN in their view.  And preventing SIN and saving souls is more important then protecting the world's most vulnerable populations apparently at least to some conservatives.

What I would like to see more of however is a new type of capitalism that is emerging called social entrepeneurship in which individuals with capital start economic development

programs not with the goal of maximizing profit, but of maximizing the amount of social/economic improvements their companies create in the communities they are in.  PBS has a new series hosted by Robert Redford called "The New Heroes" about such individuals and businesses and to me it is a fantastic way to use capitalist principles to do a lot of good in the world.   But rather instead, greed tends to overrule such practices and most companies are only interested in increasing their profit margins in order to increase their stock value and attract more stock holders.  For that reason I believe more in small private businesses and do not believe in a corporate type capitalism that has little government regulation and driven PURELY by profit margins under the excuse of "well we have to be more competitive so thats why we had to remove all these regulations". Its simply a nice way of saying, "We're going to remove our employee benefits and lower wages and make employees work longer hours so that we can make a hell of alot more money for our board and stock holders and that's all that matters."

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Bush administartion view:

1: World Climate and Enviromental Change:   Its all a lie by tree-hugging liberal scientists who hate capitalism and are just commies who hate freedom and democracy and the God-given right to make a ton of money.

2: World Poverty-   Poor because of their 3rd world commie liberal politicians and their backwards cultures and religions that do not embrace American style capitalism (sometimes refered to by Bush as "Freedom and Democracy").

Some American conservatives I've talked to view famine and disease in Africa as just God's way of punishing sinners because they won't stop boning everything that moves and being unfaithful to their spouces while others I've talked to see it as a simple form of natural population control.  In a highly rationale way they are right.  The rationale thing is to stop giving them food donations and let them starve because smaller populations allow for less competition for resources.  Harsh enviornmental circumstances also allows for the strongest and smartest to survive.    It's good ol' social evolution.  

There was one Australian guy I used to debate with on usenet who said that the most compassionate thing in the long term was to let Africans and other poor countries starve because nobody sent food aid to America during the Great Depression and he said America came out of it stronger.  

Of coarse I don't think America ever had a big problem with starvation and the horrific famines in other countries like Ireland, didn't exactly make them much stronger for it.

...although it did bring a lot of Irish to America.

What people don't realize is that people will migrate to survive so that eventually one country's problems becomes another's problem or the problem of many countries if things are not solved in the country that the refugees came from.

That, population control programs (birth control), agricultural reform/development, and the distribution of condoms are extremely important, but the conservatives here in the US (as well as some in Europe and most of the Middle East and Muslim leaders in Africa) are steadfastly opposed to such things as birthcontrol or the distribution of condoms and sex education programs.   Cuz that promotes SIN in their view.  And preventing SIN and saving souls is more important then protecting the world's most vulnerable populations apparently at least to some conservatives.

What I would like to see more of however is a new type of capitalism that is emerging called social entrepeneurship in which individuals with capital start economic development

programs not with the goal of maximizing profit, but of maximizing the amount of social/economic improvements their companies create in the communities they are in.  PBS has a new series hosted by Robert Redford called "The New Heroes" about such individuals and businesses and to me it is a fantastic way to use capitalist principles to do a lot of good in the world.   But rather instead, greed tends to overrule such practices and most companies are only interested in increasing their profit margins in order to increase their stock value and attract more stock holders.  For that reason I believe more in small private businesses and do not believe in a corporate type capitalism that has little government regulation and driven PURELY by profit margins under the excuse of "well we have to be more competitive so thats why we had to remove all these regulations".   Its simply a nice way of saying, "We're going to remove our employee benefits and lower wages and make employees work longer hours so that we can make a hell of alot more money for our board and stock holders and that's all that matters."

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Rebuttal time

1: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....3231150

Quote[/b] ]Bush told Britain's ITV television ahead of the July 6-8 gathering that global warming was "a significant, long-term issue that we've got to deal with".

Quote[/b] ]"If this (draft plans under negotiation) looks like Kyoto, the answer is no," Bush said. "The Kyoto treaty would have wrecked our economy, if I can be blunt."

