Explosion in madrid

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

Looks to me that BN880 is hoping that it's AQ for political reasons.

[red oct 2]

whats that suppose to mean?

[bn880 5]

I realize logic is your weak point, so, hmm, I guess it's like adding 2 + 2 together.

[KaRRiLLioN 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Why do I still see ETA in these posts?  What have you people been smoking?    Seriously, so far it smells and looks like Al Qaeda, so.... no amount of discussion is going to change facts.  Until there is some other proof, it was Al Qaeda.

EDIT: Need I remind anyone that Spain took part in the illegal invasion of Iraq?  And this could be a revenge, payback.

I don't think it takes a logical genius to infer it from your post.

I thought that AQ hated Saddam and had no collusion with him.  Why would they want to exact revenge? I would think they'd send a thank-you card instead.  Your logic is what doesn't add up.

On the tragedy, this is definitely a wakeup call.  Regardless of which terrorist group perpetrated this, you can bet that others will try to copy-cat it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

One thing is clear. If Al quaida is behind this then the war in Iraq has done NOTHING against terorism! It has not been weakend AT ALL. So even if Bush calls it a "war on teror" he has failed. Mission failed in all points concerned. And even Mr. Aznar has failed! What a boomerang. You got far away to Iraq to destroy terorism and then it comes back home. Where are your soldiers Mr. Aznar? "well they are in Iraq". Arent they a bit too far behind the actual battlefront? Well Mr. Anzar, how much did the Iraq crussade cost you? And how much would those financial resources helped your internal secret service. Wait, didnt your police just caught a truck with 500kg of explosives. Seems they do a better job with less money back in spain.

Oh and about the war in iraq. A US president who thinks that investing 20 times more in a single war than the total national budget for foreign aid, do you think he realy cares about democracy and liberty in Iraq? Who can be that naive? Maybe you should choose your coalition a bit more wisely!

[frk19732001 0]

don't always believe what you ear

but for sure this doesn't look like ETA's actions all looked to be very nicely planned simultaneous explosions and some other planned to explode at rescue teams arrival.

hummmm

[denoir 0]

Last year ETA was responsible for three deaths. The overall conclusion was that due to the fact that the Basque minority in Spain do not at all support them, that the organization was dying. Either way we can conclude that this was not a typical ETA attack for the following reasons that have been mentioned earlier:

1. Indiscriminate attack on civilians

In the past ETA has always targeted government individuals, police and military.

2. No warning

In the past ETA has always called before blowing up buildings and larger stuff, allowing an evacuation of civilians.

3. No claim of responsibility

In the past ETA has always directly claimed responsibility for their attacks.

So if it is ETA, then we're looking at a brand new ETA with a completely different rulebook.

The most similar attack that I can think of were the Istambul attacks: multiple bombs detonated during rush-hour in areas full of civilians. No direct claim of responsibility was made there either. Pointing out ETA is a natural reaction as they are the terrorist group associated with Spain. I'm not at all sure that such a reaction is correct. It simply doesn't add up when you look at ETA's past actions. There is of course always the possibility of a third party. There are plenty of terrorist organizations in the world that are neither ETA nor AQ.

Regardless of who did it we can be sure that there was one recurring thing: lack of intelligence. You can't protect an open democratic society from within. As long as people can move freely, they can cause a lot of damage with a minimal effort. So any standard police action is basically ruled out. You simply can't have that tight security unless you want to devolve to some form of Orwellian totalitarian society. Going after terrorists with tanks á la USA is equally worthless. Not only does it not work at all, but the people on the recieving end of the bombs only become more sympathetic to the terrorists. The "War on Terror" like in Afghanistan was just plain bad thinking. And then it was abandoned for going after Iraq which ultimately in turn just made the situation worse as the terrorists just got more popular support in the Arab world. Anyhow, it's very clear that it is not the way to go.

What we need is humint - human intelligence. We need people that infiltrate the terrorist networks. We need to pinpoint the leaders and then use special forces to take out those individuals. A good example of a sucessful destruction of a terrorist network is how the French dealt with their Algerian problem. You infiltrate, you identify and you eliminate. Without a leadership terrorists can't do anything. The whole thing has to be coordinate. You need ideology, planning and not to mention logistics. Cut of the head and the body will die. Forget about all large scale operations. This can't be solved by carpet-bombing.

