Us presidential election 2004

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]They declared war on you and attacked you. Iraq did not.

No, Iraq just took potshots at patrolling US aircraft for a decade. If you're wondering whether taking potshots is considered hostile action, then you can easily do a home test by throwing a Molotov cocktail near a passing police car.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]They declared war on you and attacked you. Iraq did not.

No, Iraq just took potshots at passing US aircraft for a decade. If you're wondering whether taking potshots is considered hostile action, then you can easily do a home test by throwing a Molotov cocktail near a passing police car.

Nothing worse than someone shooting at a plane over their own territory.

Also, fyi, they would take potshots and then those AA facilities would be blown up. Hardly grounds for a full scale invasion.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]i hate Bush so much i would consider going to Mexico a small step up. after all thats were all of our jobs seem to be heading, not that you care of course.

Yeah, I'm a millionaire.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....3185230

Quote[/b] ]

Bush looks for change and continuity in new cabinet

29 minutes ago Politics - AFP

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US President George W. Bush (news - web sites)'s re-election could herald a new look for his administration, with expectations that he will reshuffle his cabinet while maintaining enough continuity to tackle his priorities: Iraq (news - web sites) and the war on terror.

The biggest change could be in his diplomatic team, with Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), 67, widely tipped to leave his post.

Powell was known to have strong differences with Bush on key areas of foreign policy and was often seen as being cut out of some major decision making, having come off worse in a battle with the Pentagon (news - web sites) for influence with the president's inner circle.

A possible successor to Powell is John Danforth, the US ambassador to the United Nations (news - web sites), whose name has frequently been linked with the job, even though he was appointed to his current post just a few months ago.

Danforth, 68, is a conservative known for his diplomatic skills. He would likely exert a moderate line, essential to smoothing over cracks in international partnerships because of the Iraq war.

Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 72, is not expected to last through a second Bush administration, although observers say he may well remain at the Pentagon helm for another year in the hope of overseeing some amelioration of the situation in Iraq.

Bush backed Rumsfeld amid calls for the secretary's resignation in the wake of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

One possible replacement is Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) -- a move that would make her the first woman to run the Pentagon. She has also been linked with the Secretary of State post.

Rice, 49, has indicated that she would like to give up her current job and has even hinted at leaving the administration entirely in favour of a return to university life. Her successor as national security adviser would likely be her deputy, Steve Hadley, 54, with the architect of the Iraq war, Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, another possible candidate.

On the domestic front, John Snow, 65, is expected to stay on as secretary of the treasury, as Bush's priority in his second term will be to make his tax cuts permanent and to reform the US tax code.

At the Justice Department (news - web sites), John Ashcroft (news - web sites), 62, appointed to please the Republican Party's right wing, is widely expected to depart.

His replacement could be Tom Ridge, 59, the Homeland Security Secretary, or Rudolph Giuliani, 60, the New York City mayor at the time of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Giuliani could also replace Ridge if he moves to the Justice Department or returns to private life. Other possible scenarios include Bush replacing Ashcroft with Marc Racicot, 56, who directed his victorious re-election campaign, or Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, 57.

US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick is a possible replacement for Commerce Secretary Donald Evans, although there is speculation that he might return to private life.

Evans, a close friend of Bush, could also be replaced by one of his deputies, Peter Allgeier or Josette Sheeran Shiner, or by his undersecretary for international affairs, Grant Aldonas.

Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta (news - web sites), a Democrat, and Education Secretary Rod Paige are expected to leave their posts, as is Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham (news - web sites), who could hand his spot to Labor Secretary Elaine Chao

Shake up.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]No, Iraq just took potshots at passing US aircraft for a decade.

Really? Aircraft flying over Iraq no-fly-zone airspace is being shot at! How shocking!

Remember China forcing down your spy aircraft some time ago? Why don't you just invade them?

Hardly reason for a war, nobody even bothered to use another Tonkin Gulf Incident as an excuse.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

There is any easy way to resolve this with minimal bloodshed, give up the terrorists.

