Albanian terror on kosovo

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

But as you see ,territorial claims founded on territorial shift's is a bad idea ,as history is full of it and there are many cases where multiple nations can put historical claims on the same region.(Even France and the Neetherlands could theoreticly have claims on the whole of Belgium)

You are looking at this through the wrong angle mate

I am not talking about "legal" claims, I am talking about the national conscience of the people. According to you, Greece could make a claim for all land between Gibraltar and the Hindus River, yet if you ask a Greek whether he considers Gibraltar, Marseille, Sicily, Odessa or Baghdad as part of Greece, he will say "no", even though we have a historic reason to be able to lay such a claim (were we to accept this "legal" claim, that is). However, start talking about Smyrna or Constantinople, and the matter changes.

In the Greek national conscience, Constantinople and Smyrna are still meant to be Greek, partially because Greeks that lived there are still alive and can tell stories about living there and being chased out of there. Similarly, Odessa and Marseille and most of the western Mediterranean are not part of the Greek national conscience (even though we once owned all of these parts).

Its the same thing with Kosovo. Irregardless of whether their historic claim is valid or not (which, looking at the historic perspective, is very valid IMO), their national conscience considers it as a part of Serbia! And this is where the difficulty comes in. If the common people consider it part of their national conscience, then starting to muck about with the borders of such areas can be very very dangerous.

That's all I'm saying

[Iva 0]

So like you say Apollo, Roman Empire can claim 1/3 of the world!!

The fact it that all we knew, we are, we were and we did had something to do whit Kosovo! Does Monestery in Kosovo deserve to be destroyed just because of that?

We dont have anything against albanians, romes, black dudes!

Serbians are NOT rasists! We started hating Albanians when they begun to slaughter Serbian children and Women!

[hellfish6 7]

You can have the land back when you can accept the people currently living there.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]So like you say Apollo, Roman Empire can claim 1/3 of the world!!

ABSOLUTLY NOT!

I want to make this clear ,i brought that up to show how retarted claims on pure historic bases are ,you and Helfish must have misinterpreted my words.

to repeat my words:

Quote[/b] ]But as you see ,territorial claims founded on territorial shift's is a bad idea ,as history is full of it and there are many cases where multiple nations can put historical claims on the same region.(Even France and the Neetherlands could theoreticly have claims on the whole of Belgium)

I stressed that IMO territorial claims should be mostly handled depending on ethnic presence in a region and whether or not large minority's of a certain ethnicity lack basic civil rights.

And to Iva ,to return to the Kosovo war ,what made NAto to react as such on youre country with the conflict in Kosovo? It was the clear ethnic cleansing on the ground and displacement of large numbers of ethnic Albanians to chase them over the borders ,this done by Serbian nationalist army's and uncontrolled Serbian millitia's.

I can understand that the Albanian minority's could have been a mennace to the local poppulation ,afterall shortly after the Kosovo war the same insurgents that created conflict in Kosovo (UCK) began a campaign in Macedonia.But the way the Serbian handled this was wrong in the sense that they targetted all ethnic Albanian in Kosovo rather than solelly battling the Millitia's.

See Macedonia handled that Macedonian conflict well ,rather than sending in armor devissions etc to chase out all ethnic Albanians ,they battled the millitia's only ,while otherwise they are increasing the civil rights of Albanians in the country.They targetted the real criminals behind that war while Serbia was creating a whole humanitarian disaster.

And remember that the Albanians in kosovo had really few civil rights?

Ethnic Albanians are not bad in a whoe ,there is no whole ethnicity that is bad.But it's a fact that the Albanian crime syndicate's are powerfull in Europe ,and that the ethnic Albanian refugee's are often very poor people ,thus giving lots of opportunity for the Albanian maffia to recruit among Albanians ,even those minority's abroad.In this sense having a Albanian minority in youre country can create crime problems since the Albanian maffia is well represented among them.

A way to decrease such crime by Albanian's is to increase the live standard and civil rights of those Albanians abroad ,as that will assimilate them easier into the society ,but stigmatization and exclusion of civil rights will lead to conflict.

[denoir 0]

We started hating Albanians when they begun to slaughter Serbian children and Women!

That's a nice piece of Milosevic propaganda that has very little to do with reality. The sad part is that a considerable portion of the Serbian people are convinced that's the case.