2: http://usinfo.state.gov/eur....lid=eur

Quote[/b] ]

The United States, the largest donor of official development aid to Africa, has nearly tripled that aid in the last three years to reach $3.2 billion in 2004. U.S. private charities, such as those involved in organizing LIVE 8, are also a major source of aid to Africa.

Most conservatives posts I have read/talked to basically bitch that the money goes to the corrupt people (aka nowhere), Europe did a screw job on Africa (telling Africa basically to feck off and left aka let the morons take over), the tribal belief systems, and etc. Basically, they wish there was a restart button because it going to take forever for Africa to fix itself in it's current situation. Some parts of Africa is "developed" but majority of Africa isn't.

[miles teg 1]

Bush's statements are all talk, no action. He basically just says, "We need more research" when even people in his own EPA are telling him, "no we don't" but get their memos and reports either repressed, or white-washed. In some cases they just get fired for not towing the Bush line.

Personally I think the Kyoto agreement was poorly laid out and in truth none of the G8 countries that have signed it have met its goals. But at least they are making some attempts where as the Bush administration is extremely reluctant to impose any kind of federal guidelines cuz thats commmie regulation of industry and goes against pure capitalism in which everything works out in this grandiose natural system of economics.

But the fact of the matter is that the Bush administration is stalling and ignoring the data from the scientific community.

As for African aid notice I didn't mention the Bush administration. I was talking about the attitudes of many conservatives in this country and other countries as well.

Does the Bush administration support birth control and sex education in Africa now??

Hell, they don't even support those things in this country let alone in Africa where its needed most because "sex education and birthcontrol makes people have more sex" according to most Republicans.

So in some ways, some conservatives are right in that throwing money at the problem doesn't always help because as you said, much of the money does not go to charities, but rather the bulk goes to economic assistance to the governments of those countries....and in to the pockets of corrupt government officials and military leaders of those countries.

Also by the way, the last Live 8 concert from what I understand wasn't a fund raiser, but rather was just to encourage politicians of the G8 to cancel debt for more African nations.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Akira 0]

Saw an interesting news story on PBS yesterday about how the Chinese are slowly buying businesses in Africa, and giving aide. It mentioned Sudan and Sierre Leone where they are investing heavily in their economy and oil infrastructure. This is giving Africa the ability to resist Western influence by nuzzling up to the Chinese, who care less about human rights records and other issues that have kept western sanctions on the Sudan (for example).

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also by the way, the last Live 8 concert from what I understand wasn't a fund raiser, but rather was just to encourage politicians of the G8 to cancel debt for more African nations.

I think the State department article was saying that U.S. private charities helped organized Live 8.

Quote[/b] ]As for African aid notice I didn't mention the Bush administration. I was talking about the attitudes of many conservatives in this country and other countries as well.

I was replying about #2.

Quote[/b] ]But the fact of the matter is that the Bush administration is stalling and ignoring the data from the scientific community.

Nah, he isn't ignoring it because there is a $20 billion investment in "clean air" technologies by the feds. Also if you notice...

Quote[/b] ]"enable the United States and other countries to diversify away from fossil fuels so that the air will be cleaner and that we have the economic and national security that comes from less dependence on foreign sources of oil," he said.

[Sophion-Black 0]

hmm... looks like ANWAR is getting drilled. If the US actually gets to export more oil that import then our econimy would be jumping higher than Space-Ship-One. but it looks like it would only give us something to keep us above water. Just think, if the US goes on with drilling inside the US and lowers comercial taxes, it would be a huge jump, giving the US a bigger pocket. .

Arika, i'd say every1 would benifit in this. sorry about the ANWAR part tough, but it something has to happen

[Bordoy 0]

Fucking socialist, communist and anarchist bastards going at it today trying to get through the police line. The police did a good old fashioned charge at full pace, lol, and some cavalry round up aswell, lol.

How did I know commies, socialist and anrchist were there?

Easy, tell by the soviet union flags, the socialist worker banners, and the black flags of the anarchists.