Moral high road isn't all that much fun huh?

Please explain.  I missed the point you no doubt witily made.

Denoir

Quote[/b] ]Bush and his necons, I can understand. They are idealists - utopians. What I'm surprised is how many are willing to follow their dangerous fantasy.

Liberals have their own visions and ideas of dangerous utopias.

Thank you for the link.  

In regards to the seeming inconsistencies (condom=bad, war=okay).  I am sure you could also ask, "well if the bible says turn the other cheek and Pres. Bush is a Christian, why doesn't he just follow the bible, after all he wants to ban partial birth abortion, he should just forgive the terrorists"  I am sure you can see that would not be a workable response regardless of your Christian indoctrination.

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore I'm afraid America is stuck in old-school European foreign and military policy. Europe could get away with the nasty things it did around the world because of poor communications. It isn't that way any more. You take a crap in Asia and the smell comes back right home.

The 9/11 attacks were a consequence of the crap coming home to momma. They didn't attack you just for the hell of it. Each global action now has a global reaction. So running off and invading Iraq can only make things worse; make America less safe.

Yes, this is the information age.  

Yes, we deserved to be attacked because we support Israel as our ally?

I am sure you are quite right, a great bloodletting is in order.

Blake

Quote[/b] ]Then why was Bin-Laden family flown out of the US shortly after 9/11? Are you saying that is not a fact?

What you state is a fact.  The circumstances under which that fact occurs and the underlying implications that Moore proposes are what I dispute.

Quote[/b] ]Quote  

One should ask relevant questions first, then criticize if appropriate.  Let me ease your mind,  the Bush supporters I know have lively debates on issues of President Bush's policies all the time.

He did and you have said nothing else to those questions and claims other than that they're 'Moore's propaganda'. If you have had so lively debates Bush's election-winning policies please share those opinions here too

?This was directed at you.  Bush's fear of pushing hard into Iraq because of liberal public opinion.  Bush's tax cut for the large corporations.  Christian fundementalist Republicans shared effort with the liberal (pc) left in censoring violent video games and movies or any other media that offends their sensibilities.  Lack of resolve in enforcing immigration law in the U.S. and stopping illegal immigrants at the border.  Lack of funding for the Civilian Marksmanship Program that used to get more support.  Bush's increase of entitlement programs on a level approaching Democratic "tax and spend" policies.  Just to name a few.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Well enjoy your Trillion $ deficit, Job Loss, No respect from the world for four more years.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Then why was Bin-Laden family flown out of the US shortly after 9/11? Are you saying that is not a fact?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe they left on September 13 because that was when the ban on air traffic was eased? Or does that not promote a juicy enough conspiracy theory ?

[Badgerboy 0]

Well enjoy your Trillion $ deficit, Job Loss, No respect from the world for four more years.

Quite, I've given up caring now. Eveyone seems confident of marching into a brave new Bush future.....

Try not to get drafted/unemployed or anything silly like that.

[denoir 0]

Yes, we deserved to be attacked because we support Israel as our ally?

I didn't say you deserved it - I said that there was a correlation. That there was a reason why you were attacked.

Oh and Israel isn't bin Laden's primary grievance with the US. It's the US troops in Saudi Arabia. Holy land and all that. He thinks you are corrupting the country and the region.

Now I'm not saying that you should listen to bin Laden. You should however realize that he does have a wide base of supporters that are recruited from the Arab population that isn't too crazy about you to begin with. You need to make the Arab people like you - or at least tolerate you. That will cut off the recruitment for AQ and similar organizations.

You don't go invading an Arab country and humiliate them. Now they hate you more than ever, which is reflected in for instance how AQ has grown from a relatively small organization to a huge world wide network.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh, I don't know. Maybe they left on September 13 because that was when the ban on air traffic was eased?

They left when all other aircraft was grounded. I'm not making any assumptions nor believe in conspiracy theories - I'd like to know why and nobody's giving a reason for that.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]They left when all other aircraft was grounded. I'm not making any assumptions nor believe in conspiracy theories - I'd like to know why and nobody's giving a reason for that.