The postive signs are that they are slowly coming to terms to what happened in Bosina and what the Serbian forces did. Give it another 10-15 years and they'll come to terms with Kosovo as well.

[Iva 0]

Dont you tell me that is Milosevics propaganda! My grandfather lived there whit myy grandma! His neighbour was Albanian! They were best friends from their birth! Alen(that albanian) killed him before his entire family! my grandma shortly after that leaved kosovo whit all fortune thay had there! And for Bosnia i tell you all three presidents of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia are to blame! Just that serbia got most of tehnology and it was strongest side in war, that doesnt mean we are only to blame!

[denoir 0]

Dont you tell me that is  Milosevics propaganda! My grandfather lived there whit myy grandma! His neighbour was Albanian! They were best friends from their birth! Alen(that albanian) killed him before his entire family! my grandma shortly after that leaved kosovo whit all fortune thay had there!

Suppose for a second that I believe your story. Where in Kosovo? Second, sure, there were Albanians killing Serbs, but those were exceptions, not rules. The Serbs started a systematic ethnical cleansing of Kosovo; killed thousands of Albanians and forced away hundreds of thousands.

Quote[/b] ]And for Bosnia i tell you all three presidents of Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia are to blame!

While Croatia was involved to some degree, all the Bosnians wanted was independence. Which Milosevic could not tolerate, so he invaded. By '91 he had full control of the JNA. When Slovenia and Croatia declared themselves independent, he attacked. Bosnia followed and the same deal.

Quote[/b] ]Just that serbia got most of tehnology and it was strongest side in war, that doesnt mean we are only to blame!

Serbia was the stongest side initially since Serbia took over the JNA. In the end, you lost, both in Croatia and Bosnia. The blame is put on you because you started the wars and were responsible for the vast majority of the ethnical cleansing. Of the 200,000-250,000 casualties, over 90% were bosnian muslims killed by the Serbs. Did Croats and Muslims kill any civilians? Absoultely, but nowhere near the numbers that the systematic Serb ethnical cleansing achieved.

Furthermore another reason why Serbia is blamed is because you havn't really changed. Removing Milosevic was an internal matter for you; you didn't like him because he had destroyed Serbia economically and lost three wars.

The replacement, Kostunica was just as nationalistic as Milosevic and Serbia is yet to take responsibility for what happened in the war. You can compare it to Croatia which after Tudjman's party lost the elections, turned around, sent of all their suspected war criminals to Haag and allowed the full return of all refugees. You on the other hand have done nothing of the sort. Instead, you elected radical nationalists to the parliament.

There are postive signs though. The result of the presidential elections is one, where you chose a reformist. But as long as the people don't get to terms with the war, recognize what your military and government did, you'll stay in the dog house. I'm thinking 10-15 years before you sort out both your internal mess (crime, corruption, radical nationalism..) as well as start objectively looking at what happend during the war. Then you'll be ready to come back to the international community, join the EU etc

But it's all up to you. It ain't going to happen as long as you live in denial about the war.

[Radnik 18]

..we should ask Bush to send Serbs to Mars to explore the ground or to conquer any civilization that exists and make ethnical cleaning.... to prepare it for the Earthmans...

P.S. Pozdrav Iva

[Apollo 0]

Noonody blames the whole Serbian people for the genocide ,we are well aware of the fact that it was a minority of ultra nationalists that is mostly responsible for that.

But as long as those ultra nationalists have a fair share of influence among the Serbian people will the EU and the rest of the world community be vigilant about Serbia.

Noobody blame's all Germans for the holocoast ,but a new Fasict goverment in germany wouldn't be tollerated neither ,neither would the Allies have trusted a new Germany after WWII that would be ruled by a facist party.

So you have to keep this in perspetive ,nobody hates Serb's ,but we are aware that Nationalism is very strong among Serbians and that scares it's neighbouring country's.

[mr_rOk 0]

Iva, I'm sorry but you don't understand.

Tito's Yugoslavia had kept things in check for almost 50 years. As soon as he died, the Serbian nationalist ego awoke through the form of Slobodan MiloÅ¡ević, who then exploited it for the good of himself and the select few.

I know you are of Serbian nationality, I mean not to offend you, but open your eyes, read a couple of books on how MiloÅ¡ević ran the state for 10-12 years and there's the indesputable fact that JNA started all the wars in ex-Yugoslavia.

