Us presidential election 2004

[Akira 0]

http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd2.htm

Quote[/b] ]

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX FRI SEPT 10, 2004 12:01:25 ET XXXXX

RATHER DIGS IN: THE DOCUMENTS ARE AUTHENTIC

CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather publicly defended his reporting Friday morning after questions were raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos aired on CBS which asserted that George W. Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard.

CNN TRANSCRIPT:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: I know that this story is true. I believe that the witnesses and the documents are authentic. We wouldn't have gone to air if they would not have been. There isn't going to be -- there's no -- what you're saying apology?

QUESTION: Apology or any kind of retraction or...

RATHER: Not even discussed, nor should it be. I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don't like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story, which I just gave you earlier.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CBS NEWS executives on Thursday launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

Developing...

Even the family of that dead guy who supposedly typed those memos are doubting them. Also, a lot of experts are doubting. Dems are going to f'ed if this whole crap turned out to be falsed...

In cas eyou missed the CBS news they had a story to prove that the docs were real, including the same "th" script that was used in NG docs in 1960s, and the Times New Roman font that has been available since 1931.

[denoir 0]

Even the family of that dead guy who supposedly typed those memos are doubting them. Also, a lot of experts are doubting. Dems are going to f'ed if this whole crap turned out to be falsed...

Have you noticed that the White House has not denied it at all?

Why not just do a test on the paper, if it is that important. I'm sure a different set of bleeching materials were used in the '70s.

Either way, I find the whole thing utterly uninteresting. It's a trivial and unimportant issue. Who gives a fuck about what happened 30 years ago? I'm more bothered with what Bush did one or two years ago and so should the voters.

But apparently without provocation ordering attacks on other countries is seen as a minor issue.

[Akira 0]

Even the family of that dead guy who supposedly typed those memos are doubting them. Also, a lot of experts are doubting. Dems are going to f'ed if this whole crap turned out to be falsed...

Have you noticed that the White House has not denied it at all?

Why not just do a test on the paper, if it is that important. I'm sure a different set of bleeching materials were used in the '70s.

Either way, I find the whole thing utterly uninteresting. It's a trivial and unimportant issue. Who gives a fuck about what happened 30 years ago? I'm more bothered with what Bush did one or two years ago and so should the voters.

But apparently without provocation ordering attacks on other countries is seen as a minor issue.

CBS did not have the originals. They were copies of the originals that were faxed....thats why the document clearity is not so good.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]CBS did not have the originals. They were copies of the originals that were faxed....thats why the document clearity is not so good.

Hodges says something different. Also, Manley is going against himself...

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html

Quote[/b] ]

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."

Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

http://ratherbiased.com/news/content/view/215/2

Quote[/b] ]

But Rather had to admit that the documents CBS started with were "also photocopies," and not originals. Two years ago, Matley ( http://d2d.ali-aba.org/_files....umb.pdf )wrote about dealing with copied documents in the law. For the The American Law Institute in September 2002, he wrote an essay entitled "Using and Cross-Examing Handwriting Experts." In it he said:

"The Problem with Copies: Do not passively accept a copy as the sole basis of a case. Every copy, intentionally or unintentionally, is in some way false to the original. In fact, modern copiers and computer printers are so good that they permit easy fabrication of quality forgeries."

This is Rather's compelling evidence, which contradicts scores of experts who were interviewed by other news outlets.

Quote[/b] ]In cas eyou missed the CBS news they had a story to prove that the docs were real, including the same "th" script that was used in NG docs in 1960s, and the Times New Roman font that has been available since 1931.

Did they interview Bill Flynn or anyone who disagrees with CBS? No... Anyway, CBS did get in trouble before on docs. being fake. Also, the "th" on the white house doc is different from the "th" on the new doc. ( source: http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/Pics/superth.JPG (it is down or something) ) Lastly, it is reported that CBS is (might) going to do a internal investigation.

Quote[/b] ]Who gives a fuck about what happened 30 years ago? I'm more bothered with what Bush did one or two years ago and so should the voters.

But apparently without provocation ordering attacks on other countries is seen as a minor issue.

Who first talked about it? Not me...  

[Schoeler 0]

What would Jesus do?

Ha, ha, ha! I thought this was funny. Eat that evangelical christians, your guy is the antichrist!

[Pathy 0]

Hahahaha.

[red oct 2]

thats the coolest bush relection parody EVER! thats definitly going to favorites.

[Schoeler 0]

One sunny day in 2005, an old man approached the White House from across Pennsylvania Ave where he had been sitting on a park bench. He spoke to the Marine standing guard and said, " I would like to go in and meet with President Bush." The Marine replied, "Sir. Mr. Bush is not the President and doesn't reside here." The old man said, "Okay," and walked away.

The following day the same man approached the same Marine and said, "I would like to go in and meet with President Bush." The Marine replied, "Sir Mr. Bush is not the President and doesn't reside here. The old man said. "Okay," and walked away.

