Weapon accuracy

[matyboy 0]

Please BIS, do get your weapons accuracy better in ofp2

as many people have found playing ofp being hit by a AK47

at about 100yards (91.44 meters) away in the head on the second or third shot is abit silly,the AK47 is not by design, very accurate,and

is very much suited for close up work,with its large cal. makes it a ideal killing machine for close combat.

I watched a documentry on the AK47 and the US M16 some time ago on tv and had the two gun designers from the USSR and the US firing side by side,shoting it out on a firing range both prone, and targets were at 60yards (54.864 meters), the AK47 failed to hit the 2foot round target with any of the 10 shots,and m16 hit the target 10 times,with 3 within 8inch round bull,thats "fact".

Slowing down the film from a side shot of the AK47

as it fired, you could see why,the hole gun from stock

to muzzle oscillated like a snake and thats one of the reasons

the AK47 has a bad accuracy record.

So even in the hands of very well trained soldiers,more often or not it is pure luck you are hit at any great distance,usually

the result of overwhelming fire power in your "direction" and would not be anything to do with accuracy,but luck.

The M16 has a smaller cal. than the ak47 and is lighter

but is much more accurate,by design, so please BIS please do more research on your weaopns for ofp2.

martin.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

2 people do not a factual result make.

More weapon realism would be good, but that documentary does not sound very factual.

[Impavido 0]

I hate to be that jaded gamer sticking out amoung the arm-chair generals...but...

Who cares?

Yea, I want the vehicles and such to resemble their real life counterparts and perform in basic concept similarly.

But griping about how many inches of accuracy on two rifles in a HUGE game like OFP...

Yup, I just dont care....

[Yuzzi 0]

But griping about how many inches of accuracy on two rifles in a HUGE game like OFP...

Yea but I believe the post was mainly about the far too accurate assault rifles in ofp, not just differences between ak and m16.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I believe the post was fallaciously argueing that at 100m engagments are about luck, which is, to be frank, nonsense.

The weapon accuracies in OFP are FINE as they are. Sway could be increased to levels of FDF or WGL mod; that would make it a lot more realistic, as long as it affects AI as well.

IRL people miss because of sway; because they pull the trigger when they aren't really pointing at the right place. Do NOT penalise those who can aim and benefit those who can't.

More luck = worse game.

[Yuzzi 0]

Well whatever as long as headshots from 150meters become more rare

[Gordy 0]

I am not an army man, but I started to attand a shooting range, where among others I use AK's.

I don't find it very difficult to shoot a target in the head at 100m and more (up to 300m).

Weapon is designed to shoot where it aims. It pisses me off when I aim at a target in OFP and I see a shot going elswehre.

Besides Ak's has always been considered a great weapon for its reliability, accuracy. That is why it still the most commonly used rifle in the world.

[Heatseeker 0]

Its more of ak74 (not 47) versus M16A2, arent them both 5.56 chambered , but there is a good point to this thread 7.62 should have better penetration and more recoil and the M16 and M4 should be unreliable and weak has proven in afghanistan .

Really AK47 should be more deadly firing at targets behind soft cover...

[Gordy 0]

Its more of ak74 (not 47) versus M16A2, arent them both 5.56 chambered , but there is a good point to this thread 7.62 should have better penetration and more recoil and the M16 and M4 should be unreliable and weak has proven in afghanistan .

Really AK47 should be more deadly firing at targets behind soft cover...

If you keep your M4 clean they'll work perfectly. Sure they're not like AK's which you can throw in the mud and they will still work.

I agree about penetration though. They're tough mother@#$?/s

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Its more of ak74 (not 47) versus M16A2, arent them both 5.56 chambered , but there is a good point to this thread 7.62 should have better penetration and more recoil and the M16 and M4 should be unreliable and weak has proven in afghanistan .

Really AK47 should be more deadly firing at targets behind soft cover...

They are similar but not the same calibre.

7.62 russian and 7.62 nato are different as well.

[havocsquad 0]

Nooo, the AK74 chambers the 5.45x39mm round, not the 5.56 NATO round.   The only similiarity between the 5.45 and the 5.56 is their roughly similiar bore diameter size.