Only a minority caused the trouble but some more joined in. Luckily not all of them did or it would of been worse. I watched it live so I saw that start of it. The barriers which have been breached have now been replaced.

Hopefully its not worse tomorrow.

Would just like to apoligise on behalf of the twats, though i dont know them, to the americans as they were burning American flags.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Would just like to apoligise on behalf of the twats, though i dont know them, to the americans as they were burning American flags.

Why say sorry? They are over here also and do the same shit. However, they usually have to watch out where they (flag burners) do it...

http://www.pe.com/localne....e9.html

Quote[/b] ]

After a 19-year-old war protester set fire to an American flag at the Murrieta city birthday bash Saturday evening, angry bystanders attacked him before he could say a word, his mother said Sunday.

Another example, flashback, Vietnam era

This time construction workers started the violence (bad! ) but

http://chnm.gmu.edu/hardhats/nytwall.html

Quote[/b] ]

The New York Times

Starting at 7:30 A.M., hundreds of youths, mostly from New York University and others from Hunter College and city high schools, gathered at Broad and Wall Streets in a demonstration demanding the immediate withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam and Cambodia, the immediate release of all "political prisoners in America" and the cessation of military-oriented work by the universities.

"All accounts agree that the demonstration was without violence until the construction workers reached the scene.

"The construction workers, most of them wearing brown overalls and orange and yellow hard hats, descended on Wall Street from four directions. A thin line of policemen had blocked off the steps of the Federal Hall National Memorial at Nassau and Wall Streets, from about a thousand students who were sitting on the sidewalk and pavement listening to speakers denounce the war abroad and repression at home.

"The morning was chilly, with a light rain. But toward noon the sky lightened and the day became warm and humid. The students were in good humor; they cheered a Broad Street lawyer, Charles F. Appel, 56 years old, who told the youths: 'You brought down one President and you'll bring down another.'

"Then came the moment of confrontation. The construction workers, marching behind a cluster of American flags, swept the policemen aside and moved on the students. The youths scattered, seeking refuge in the lunch hour crowds.

"The workers sought them out, some selecting those youths with the most hair and swatting them with their helmets.

"There did not seem to be more than 200 construction workers, but they were reinforced by hundreds of persons who had been drawn into the march by chants of 'All the way, U.S.A.' and 'Love it or leave it.'

"On reaching the Federal Hall National Memorial, the workers at first pushed halfheartedly against the police line. 'All we want to do is put our flag up on those steps,' one worker said quietly to Inspector Harold Schryner. 'If you try, there'll be blood to pay,' the inspector replied.

"But within two minutes the workers had surged over the memorial's steps, planting American flags on the statue of George Washington. Then they outflanked the police, driving demonstrators before them and hitting the youths with their helmets.

Damn, the times have changed... I don't like mob violence but...

[EiZei 0]

Wonder where billybob's outrage towards these kinds of acts went considering his reaction to some vandalized pro-bush signs during the 2004 election..

[Akira 0]

Nothing funnier than people being beaten and accosted because they hold a contrary view to some construction workers who probably have Confederate flags and gun racks in their trucks. Yeah hilarious. Makes me proud to be an American...

EDIT: You have a link that doesn't require registration?

[billybob2002 0]

Wonder where billybob's outrage towards these kinds of acts went considering his reaction to some vandalized pro-bush signs during the 2004 election..

Quote[/b] ]I don't like mob violence but...  

I disagree with mob violence but meh. You would not today see 200 construction workers and others go against the radicals in anti-war protests without charges being filed. That incident happened almost thirty years ago. Now, what happened a few days ago, was bad. It was wrong what they did, if true, but can I crack a smile.

Quote[/b] ] You have a link that doesn't require registration?

Quote[/b] ]11:14 PM PDT on Sunday, July 3, 2005

By SARAH BURGE / The Riverside Press-Enterprise

MURRIETA - After a 19-year-old war protester set fire to an American flag at the Murrieta city birthday bash Saturday evening, angry bystanders attacked him before he could say a word, his mother said Sunday.