[Impavido 0]

This is home-grown Spanish Terrorism. I don't think AQ can be blamed for it.

Why Spain? They are political supporters of GW but they are not as high profile as the Brits. The UK has helped with lots of rhetoric and even had their military fight sied by side in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is a Spanish domestic issue, the ETA or something else.

Americans blamed all sort of foreigners on the Oklahoma City bombing only to learn it was some anti-gov't group of rednecks.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]

Why do I still see ETA in these posts? What have you people been smoking? Seriously, so far it smells and looks like Al Qaeda, so.... no amount of discussion is going to change facts. Until there is some other proof, it was Al Qaeda.

EDIT: Need I remind anyone that Spain took part in the illegal invasion of Iraq? And this could be a revenge, payback.

I don't think it takes a logical genius to infer it from your post.

I thought that AQ hated Saddam and had no collusion with him. Why would they want to exact revenge? I would think they'd send a thank-you card instead. Your logic is what doesn't add up.

On the tragedy, this is definitely a wakeup call. Regardless of which terrorist group perpetrated this, you can bet that others will try to copy-cat it.

Every post I have seen you make in OT, I see as being wrong and incorrect.

So is this one, Al Qaeda is actually upset at what has happened to people in Iraq at the hands of the infidels if you will.

WHAT WAKEUP CALL?? To go ang f****g invade more counties along with Bush? Which is logically brininging more terrorists into the picture?

Why you dropped that piece of shit line at me I don't know, but let's examine why you would say that:

I have political reasons for it to be Al Qaeda? So you are implying I belong to some sort of political group or terrorist group? Was I also hoping for the US to step up the offensive this year in Afghanistan, or to look for Bin Laden more vigorously? Well I talked about those too. Did I hope for the US to invade Iraq? I thought they would and said so. When I told Dinger on Sunday that Schumacher will win the F1 race was I hoping he would?

So, no it doesn't take a logic genius to infer from my post that I see it as all evidence pointing to the general war on terror and Alqaeda, yet you infer that I have made these statements for political reasons.

FYI, when I talk to some people on the forums, I expect you not to get most of my points, because you are always trying to find the wrong answer.

So, you try to analyze me and I will do the same to you, we shall see who is going to like it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

This is home-grown Spanish Terrorism.  I don't think AQ can be blamed for it.

Why Spain?  They are political supporters of GW but they are not as high profile as the Brits.  The UK has helped with lots of rhetoric and even had their military fight sied by side in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is a Spanish domestic issue, the ETA or something else.  

Americans blamed all sort of foreigners on the Oklahoma City bombing only to learn it was some anti-gov't group of rednecks.

Because spain has a strong islamic network! And maybe because these islamic terorists lived in spain already before 9/11. And maybe something simillar is already being planed in the UK. Who knows?

But whether it was Al Quaida or ETA hasnt been cleared yet

[Ezekiel225 0]

I know it is kind of harsh what I'm saying, but if our economy stays unharmed from this bloodshed... Terrorism is nothing more than a splinter in your butt.

Well, it may not be more than a splinter in your butt.

But it is more than that for me, cause my girlfriend could have catched the train that exploded in Atocha if there had not been a teacher's strike in her university at Cantoblanco where that train was going to; cause my fried goes to the university in the station between Sta. Eugenia and El Pozo, cause his girlfriend studies at Cantoblanco too, cause his father saw the explosion and the corpses flying away form the wagon, cause another friend of mine was 5 minutes away from Atocha,  going to Cantoblanco too.

I think that terrorism is more than a splinter in the butt of the families of the 200 death too, pedazo de gilipollas.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Certain evidence has started to point to Al Qaida

Quote[/b] ]On Thursday evening a statement attributed to al-Qaeda and sent to the London-based daily al-Quds appeared to claim responsibility for the bombings.

But US officials have told the BBC that the purported al-Qaeda claims should be treated with caution.

They say it is not al-Qaeda's usual habit to claim responsibility so early and that the investigation is still in its early stages.

But this is the most telling evidence

Quote ]Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes revealed that an Islamic tape had been found with detonators in a stolen van recovered near Madrid.

The van was found in the town of Alcala de Henares - where three of the four bombed trains originated. The other train passed through the town.