The 3rd day the same man approached the same Marine, understandably agitated at this point, who looked at the man and said, "Sir, This the 3rd day in a row you have been here asking to speak with Mr. Bush I've told you already that Mr. Bush is not the President and doesn't reside here. Don't you understand?" The old man answered, "Oh, I understand I just love hearing it."

The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, "See you tomorrow."

[theavonlady 2]

Schoeler, did you find that joke at Dreamon.com?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ha, ha, ha!  I thought this was funny.  Eat that evangelical christians, your guy is the antichrist!

You are lucky that I cannot post John F. Kerry's x-box game box cover....  (goes against the rules...uses a slur for Vietnamese.... )

So it goes,

Billybob2002

[BoweryBaker 0]

What are the three major signs of world chaos? War, Poverty, and Famine. We're in the first, some of us have seen the second, and the third its very likely we'll never see unless you live in the appalachian trail or down south with no car.

I honestly think no nation state has immediate plans to take us out just like that. They'll wait till we strike first and Bush is the guy who will strike first so i see that happening. The only real people who will strike us first no matter what is the extremists.

I read two Thomas Jefferson quotes that swayed me towards Kerry: "How much have cost us the evils that never happened?" - Thomas Jefferson

He was asking to make you realize that if nothing happens we'll be safe. It won't cust us nothing. Not a life, not a penny, not a risk. If something DOES happen there WILL be costs. The evils that could happen or don't happen we shouldn't care about them, be prepared yes, but don't try to strike first, thats just stupid. It's putting lives at risk needlessly.

Now another quote from Americas third president:

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

Well now. That is a good one. Our labors have clearly been wasted under the pretense of taking care of ourselves, specifically overseas helping other nations.

Basically what im saying here is President Bush is needlessly putting American lives at risk over a pseudo threat.

I believe we'll still be alright if we just bring the troops home now.

[Schoeler 0]

BoweryBaker,

Another one for you:

"Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security."

-Ben Franklin

Kinda makes you think about the Patriot Act a bit doesn't it?

Franklin also said:

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

So you know he was a pretty sharp guy!

Lastly:

"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise."

So I guess Bush would call Ben Franklin a flip-flopper too. I call him and others like him someone smart enough to learn from their mistakes.

[theavonlady 2]

BoweryBaker,

Another one for you:

"Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security."

-Ben Franklin

Kinda makes you think about the Patriot Act a bit doesn't it?

This is what happens when you abridge quotations. The original quotation is:

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

You left out two essential words whose nuances cannot be under-estimated.

[Schoeler 0]

Still fits. The Patriot Act suspends individual warrants in favor of blanket warrants in direct contravention to the 4th Amendment. The Supreme Court will stomp it to death for that as soon as someone brings a challenge in front of it.

It also plays hanky panky with the 5th and 6th Amendments and Habeus Corpus with people being whisked off into the nacht and nebel (night and fog a term the SS used for their program that made people disappear) to Guantanamo Bay.

[BoweryBaker 0]

God Bless America. You two, i want to call you kids because you're so much smarter than me, people are worth your weight in gold. True valiant human beings.

[Akira 0]

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."

-Thomas Jefferson

[ralphwiggum 6]

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."

-Thomas Jefferson

that's why no one messes with Alan Greenspan.

[theavonlady 2]

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."

-Thomas Jefferson

that's why no one messes with Alan Greenspan.

They never impressed Bonnie and Clyde.

[Bernadotte 0]

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."

-Thomas Jefferson

that's why no one messes with Alan Greenspan.

In fact, I've often speculated these past few years that Allan Greenspan would be a very significant target of an Al Qaida strike.  And when the recent Terrorism Alerts warned that American financial institutes could be targeted it made me wonder whether security increases applied to more than just buildings.  I believe the short-term economic impact of something happening to Greenspan could easily exceed that of the 11 September attacks.  Let's hope this risk is not lost on the Secret Service.

[theavonlady 2]

"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies."

-Thomas Jefferson

that's why no one messes with Alan Greenspan.

In fact, I've often speculated these past few years that Allan Greenspan would be a very significant target of an Al Qaida strike.  And when the recent Terrorism Alerts warned that American financial institutes could be targeted it made me wonder whether security increases applied to more than just buildings.  I believe the short-term economic impact of something happening to Greenspan could easily exceed that of the 11 September attacks.  Let's hope this risk is not lost on the Secret Service.

FYI Allan Greenspan is 78 years old.

Be afraid! Be very afraid!

[denoir 0]

Kerry on attack over weapons ban [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]John Kerry criticises President Bush for failing to push for an extended ban on assault weapons....

Bah, Kerry is such a pussy. He should have pushed the terror button far more. It should have sounded something like this:

"Now <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>TERRORISTS</span> will be able to buy <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>ASSAULT RIFLES</span> and <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>KILL YOUR CHILDREN - AS IT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA</span> clearly Bush does not understand that we live in a <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>POST-911 WORLD</span> and that we can't take certain things for granted, like we used to."