Police said Lee Henry Vollick, of Murrieta, set an American flag ablaze around 7:55 p.m. in the middle of a crowded concert at the California Oaks Sports Park.

The protester's mother, Barbara Vollick, said her son was trying to make a statement against the war in Iraq, not against the United States.

"He's just a college student being crazy," she said.

Murrieta police Sgt. Dennis Vrooman said, "He was basically a one-man demonstration."

He was trying to get others to join him, Vrooman said, "but he wasn't getting any cooperation."

Vollick said her son was upset about President Bush's speech on Iraq last week.

"He's very angry that our young men are dying," Vollick said.

"He didn't even get to say anything," she said, alleging that about a half-dozen people attacked him and pulled the flag away. One man punched him in the face, she said.

Vollick said Sunday her son wasn't in any condition to speak with the press.

"He's actually in a lot of pain right now." She said his face was cut, his neck and back were hurt, and he had welts on his wrists from handcuffs police placed on him when he was arrested.

Vollick was up all night in jail, she said, and he wasn't released until nearly 10 a.m. Sunday morning.

According to a police news release, a Murrieta police officer approached Vollick because the fire posed a hazard to the crowd. The fire burned out quickly, but the officer tried to grab Vollick anyway.

Vollick resisted and tried to break away from his grasp, the release said. With the help of several bystanders, including two off-duty Murrieta police officers, the officer brought Vollick to the ground.

Vollick was arrested on suspicion of resisting a police officer, disturbing a public assembly and inciting a riot. Vollick's mother said he was just trying to stand up, not fight the officers.

"He was yelling, 'You're hurting me,' " she said. "He has a bad back."

Vrooman said, "From my understanding, there were quite a few people in the crowd who were displeased at what he was doing." When the police took the teen him away, Vrooman said, "people applauded."

Vollick said her son was a student at Mt. San Jacinto College for a semester and a half, but had to take time off for health reasons.

She said he had planned to go back to school in August or join the Navy.

"He loves the military," Vollick said, adding that he was a Young Marine for two years when they lived in San Diego. "He wants to serve his country, but he doesn't want to kill people."

Quote[/b] ]Nothing funnier than people being beaten and accosted because they hold a contrary view to some construction workers who probably have Confederate flags and gun racks in their trucks. Yeah hilarious. Makes me proud to be an American...

New York construction workers with Confederate flags....  I thought they do not mix well.

[kavoven 4]

Well, just red about a very serious accidant ^^

President Bush crashed with his bicycle at the G8 Conferences into a policeman and the man was so dreadfully injured, that he had to go into hospital

Fortunately *ahem* Bush wasn't injured too badly

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]Also by the way, the last Live 8 concert from what I understand wasn't a fund raiser, but rather was just to encourage politicians of the G8 to cancel debt for more African nations.

I think the State department article was saying that U.S. private charities helped organized Live 8.

Quote[/b] ]As for African aid notice I didn't mention the Bush administration.   I was talking about the attitudes of many conservatives in this country and other countries as well.  

I was replying about #2.

Quote[/b] ]But the fact of the matter is that the Bush administration is stalling and ignoring the data from the scientific community.

Nah, he isn't ignoring it because there is a $20 billion investment in "clean air" technologies by the feds. Also if you notice...

Quote[/b] ]"enable the United States and other countries to diversify away from fossil fuels so that the air will be cleaner and that we have the economic and national security that comes from less dependence on foreign sources of oil," he said.

We're spending 20 billion dollars over how long of a period?

When you see evidence that America is starting to seriously look towards alternative fuels then please let me now, because here in SUV capital USA (Texas) I sure as hell don't see the slightest interest in moving away towards other types of fuel nor have I heard of much interest or much legislation to spur this move anywhere in the country (except perhaps Vermont and California).