The 5.45 is slightly better in accuracy than the 7.62x39mm but is no where near as close accuracy as the M16 because the AK is hindered by the heavy and inaccurate action that slams ammunition in and out of the barrel.

Accuracy and dispersion of weapons is a vital part of modelling for OFP 2, not basing such weapons upon real factual dispersion and accuracy data would ruin the atmosphere of the game.

All decent quality-made firearms have some advantages over others.  It is important that each gun for OFP 2 is modelled correctly to reflect those traits.

The M16A2,3,4: can jam if not maintained well.   Long effective engagement range.  Very accurate, single fire and burst fire only.

The current version of the m4a1 with H&K's improvement of the gas operating system implimented:  Very reliable and accurate.

The AK47:  Much higher dispersion, single and full auto modes only.  Highly durable and reliable.  Effective range much smaller than other weapons due to heavier ball than the 5.56 or 5.45mm.

The AK74:  More accurate and longer range but still higher dispersion.  Very reliable but less ballistic destructive force than the 7.62x39mm.  Single fire and full auto only.

[Impavido 0]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Still dont care

[Heatseeker 0]

Well i do, the original game weapons were not very... interesting .

They lacked personnality big time.

They were not acuratelly modeled, they all had the same reload sound and animation, ak's came with 3 round burst, MG's were very weak and made too acurate, the sounds were poor, not to mention duplicate weapons like the ak47 and 74, aks74u and cz were all the exact same thing , or the fn fal and g3...

For OPF2 to become the perfect sim we need realistic weapons, ballistics and penetration, fire rates, sounds, ammo capacity, i want to replace a clip keeping one round in chamber, etc.

[stgn 39]

The current version of the m4a1 with H&K's improvement of the gas operating system implimented:  Very reliable and accurate.

Whats the maening of the posible buy of XM8 if u already do that????

Have you or enybody els tryed the HK M4?? how is it compared to a colt M4 eny differences other than that and the front sight???

STGN

[lowang 2]

Well i do, the original game weapons were not very... interesting .

They lacked personnality big time.

They were not acuratelly modeled, they all had the same reload sound and animation, ak's came with 3 round burst, MG's were very weak and made too acurate, the sounds were poor, not to mention duplicate weapons like the ak47 and 74, aks74u  and cz were all the exact same thing , or the fn fal and g3...

For OPF2 to become the perfect sim we need realistic weapons, ballistics and penetration, fire rates, sounds, ammo capacity, i want to replace a clip keeping one round in chamber, etc.

You are not right! The AK47 and AK47cz do quite more damage then AK74 and you will notice killing soldiers by fewer hits if you try!

[Silver Falcon 0]

http://club.guns.ru/eng/barnaul.html

You can read that its quite possible to make headshots at about 300m with machingun shot with optics (not whole burst of course ).

I think that its not much realistic to decrease accuracy just like JAMHD or CSLA did - the riffles are quite accurate. The most critical part is marksman. So I would increase "aimprecision" value to make your hands shake a little bit more so you must aim well to hit on long distances. I did some tests and it realy improves gameplay and realism if not in extreme (note that recoil must be decreased, because high aimprecision multiplies recoil).

[CAPAIRMAN 0]

The accuracy depends on the shooter. If you know your weapon you can compansate for windage and recoil, and most of the guns other imperfections. You can hit things on the first shot at 100m at with a pellet gun if you know what the weapon will do when fired.

Carlos Hatchcock, a sniper with 93 confirmed kills, made the worlds longest sniper kill at around 2.5 kilometers (broken by Canadians in Enduring Freedom) with a .50 caliber browning machine gun. If someone can do that then it is possible to get a head shot with an AK at 100m.

[gandalf the white 0]

What i would like to see is that when you pick up another rifle it shoots a bit to the left / right / top / wherever, since the optics arent finetuned for you. This would increase the willingness to keep with your standard weapon, Also because many times in urban combat i hear AK's ringing behind a house, i toss a nade over it, wait for the boom, and...

Hunta was killed by Gladiator (Friendly fire)

Seb Gamester was killed by Gladiator (Friendly fire)

Gladiator: ... shit

AK: Fucking teamkiller, you die now!