Genocide was commited by all sides, true but again Serbs through JNA and Arkan's tigers and similar started it all. Looting, rape, pillage, can't imagine how it must have been for everyone.

I'm glad we kicked JNA's ass in those 10 days of Slovenia's war for independence, look where we are now, EU, NATO, memberhip in almost every organisation imaginable (even the crappy ones, in the Euro-Atlantic area), our companies are building up their assets throughout the ex-Yuga. They think even further, the entire Balkan peninsula.

And in Serbia again, Seselj is climbing to power. Hope you and him don't repeat the same mistakes.

btw, love your M-80! it's fantastic

oh @ denoir:

Tudjman and Milosevic agreed to split Bosnia in half, so Croatia isn't only partially involved in this, nor it is only a victim

[denoir 0]

oh @ denoir:

Tudjman and Milosevic agreed to split Bosnia in half, so Croatia isn't only partially involved in this, nor it is only a victim

I referred to the systematic genocide comitted, not the territorial disputes. Everybody was involved in that. As for Tudjman and Milosevic agreeing to split Bosna, that's probably more myth than fact. The actual arrangement shows a completely different picture. Apart from a few moths, the Muslims and the Croats were fully allied. And that's what we see in Bosnia today - two states - one Muslim & Croatian and one Serbian.

Don't take me wrong, Tudjman was up to his neck in Bosnia and Croatia had a very cordial relationship with the Bosnian Croats (whose biggest ambition was to join Croatia, which Tudjman of course wholeheartedly supported).

Now as for Serbia, there has been a very common theme here. First it was the evil Croats who hated all Serbs, then it was the evil muslims who hated them, then it was the evil Albanians and now it is the evil world that hates and conspires against the poor innocent Serbian nation. So there is a tradition of playing the innocent victim. Why? Media and nationalism.

When all these events unfolded, the state media was the only regular source of information. Milosevic's justification for every war was the same: Serbs were being abused, killed, raped etc In short the same old rethorics that Hitler used to 'liberate' the Sudetenland district of Czechoslovakia.

With the free media now, things are slowly coming to light, but it's not an easy process from thinking that you were a victim to that you were the agressor. Plus electing ultra-nationalists like Seselj doesn't exactly make things easier.

There is however also a common international misconception of Milosevic. He is compared to Saddam and other notorious dictators, which is way off. Milosevic was corrupt. He controlled the media and some of the more prominent dissidents spent a month or two in jail. But there were no killings, torture etc He was (sort of) democratically elected as well. And he did not get kicked out of power because he ordered ethnical cleansings etc He was kicked out because he drove Serbia into the ground economically, politically etc He was not kicked out for what he was responsible for in three wars, but because he lost them.

As for the NATO intervention in Kosovo, it was the right thing to do, but it was done completely wrong. I was with KFOR in 2001, part of a team doing a post-conflict eval of "Operation Allied Force", so I can speak with some authority on the subject.

From a military perspective the bombing was utterly useless. Very little Yugoslav military hardware was destroyed. The exodus of Albanians accelerated both due to the bombings as well as the Yugoslav paramilitary forces stepping up their cleansing. Plus a lot of Albanians were killed by NATO bombs (refugee convoys mistaken for military forces etc).

The last phase of the bombing was after NATO command had realized that trying to take out individual tanks wasn't working. And it was the bombing of civilian infrastructure: electrial, water and heating plants, TV-stations, bridges etc

The idea was to make life as difficult as possible for the people in Serbia so that Milosevic would be forced to step down. By that time the Yugoslav paramilitary forces were nearly done with their ethnical cleansing so Milosevic could back down. The last phase of the bombing is IMO not justifiable in any way and neither was the bombing of Belgrade. Had it not been the strongest western countries involved then there would have been talk of war crimes.

However - and this is an important point - while the way the intervention was executed was bad, it started for a reason. And it is not beacause the world hates Serbia and Serbs, but because yet another genocide was being comitted. So Serbia was not a victim of some form of random 'international violence'.

[Rishon 0]

I have to agree with Denior Somewhat on this one. As much as it pains me

[Radnik 18]

again and again and again, blackmail...

we support you in any way "BUT"...you must deliver Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic...bla bla bla

it is classic blackmail from U.S to Boris Tadic new Serbian president ( my favorite )

@denir

is this the right way to solve relations and when will be end of "only when you do that we will give you $100.000.000 and so...?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]is this the right way to solve relations and when will be end of "only when you do that we will give you $100.000.000 and so...?