Currently pretty much everything is relying on consumers which is not always the smartest thing given that often consumers want stuff that isn't necessarily good for them or the nation. *cough*tobacco*cough*

Only in the case of the enviornment the stakes are much higher as our pulluting effects the entire world not just our country. The US and China simply don't want to take the problem seriously. Spending money on alternative energy resources is fine. But in addition actually encouraging doing stuff to conserve energy and to utilize alternative sources of energy would be a heck of alot better.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

Nothing funnier than people being beaten and accosted because they hold a contrary view to some construction workers who probably have Confederate flags and gun racks in their trucks. Yeah hilarious. Makes me proud to be an American...

EDIT: You have a link that doesn't require registration?

Like Sophion-Black's freedom banner? I'm sure BillyBob loves that flag!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Sophion-Black 0]

Like Sophion-Black's freedom banner?   I'm sure BillyBob loves that flag!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

*cough*

This is differant than This

don't you think so?

although it is a party of the CSA, it is still the basis of what the US is built on today.

[denoir 0]

I saw a documentary the other day, Comandante by Oliver Stone. It's basically a long interview with Castro.

I can really recommend it. I'm having a difficult time interpreting what I saw though. More or less everything Castro says there makes sense and he's quite convincing. I still can't help but wondering if he is full of shit or actually honest. Anybody else seen it?

[Colossus 2]

I've seen half of it but I got to say he is some times convincing, though I think it's mostly bullshit.

When we are on the subject:

For you new members, my avatar has nothing to do with my political view.

[Bordoy 0]

I've seen half of it but I got to say he is some times convincing, though I think it's mostly bullshit.

When we are on the subject:

For you new members, my avatar has nothing to do with my political view.

So why do you have it?

But i guess its like people who wear clothes with him on, they don't understand anything to with him.

[red oct 2]

I've seen half of it but I got to say he is some times convincing, though I think it's mostly bullshit.

When we are on the subject:

For you new members, my avatar has nothing to do with my political view.

So why do you have it?

But i guess its like people who wear clothes with him on, they don't understand anything to with him.

what better way to insult him, than to capitalize his name and image.

[Bordoy 0]

I've seen half of it but I got to say he is some times convincing, though I think it's mostly bullshit.

When we are on the subject:

For you new members, my avatar has nothing to do with my political view.

So why do you have it?

But i guess its like people who wear clothes with him on, they don't understand anything to with him.

what better way to insult him, than to capitalize his name and image.  

good point

[chops 111]

I've seen "Commandante" and was pretty impressed with the movie and have to say with Castro himself (Nike shoes and all). Whatever your political persuasions, Castro is a fascinating, living, historical figure.

It seems like Cuba has achieved some great things inspite of the US embargo. I think I read somewhere that they have a higher literacy rate than the US.

!Viva la revolucion!

[theavonlady 2]

I've seen "Commandante" and was pretty impressed with the movie and have to say with Castro himself (Nike shoes and all). Whatever your political persuasions, Castro is a fascinating, living, historical figure.

It seems like Cuba has achieved some great things inspite of the US embargo. I think I read somewhere that they have a higher literacy rate than the US.

!Viva la revolucion!

Castro, the left's living father figure.

Monster.

[EiZei 0]

I've seen "Commandante" and was pretty impressed with the movie and have to say with Castro himself (Nike shoes and all). Whatever your political persuasions, Castro is a fascinating, living, historical figure.

It seems like Cuba has achieved some great things inspite of the US embargo. I think I read somewhere that they have a higher literacy rate than the US.

!Viva la revolucion!

Castro, the left's living father figure.

Monster.

Yes, luckily there were all those freedom-loving humanitarian anti-communist regimes propped up in latin america by the USA to prevent such monstrosities in the future.

[Supah 0]

I've seen "Commandante" and was pretty impressed with the movie and have to say with Castro himself (Nike shoes and all). Whatever your political persuasions, Castro is a fascinating, living, historical figure.

It seems like Cuba has achieved some great things inspite of the US embargo. I think I read somewhere that they have a higher literacy rate than the US.

!Viva la revolucion!

Castro, the left's living father figure.

Monster.

Fidela and Pinochet, the rights role models. That's a game we can both play Avonlady, but I'd rather not be that childish. Unlike the USA europe doesnt suffer from that idiotic anti-left hysteria. The Ghosts of McCarthy still flying around.