Ask clarke because he was one that gave clearance.

[ericz 0]

Blake

Quote[/b] ]Quote

No, Iraq just took potshots at passing US aircraft for a decade.

Really? Aircraft flying over Iraq no-fly-zone airspace is being shot at! How shocking!

Remember China forcing down your spy aircraft some time ago? Why don't you just invade them?

Hardly reason for a war, nobody even bothered to use another Tonkin Gulf Incident as an excuse.

Hardly the same thing as China's shooting of U.S. spy aircraft.

The no-fly-zones were a construct of coalition forces to exclude Iraqi aircraft from flying in them. Not the other way around.

[denoir 0]

If you want conspiracy theories, I've got one - just saw it on the news:

The exit poll numbers only significantly differed in the counties where computer voting was used (i.e no paper trail). Where there were paper ballots, the exit polls were very accurate  

To widen the conspiracy, the CEO of the company that produces the electronic voting machines made a statement earlier promising to "deliver Ohio to Bush"    

[denoir 0]

The no-fly-zones were a construct of coalition forces to exclude Iraqi aircraft from flying in them.  Not the other way around.

Actually, the no-fly zones were a violation of Iraq's territorial integrity and of the cease-fire agreement. There was no UN mandate for them - it was just something that the US and the UK decided to do..

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

70% of ohio was paper based ballots.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]The exit poll numbers only significantly differed in the counties where computer voting was used

And the exit polls were often done in urban areas and usually favored women by a significant percentage.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not making any assumptions nor believe in conspiracy theories - I'd like to know why and nobody's giving a reason for that.

Ask Richard Clarke and the FBI, as well as whoever started easing the restrictions on air travel.

[Acecombat 0]

Just saw kerrys concession speech it was a good one i must say atleast he didnt contraditc himself in it like Bush does and it wasnt written down and read from paper it was spontaneous.

I just hope Bush settles down this time around and admits some of his mistakes which i believe he wasnt giving in to because of election? And ask for world help if he truly wants a solution to come to Iraq and Afghanistan.

If none of that happens then prepare yourself to see a more polzarized world where conservatives from your side meet with our continously in a never ending game of tag with bullets and blood across continents.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ask Richard Clarke and the FBI, as well as whoever started easing the restrictions on air travel.

Intel Officer passed some info...

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch10.htm

Quote[/b] ]

Flights of Saudi Nationals Leaving the United States

Three questions have arisen with respect to the departure of Saudi nationals from the United States in the immediate aftermath of 9/11:

(1) Did any flights of Saudi nationals take place before national airspace reopened on September 13, 2001? (2) Was there any political intervention to facilitate the departure of Saudi nationals? (3) Did the FBI screen Saudi nationals thoroughly before their departure?

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001.24 To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.25

Second, we found no evidence of political intervention. We found no evidence that anyone at the White House above the level of Richard Clarke participated in a decision on the departure of Saudi nationals. The issue came up in one of the many video teleconferences of the interagency group Clarke chaired, and Clarke said he approved of how the FBI was dealing with the matter when it came up for interagency discussion at his level. Clarke told us, "I asked the FBI, Dale Watson . . . to handle that, to check to see if that was all right with them, to see if they wanted access to any of these people, and to get back to me. And if they had no objections, it would be fine with me." Clarke added, "I have no recollection of clearing it with anybody at the White House."26

Although White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card remembered someone telling him about the Saudi request shortly after 9/11, he said he had not talked to the Saudis and did not ask anyone to do anything about it. The President and Vice President told us they were not aware of the issue at all until it surfaced much later in the media. None of the officials we interviewed recalled any intervention or direction on this matter from any political appointee.27