It won't be the end by far ,it will be a very gradual process.

Look at turkey for ex. ,they might join the EU in 5-10 years ,but it took them decade's for to put all the reforms trough that Europe wanted.However ,grudually as they improve their relations with the EU increase and this has short term advantage's to ,turkey's economůy and tourism has grown a lot by better relations with the rest of Europe ,multiple investor's build hotels all over Turkey among them Greek investor's who feel confidednt about Turkey now it backed down in cyprus.

But to every wish of the EU that Serbia put's trough the better their situation will become graduatly.It could happen fast to ,but i don't think that Serbia is politicly ready for it just like it tok Turkey to get politicly "ready" .

Look at it from this perspective.Slovenia is now an EU country ,that means they can live and work anywhere in the EU they want.Kroatia is on the good way to.In the future should the EU be able to get all the Yougoslavian country's among its members then All serbs will be free to move and live anywhere within the Yougoslavian country's ,or to Albania if its incorperated to.

Why conquer it if you can become an equal part of it?And once youre part of EU the incomming funds will be considerable.

[Radnik 18]

...my opinion is that Serbia will join EU for about 10-15 years  

...Turkey could not compare with Serbia, thoug i think that most like 98 % countries can't, cose unique situation in Serbia...

i mean, we went into 4 wars ( Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and NATO campaign ) and lost all, we hade U.N economy sanctions i think since 1992-1995 (i remember when inflation was couple of millions % , we hade 500.000.000.000 din banknote and i could not buy a 5l of gas), corect me if i'm wrong, in all that about (1990-2001) 15 yerars + "democratic transition", people do not have much choise u see...

...everybody is talling about EU, but we now allready have close to 800.000 jobless, that way only strong countries can join EU and hold in it for about 10years ( i wish Slovenia much luck )

...to enter in to EU is very painful proces and Serbian people can't stand it from economy side...average salary is 180 euro m8 right now...and where i could travel with that money ?

[Radnik 18]

Now as for Serbia, there has been a very common theme here. First it was the evil Croats who hated all Serbs, then it was the evil muslims who hated them, then it was the evil Albanians and now it is the evil world that hates and conspires against the poor innocent Serbian nation. So there is a tradition of playing the innocent victim. Why? Media and nationalism.

...NO NO NO and NO it is and just first one...media was in hands of government and her tool to make atmosphere like it was...

let me ask you something; is George Bush less nationalist if he would put down his badge of american flag that caries on every clothes ?

...and his statement about "defending american people" in Avganistan, Iraq...

...its same shit with Slobodan Milosevic, he was defending Serbian people in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo  

[ralphwiggum 6]

Now as for Serbia, there has been a very common theme here. First it was the evil Croats who hated all Serbs, then it was the evil muslims who hated them, then it was the evil Albanians and now it is the evil world that hates and conspires against the poor innocent Serbian nation. So there is a tradition of playing the innocent victim. Why? Media and nationalism.

...NO NO NO and NO it is and just first one...media was in hands of government and her tool to make atmosphere like it was...

let me ask you something; is George Bush less nationalist if he would put down his badge of american flag that caries on every clothes ?

...and his statement about "defending american people" in Avganistan, Iraq...

...its same shit with Slobodan Milosevic, he was defending Serbian people in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo  

tada! now you are trying to redirect the conversation away from its topic.

..and justifying a genocide. currently many nations oppose the US led invasion and is not helping it out. with Serbia no one helped or assisted Serbia's own act. By pulling in this comparison with Bush, which is wrong in itself, the argument that Serbians were in this inly strengthens.

[Radnik 18]

...well, its not purpose  

but since topic is about Kosovo, denoir allways have something to say about Bosnia and Tito and mostly about 1992-1995 period and i do not minde to talk about it but why u do not warn him as well ?

...im not justifying no one, we have to pay the price what we have done, ok, and as for Bush arguments was the same,

...like Serbian army shoud walk in to Albania with argument that its threat to Serbian people and defending Serbian people of future atacks that it mite be, right ?, not ethnical cleaning just same way as U.S in Iraq...