Gladiator got brutally slaughtered by the remains of his squad (intended friendly fire)

[Billabong81 0]

What i would like to see is that when you pick up another rifle it shoots a bit to the left / right / top / wherever, since the optics arent finetuned for you. This would increase the willingness to keep with your standard weapon, Also because many times in urban combat i hear AK's ringing behind a house, i toss a nade over it, wait for the boom, and...

I think that would be going a bit too into rela life at would take some of the fun away from the game. I love being able to kill someone and take his weapon .

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]The weapon accuracies in OFP are FINE as they are.  Sway could be increased to levels of FDF or WGL mod; that would make it a lot more realistic, as long as it affects AI as well.

What needs to be done is not something exaggerated like weapon sway, but a better simulation of human error when handling and firing a gun. WIND -needs- to be simulated no matter how. I too am sick of seeing the guns in ofp sniper rifle accurate.

Anyone who's had any experience firing guns outdoors knows it's not nearly as easy as it sounds. Hell for me shooting a target the size of a cantaloupe at 20 meters with a 12 gauge slug in real life is an accomplishment in itself.

I DON'T think that exaggerated performance is COOL in OFP. I'm sick of being able to hit people at ridiculous distances and likewise being hit by people at ridiculous distances while playing OFP. It's not the kind of game I want to play.

I would like to see a lot more emphasis on realistic recoil as well. As it stands in OFP the recoil is not as good as it could be. Unless you're like ultra sniper master, you're not going to have a gun recoil stright up and be able to move it back down immediately. Humans aren't perfect, and when firing repeatedly it's often common, especially with higher caliber guns to overcompensate and aim a bit too low when bringing the barrel down after cranking off many rounds quickly. These are all things that I really want to see in OFP 2. I'm just sick of having precision robot like accuracy.

All those feats of amazing accuracy or those figures you see on ballistics charts are under ideal circumstances, 99 times out of 100 soldiers are not going to possess the requisite skills or experience the proper circumstances to pull off shots like that. Sure for some it may make them feel like rambo or something, but to me it's just becoming very redundant and boring.

I have seen combat footage from Iraq and in one case a VW type bus was spotted by a detachment of marines and they shot at it. It caught fire and stopped easily less than 50m away from them. They saw one guy make a run for it. They shot at him as he ran across the road and could not hit him. He kept running until he stopped in front of a shack only then struck by a bullet and then staggered inside. After that it looked like he was finished off with .50 caliber incendiary rounds, or that's what I assume as the crackle of a much louder gun with small explosions (smaller than 40mm) around the shack were seen.

They also weren't taking carefully aimed shots either, this was MANY MARINES firing many rounds out of their rifles before the guy finally was hit. To me that perfectly captures the fast paced chaotic nature of combat and how it has a directly negative impact on one's ability to shoot accurately.

As a final note, it seems to me that LAWs and RPGs and mortars are entirely too accurate. I'd -love- for that to be remedied. I'm sick of them being sniper rifle accurate, flying in a straight line without any kind of deviation whatsoever.

[CAPAIRMAN 0]

What i would like to see is that when you pick up another rifle it shoots a bit to the left / right / top / wherever, since the optics arent finetuned for you. This would increase the willingness to keep with your standard weapon, Also because many times in urban combat i hear AK's ringing behind a house, i toss a nade over it, wait for the boom, and...

Hunta was killed by Gladiator (Friendly fire)

Seb Gamester was killed by Gladiator (Friendly fire)

Gladiator: ... shit

AK: Fucking teamkiller, you die now!

Gladiator got brutally slaughtered by the remains of his squad (intended friendly fire)

I agree. It would be alot more realistic that way.

[Silver Falcon 0]

The mistuning sights/optics are IMHO very contraproductive - it true that snipers rather use their own weapons, but in common shooting you can use anyone´s riffle tuned to him and shoot quite well (in my experience)

The real problem is to take good, stabile position and have time to shoot. This would by easily simulated by improved aimprecision (breathing element as in AAO may be involved too). Swaying weapon make you to aim well and it take a bit time and concentraition to hit target - so you can hit target at about 400 meters from sniper riffle by one round when you have time as well as fire half of magazine on running man at 100m hitting just dirt when firing in haste (tested on higher aimprecision).