Third, we believe that the FBI conducted a satisfactory screening of Saudi nationals who left the United States on charter flights.28 The Saudi government was advised of and agreed to the FBI's requirements that passengers be identified and checked against various databases before the flights departed.29The Federal Aviation Administration representative working in the FBI operations center made sure that the FBI was aware of the flights of Saudi nationals and was able to screen the passengers before they were allowed to depart.30

The FBI interviewed all persons of interest on these flights prior to their departures. They concluded that none of the passengers was connected to the 9/11 attacks and have since found no evidence to change that conclusion. Our own independent review of the Saudi nationals involved confirms that no one with known links to terrorism departed on these flights.31

[Akira 0]

I doubt he will settle down. If anything he will be emboldened. He has no re-election to worry about now. He has a Repub controlled Congress. He can do whatever he wants. Abortion? War? Taxes?

Who knows.

[Taconic 0]

In Europe judging from various reports people are disappointed but at the same time there is a sense of relief. Bush getting re-elected simplifies a lot of things. A Kerry presidency would have complicated issues such as Iraq. While it is unlikely that Kerry could have significantly changed things, Europe would be obliged to cooperate more with a friendly US administration - even where it's not in Europe's interest to do so. With Bush we know where we are and have no obligation of being nice.

I seem to recall Europeans being very upset about Bush's "vengeful" policies. I guess that two wrongs do make a right in the Eastern hemisphere.

Is it really beyond the realm of possibility that Bush may actually try to improve relations with Europe? And you're going to spit in his face if he does that? That's certainly a step in the direction of mutual prosperity...

Normally I stay out of this stuff around here, but this shit pushed me over the line:

My apologies to all clear thinking Americans here, but it seems your country is uneducated, historically.

I absolutely love the European double-standard. Making denigrating, blanket statements about the United States is not only acceptable, it bespeaks of one that is "educated" and "free-thinking." However, if an American were to ever do the same to Europe, it speaks of somebody that is a "xenophobic, uneducated redneck."

America has made quite a number of advancements and has one hell of an economy for being such a backwards and uneducated nation. Just dumb luck, I guess. What is the saying? "God favors drunks, small children, and idiots"?

Quote[/b] ]Maybe that'll stop you from eagerly dishing out to "towelheads" or "gooks" in the future under the pretense of liberation and Democracy For Everyone â„¢

Man, that's a very good summary of the way that all Americans think! I think that is very similar to the way that all Europeans are facists that believe in death camps and ethnic cleansing. What? You mean that you cannot judge an entire culture by the words and actions of a few? Or does that not apply to the evil United States?

Ugh.

In any event, the reason that Bush won had absolutely nothing to do with Americans being "historically uneducated racists that are blind to the horrors of war."

The reason is two-fold (IMO.)

1: The far left shot itself in the foot. I am a centrist. I don't care if somebody is a conservative or a liberal as long as I believe that they will get the job done. Millions of Americans are just like me in this respect. Millions of Americans also got very, very sick of listening to the Left's half-baked, asinine conspiracy theories.

"BUSH HAS BIN LADEN IN A SECRET PRISON!!! HE WILL ANNOUNCE IT IN NOVEMBER SO THAT PEOPLE WILL ELECT HIM!!" "BUSH IS LIKE HITLER!!!" "BUSH IS FRIENDS WITH OSAMA BIN LADEN!!!!" And on and on and on.

This is the stuff that has been shoved down the throats of rational people in the US for the past two years by liberal extremists. It's ridiculous, and it accomplished absolutely nothing other than turning swing voters away from the very cause that they were trying to rally support for. Regardless of what some of you may think, it's absolutely no better than the far Right's claims that "Jesus likes Bush" or whatever the hell they're on about this week.

Extremism is bad. Period.

2: Kerry himself. His entire platform was "I'm not Bush." He did not sell himself. He did not really give anybody any reason to vote for him beyond "I'm not Bush." For many, that simply wasn't enough. Is it because they're all "stupid and uneducated"? No. Bush may not be a smart man or a good leader, but he has demonstrated that he has conviction (for better or for worse.) Kerry has not done this. Kerry has never been specific about his plans or what exactly he would have done differently than Bush. Many people would rather have a man of conviction than a man that will bend over backwards to appease anybody and everybody.