</b>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3501364.stm

The Four Key posibilities are

1) A radical new post ETA Basque Group

2) A Basque group in conjunction with an Al Qaida cell

3) Al Qaida

4) ETA

Some pointers

* The Modus Operandi (MO)of use of a mobile phone trigger is Al Qaida but such things can be copied

* The use of multiple bombs all introduced to trains at the same time in a sychronised attack is pure Al Qaida MO and takes months of training and rehearsal and a large team including and thorough reconasence over weeks or even months

* The cost of such an activity is outside ETA's bank balance but not Al Qaida's millions and possibly with adition of Sadam's billions which have never been recovered

* The weapon used was dynamite a typical ETA explosive but one any one involved in terrorism would use

* ETA has always given warnings

* ETA has not made a habit of Attacking civilians

* Spain is ETA's stomping ground

* The world is Al Qaida's stomping ground

* The target choice is typical Al Qaida ie Soft Targets no where where they could get caught or have any resistence

* The target type is one where Al Qaida and other Islamic groups have had success public trains ETA has wanted to bomb trains but so far has had no success

* General support for ETA and seperatism has been on the wain for some time since Spain joined the EEC and gave each area a degree of automony

* Most of the old guard ETA have been arested

If it is a Basque group then it is not likely to be old guard ETA it is more likely to be a group of younger mare radical Basques.

All in all the most telling items are the van at the station where all three trains originated an the fourth went through and the economics involved in the attack; both those point at Al Qaida.

Kind Regards Walker

[Pukko 0]

A sad day indeed.     May they rest in peace, and the wounded & the families live a good and peaceful life.

But I also can't but feel sad over the fact that its so much easier to feel sympathy for fellow westerners killed, than it is when '3rd' world humans are....... Just a week ago ~170 Iraqis got killed from bombs, and there are so many more real bad '3rd' world catastrophies that has happened, recently or in the past - for how long do we remember them, and how much do we care??

And regarding the ones behind this terrible slaughter & the fact that a tape containing verses of the Koran was found amongst detonators in a truck:

Do anyone remember the car parked at Boston airport on 9/11, containing a Koran, aircraft pilotmanual and a Tom Clancy book in which was described how airplanes was used against buildings?? Kind of doubtful to say the least.

Now I dont want to bring this thread in a different direction, or be provocative. But i can't really say that I am convinced that Al Queda really was behind 9/11. I have not looked to deep into it lately indeed, but there has never been any credible official statement from Al Queda, or? Just hours after the attacks Al Queda was considered guilty by almost everyone, and no other was ever seriously considered. There were some pictures from airport cameras showing the suspected ones realeased some week later - hardly solid evidence? And the only trial that I know of related to 9/11 (in Germany) was recently closed down. Personally I have always considered pissed off Latin Americans as possibly the ones behind 9/11.

Not really important or relevant here, but non the less interesting to make the comparison, especially considering 'muslim traces left behind in a vehicle'....

[Acecombat 0]

Damn my condolences to the familys of the demised.

Coming to the bombing , this all leaving quran behind bullshit is too fishy for me they never do such stuff , i mean why would one leave it behind or bring it in the firstplace?

This wasnt a suicide bombing the terrorist wasnt uttring his last prayers to BRING the quran to rad from (though i dont think prayer or quran would help the basta*d any either here or upstairs) ....

It seems AQ might tak the fall for it .... even if they havent done it. Maybe they might wanna take it too just to piss the yanks and their futile war on terror efforts in Iraq

[brgnorway 0]

This bombing in Spain happened exactly 911 days after 911!

Coincidence?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

yes coincidence. Also the war in iraq happens in the year of the monkey, just like Vietnam!

[brgnorway 0]

yes coincidence. Also the war in iraq happens in the year of the monkey, just like Vietnam!

Well, maybe or maybe not. If it's proved to be an act of Al Qaida - wouldn't you then say it has a pretty strong symbolic meaning?

[ralphwiggum 6]

The AQ version on the other hand would mean that it is much more difficult to bring the guilty to justice. Also, then it's not an attack on Spain, but an attack on Europe and could easily be repeated in any other European country. It would however be more easy to understand the motivation behind it (ideology, revenge, religious fanaticism...).