It would be quite well for me.

If you suggest some improvements first think what good it brings and HOW DIFFICULT is it to simulate!

I dont need wind, muzzle curving due to the temperature after long burst, and such "details".

All I want is proper aimprecision in different stances and BIPOD/supported, proper recoil (quite good in AAO) and maybe breathing (like in AAO) rest can be simplified to "random dispersion" (the dipersion that is actualy used in OFP).

That would bring enough realism, gameplay an it shouldn´t be so difficult to make.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]rest can be simplified to "random dispersion" (the dipersion that is actualy used in OFP).

I disagree, if you've ever fired a gun you know that there's a difference between the potential accuracy of a firearm and the actual precision of a firearm when used by someone who is or isn't experienced.

What you're proposing is currently what we're stuck with right now, and it's resulting in weapons not performing as realistically. Why don't we just use something stupid and completely unrealistic like an expanding ring system by that logic?

[Friedchiken 0]

While discussions of weapon facts are good, I think the best way we could get to the answer is if we figure out the mental processes involved in shooting.

The expanding cross-hair system in Rainbow shield just doesn't really seem to capture the skill required to focus quickly and squeeze off the right shots.

FDF mod has interesting configs but for some reason handling the gun is a bit... "sluggish" for me. I like how it takes concentration or good support to fire a weapon but I just can't fully immerse myself in looking down a fixed iron-sight

America's Army seems to have fun handling but it always seems to easy to shoot w/o regard to the current physiological status of the avatar.

However, I did sorta like the 3d iron-sites because when you sprayed, the screen didn't disorient itself too much but the gun is still jumping like hell and the sights become misaligned until you stop firing. But AA still made shooting somehow still too easy.

The question of accuracy is a tough question that many developers often overlook in subtle ways (what am I saying??!). I think that what some of the "jaded gamers" should realize that wargames also cater to a group that enjoys the mental gameplay involving the strategies and tactics of combat. The reason why we want realism to no compromise is that in a way, we want to know how combat works, rather to "experience" combat. Some of use want an environment where we think, plan, and "react" (without fear, unfortunately) like the men and men engaged in the survival industry called war. In my case, I personally play wargames because I want to experience select elements of the lifestyle of my "heros" live each day.

The a group of people, including me want to literally see an truthful misbalance of gameplay where not all weapons are similar. In Vietnam, I want to see the Americans rely alot on support items like airstrikes (that often miss) or mines to destroy tanks instead of relying on 3-4 law shots that should really be on the backs on my team. A WWII Tiger tank should be powerful so I can really experience the sense of unfairness of the situation as I am forced to retreat from a situation to form a potentail ambush.

I hope I gave out some useful ideas, and didn't stereotype too many people. Translating the war experience onto the PC is an odd psychological affair.

That and my thoughts are often muddy.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]However, I did sorta like the 3d iron-sites because when you sprayed, the screen didn't disorient itself too much but the gun is still jumping like hell

I can't speak for other people who've actually fired guns, but when I fire anything that has any significant recoil (12 gauge, .308, etc). I pretty much fire and then have to reposition my aim and then look down the sight again. I am half the time afraid to closely look down the sights of a 12 gauge because I'm worried it will come up and hit me in the face. Especially firing slugs.

I personally don't give a rat's ass if the iron sights are 3d or not. If you can't actually move the sights independent of your FOV (like in trespasser) then it doesn't really matter. It's windowdressing. When you're looking down the sights of a gun you're focusing on something at a distance so it's not like you can revel in the detail of your iron sights in crystal clarity anyhow.

Cranking off .223 rounds is not a walk in the park either. You can't just look down the sights of it and expect to fire away like you would in OFP and expect your POV to not get a bit disoriented. I don't want just the appearance of realistic weapon function, I want the adverse effects as well.

I kind of WANT that disorientation because at really far distances or even at intermediate distances because then people won't be firing like mad and scoring hits at fairly ridiculous ranges. It forces you to make every shot count.