Did I vote for Bush? No. Did I vote for Kerry? No (not that it mattered since Kerry won every electoral vote in my state.) Both of them are travesties. One candidate is a failure and the other's only selling point is "I'm not that guy." It's disgusting that it has come to this. Jefferson would roll in his grave if he could see this election. I really, really wish that Edwards or even Clark had gotten the Democratic nod... Kerry was a terrible choice--too much baggage and absolutely no conviction. He was doomed from the start.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a racist, uneducated American.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

yeah, thas REALLY scarey, atleast when the house was somewhat split even, there was a voice of desention...now anytime Bush manages to but his two brain cells together and comes up with another dumb idea..it'll pass. The only good thing that came out of lastnight was Obama winning in Illinois...maybe the dems will get smart in 08 and have him running ..he's prolly the last non-tainted non-partisan voice the dems have

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]maybe the dems will get smart in 08 and have him running ..he's prolly the last non-tainted non-partisan voice the dems have

That is Clinton spot!

[Frisbee 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please explain. I missed the point you no doubt witily made

Terrorists kill civilians unscrupulousely, but do so "to strike at the American aggresor", the infidels, the land of the free, however you wish to put it.

You attack Iraq with most likely good intentions (hey, you're not devils, I'm not stepping over that line) but you're killing people.

Bombarding houses in urban area's with jets just doesn't seem to comply with "minimizing civilian casualties". I'm no expert by any means, but the US has to have better means than that at its disposal?

Moral high ground/road meaning that, being the good guys you have to "set the example". Condemning terrorists is hard when you're in essence almost doing the same thing (again, I'm not saying that you're worse than "the terrorists" in general, numerically maybe a worse record in Iraq, but I digress) even by accident just comes across in a strange way.

Edit :

Quote[/b] ]Extremism is bad. Period.

I agree.

[Acecombat 0]

I justw anna quote this right now since am in a  hurry but what the hell is this:

Quote[/b] ]2: Kerry himself. His entire platform was "I'm not Bush." He did not sell himself. He did not really give anybody any reason to vote for him beyond "I'm not Bush." For many, that simply wasn't enough.

IS this all america ABOUT selling yourself?

Selling the image and buying it? Were you electing a president or a Action play figure here? This isnt some product were selling here damnit this isnt Google.com or Yahoo.com whos search is better ofcourse people prefer Google since its branded itself as THE BEST however all searches are NEARLY the same by yahoo as well.

So what the **** is this with the image thing. He didnt sell himself because he didnt need to HE LET his image and past record speak for themselves , thats enough for me i dont need to READ a fuck** sign off the poster to see thta the guys trustworthy of honest.

P.S: Going to watch Bush deliver or AHEM read his speech which someone else wrote for him *cheney?* unlike Kerry who like a true statesman delivered it from his heart and spontaneously. His ability to express himself and what he felt was truly remarkable.

[ericz 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (ericz @ Nov. 03 2004,20:50)

The no-fly-zones were a construct of coalition forces to exclude Iraqi aircraft from flying in them. Not the other way around.

Actually, the no-fly zones were a violation of Iraq's territorial integrity and of the cease-fire agreement. There was no UN mandate for them - it was just something that the US and the UK decided to do..

Maybe, maybe not. They were intended to protect the Shia population. If I remember correctly, France was also part of the mix, it wasn't until later that they had an epiphany and dropped out.

"The United States and Britain argue the patrols are authorized under U.N. Security Council Resolution 688 adopted April 5, 1991. The text "condemns the repression of the Iraqi civilian population in many parts of Iraq," but it doesn't specifically mention no-fly zones. However, the overflights were never authorized by the United Nations, and were therefore illegal with respect to international law. Regardless of the legal status, the northern no-fly zone is often credited for giving the parts of the Kurdish region of Iraq de-facto independence after the Gulf War" source Wikipedia.