My current guess is that AQ has not much to do with attacking Europe, but more like Spain, if there is a reason to do so. It seems a bit off that this did not happen in UK, closer friend of US.

leaving Coranic tapes and detonators on a crimescene is somewhat ... amateurist behaviour ...

Could be an ETA cover-up ...

good point. so obvious. i don't think AQ leaves much of clue on themselves. like this.

my guess so far is that it's splinter cell of ETA or maybe Spain's own newly grown domestic group. but i can't think of a new group just springing up.

[ralphwiggum 6]

yes coincidence. Also the war in iraq happens in the year of the monkey, just like Vietnam!

with a monkey in the whitehouse

[bn880 5]

Honestly guys, think for a second about this coverup theory, put yourself in the shoes of ETA or Basque, now, think motive and coverup.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]My current guess is that AQ has not much to do with attacking Europe, but more like Spain, if there is a reason to do so. It seems a bit off that this did not happen in UK, closer friend of US.

No mater what part of UK they will attack, the chances are… they will kill more “jihad followers†then Brits.  Including those 5 f_heads who was set free in 2 hours after arrival yesterday.  :-(

And to be serious... I think there is no logic for them what country to attack, they just did it in places they can.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Honestly guys, think for a second about this coverup theory, put yourself in the shoes of ETA or Basque, now, think motive and coverup.

When you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebra. Just go ahead and think horse.

[thirtyg 0]

Quote[/b] ]'This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam' - Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigade in claiming responsiblility for the worst terrorist attack on a European city since Wolrd War II.

As others have said if ETA did such a large wholesale attack it would represent a major shift in tactics. It does not compare with anything they have done before it is totally unlike their usual MO.

I cannot see the benefit of ETA trying to blame this attack on AQ, if anything that would hurt their chances of independence as western european's forget about traditional borders and start to come togther as a united people against such evil.

As bad as this sounds one can only hope this was an isolated splinter ETA cell attack. Should AQ be regrouping and rearming against the 'crusaders' who will be next  England, Australia??

[Guba 0]

First of all I want to express my most sincere condolence and solidarity to the families of the victims and to the citizens of Madrid and condemn this terrible act of cruelty and cowardice.

I also want to express an opinion that has partialy been stated here:

Can this be a maneuver from ETA to make spanish society think this is the Al Qaeda's vengeance to the spanish government contribution on the war in Irak? Do they intend to make citizens, the vast majority of them aganst war, blame the actual government party (PP) for it when they go to vote on this Sunday's general elections? Remember that it was thanks to PP's efforts that Batasuna, the political branch of ETA, was ilegalized and that this party has many time's stated that it will never negotiate with terrorists. As some of you already said "leaving Coranic tapes and detonators on a crimescene is somewhat ... amateurist behaviour ... ". Couldn't this, togheter with the odd letter sent to that arab newspaper in London, be part of another maneuver from ETA looking to cause confusion and divide spanish society?

They already tried to do this on Chirstmas eve when the police managed to deactive some explosives placed in Chamartin, another important railroad station in Madrid. Some weeks ago a van loaded with the same type of explosive to the one used today was also intercepted on its way to Madrid. An the fact that some important leading members of ETA have been captured during the last months, breaking the group's structure and coordination, might be the reason which has lead it's remaining members to desperatly act in this unprecedented and extremely coward way, which it is said not to adjust to the band's modus operandi, and that has ended with this massacre we are, sadly, now talking about. This is not the first time though they target civilians indisriminately. Back in 1987 they killed 21 after detonating a bomb in a supermarket in Barcelona, and it was just a few years ago when they placed some explosives in a tourist resort in Valencia which could have caused a similar carnage to the one in Madrid.

Even though, despite this and what ever happens on Sunday's elections, democracy will win and neither ETA or whoever is behind this will ever take that away.

Ezekiel y a todos los madrileńos, des de Girona os mandamos nuestro más profundo sentimiento de pesar y sentimiento de solidaridad. Estamos con vosotros!

[bn880 5]

@ Mar. 11 2004,21:07)]

Honestly guys, think for a second about this coverup theory, put yourself in the shoes of ETA or Basque, now, think motive and coverup.

When you hear hoofbeats, don't think zebra. Just go ahead and think horse.

Think tape recording.