[denoir 0]

I'd say the comparison is in place, but there are a few differences. Iraq is more of a colonial war, while the war in ex-Yugoslavia was a much more traditional European war simply over territory. The US has no plans in annexing Iraq and making it part of the US.

Also the type of military conduct is different. The US troops don't perform systematic ethnical cleansing etc

[Radnik 18]

The US troops don't perform systematic ethnical cleansing etc

...lol... you are doing this on purpose denoir

[Norris 0]

People who don't understand the situation in the Balkans should really mind their own business. There are so many people who 'know' what must be done that it sickens me, honestly. EU and US have made a terrible mess and now they're reluctant to correct it. They should have either stayed away from it or finish what they started. But I'm afraid it'll always be the same, everybody just wants to make profit out of conflicts.

IMO the sqipetars in Kosovo should be deported to their beloved albania, if they like it so much. But what do I know, I know only about a few dozen of them.

[denoir 0]

Court cuts Bosnian Croat sentence [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

Former Bosnian Croat General Tihomir Blaskic, jailed for war crimes and ethnic cleansing, has had his sentence reduced from 45 years to nine.

Appeals judges at the war crimes tribunal at The Hague also quashed most of the charges against him.

Blaskic, 43, was convicted in 2000 in connection with a massacre in central Bosnia, in which about 100 Muslims were killed by Croat forces in 1993.

His 45-year sentence was among the harshest handed down by the tribunal. Former Bosnian Serb General Radislav Krstic is currently appealing against a 46-year jail term for genocide at Srebrenica and municipal official Milomir Stakic is serving a life sentence over the persecutions of Bosnian Muslims in the Bosnian town of Prijedor.

Time served

Blaskic was commander of the Croatian forces when Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims were fighting between 1993 and 1994. The reduction in sentence means Blaskic may serve only a few more months in custody, once the time he has already served has been taken into account, and he takes up his right to apply for early release.

He was cleared of all but three of the 19 counts against him, including convictions for ordering the attack on the town of Ahmici and being responsible for troops that committed the atrocities. Family and friends in the public gallery applauded as the ruling was given.

UN court spokesman Jim Landale said Blaskic would have to apply for early release if he wanted to be set free before he had served the full nine years. Tribunal judges upheld convictions for illegal detainment and inhumane treatment of prisoners.

They said the appeal followed "an enormous amount of additional evidence" due to the lack of co-operation on the part of the Republic of Croatia before the death of former president Franjo Tudjman in December 1999.

Archive material was only made available after Tudjman's death.

There's quite an interesting story behind it. The guy was set up to take the blame. In reality in Bosnia, there was a parallel chain of command; one regular where Blaskic was in command and one secret controlled by ultra-nationalists with close ties to Tudjman's administration (close enough to give control, but indirect to provide deniability). As a token of cooperation with the Hague the Tudjman administration hanged out Blaskic - to conceal how it really worked. When Tudjman's party lost power, the military archives were opened and there was plenty of documentation to clear Blaskic. He appealed and now the majority of the convictions have been overturned.

It is basically the same setup that Milosevic had with the Bosnian Serbs (and later in Kosovo as well). You have the regular military that behaves like a military should (more or less respecting Geneva etc) and a paramilitary that does the nasty stuff. The paramilitaries get their weapons from the regular military and are led by a bunch of ultra-nationalists. The official government denies any cooperation with the paramilitary forces while in fact they control them.

That's why it is very difficult to prove a direct case against Milosevic. It is very unlikely that he directly ordered ethnical cleansing - and much less that it went through official channels or was documented.

[Radnik 18]

so here we go...Milosevic is start to defending him self and i if you ask me, he has more powerfull arguments and proofs rather then prosecutors in all field off accusation.

...and if he after all get a way with this i have my uncles SHOTGUN loaded    

*EDIT* i would like to hear what denoir have to say about this    

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

so here we go...Milosevic is start to defending him self and i if you ask me, he has more powerfull arguments and proofs rather then prosecutors in all field off accusation.

...and if he after all get a way with this i have my uncles SHOTGUN loaded    

*EDIT* i would like to hear what denoir have to say about this    

If Milosevic goes free, the ICC will have lost its credibility and may as well not exist. I hope he gets life.

[Radnik 18]

the ICC will have lost its credibility

...im very persued that ICC or what ever his name is will crumble him self  

and why Saddam isnt there if it is ICC "#%$"%