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Now TERRORISTS will be able to buy ASSAULT RIFLES and KILL YOUR CHILDREN - AS IT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA clearly Bush does not understand that we live in a POST-911 WORLD and that we can't take certain things for granted, like we used to."

You got me on this issue. I actually agree with you on this issue. At least, the National Firearms Act of 1934 is still in place. Also, NRA does not to remove that Act. The reason  for that I agree with you is that my major is criminal justice and many of my professors at my old school were ex-cops ..... the bias....

Quote[/b] ]He should have pushed the terror button far more.

That is suicide!!!!

Edit: On the gun issue, I do think both sides are not really being "honest".

[billybob2002 0]

More fuel to the fire:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2....printer

Quote[/b] ]

Expert Cited by CBS Says He Didn't Authenticate Papers

By Michael Dobbs and Howard Kurtz

Washington Post Staff Writers

Tuesday, September 14, 2004; Page A08

The lead expert retained by CBS News to examine disputed memos from President Bush's former squadron commander in the National Guard said yesterday that he examined only the late officer's signature and made no attempt to authenticate the documents themselves.

"There's no way that I, as a document expert, can authenticate them," Marcel Matley said in a telephone interview from San Francisco. The main reason, he said, is that they are "copies" that are "far removed" from the originals.

Matley's comments came amid growing evidence challenging the authenticity of the documents aired Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes." The program was part of an investigation asserting that Bush benefited from political favoritism in getting out of commitments to the Texas Air National Guard. On last night's "CBS Evening News," anchor Dan Rather said again that the network "believes the documents are authentic."

A detailed comparison by The Washington Post of memos obtained by CBS News with authenticated documents on Bush's National Guard service reveals dozens of inconsistencies, ranging from conflicting military terminology to different word-processing techniques.

The analysis shows that half a dozen Killian memos released earlier by the military were written with a standard typewriter using different formatting techniques from those characteristic of computer-generated documents. CBS's Killian memos bear numerous signs that are more consistent with modern-day word-processing programs, particularly Microsoft Word.

"I am personally 100 percent sure that they are fake," said Joseph M. Newcomer, author of several books on Windows programming, who worked on electronic typesetting techniques in the early 1970s. Newcomer said he had produced virtually exact replicas of the CBS documents using Microsoft Word formatting and the Times New Roman font.

Newcomer drew an analogy with an art expert trying to determine whether a painting of unknown provenance was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci. "If I was looking for a Da Vinci, I would look for characteristic brush strokes," he said. "If I found something that was painted with a modern synthetic brush, I would know that I have a forgery."

Meanwhile, Laura Bush became the first person from the White House to say the documents are likely forgeries. "You know they are probably altered," she told Radio Iowa in Des Moines yesterday. "And they probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really."

Citing confidentiality issues, CBS News has declined to reveal the source of the disputed documents -- which have been in the network's possession for more than a month -- or to explain how they came to light after more than three decades. Yesterday, USA Today said that it had independently obtained copies of the documents "from a person with knowledge of Texas Air National Guard operations" who declined to be named "for fear of retaliation."

It was unclear whether the same person supplied the documents to both media outlets. USA Today said it had obtained its copies of the CBS documents Wednesday night "soon after" the "60 Minutes" broadcast, as well as another two purported Killian memos that had not been made public.

A detailed examination of the CBS documents beside authenticated Killian memos and other documents generated by Bush's 147th Fighter Interceptor Group suggests at least three areas of difference that are difficult to reconcile:

• Word-processing techniques. Of more than 100 records made available by the 147th Group and the Texas Air National Guard, none used the proportional spacing techniques characteristic of the CBS documents. Nor did they use a superscripted "th" in expressions such as "147th Group" and or "111th Fighter Intercept Squadron."

In a CBS News broadcast Friday night rebutting allegations that the documents had been forged, Rather displayed an authenticated Bush document from 1968 that included a small "th" next to the numbers "111" as proof that Guard typewriters were capable of producing superscripts. In fact, say Newcomer and other experts, the document aired by CBS News does not contain a superscript, because the top of the "th" character is at the same level as the rest of the type. Superscripts rise above the level of the type.

• Factual problems. A CBS document purportedly from Killian ordering Bush to report for his annual physical, dated May 4, 1972, gives Bush's address as "5000 Longmont #8, Houston." This address was used for many years by Bush's father, George H.W. Bush. National Guard documents suggest that the younger Bush stopped using that address in 1970 when he moved into an apartment, and did not use it again until late 1973 or 1974, when he moved to Cambridge, Mass., to attend Harvard Business School.

One CBS memo cites pressure allegedly being put on Killian by "Staudt," a reference to Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, one of Bush's early commanders. But the memo is dated Aug. 18, 1973, nearly a year and a half after Staudt retired from the Guard. Questioned about the discrepancy over the weekend, CBS officials said that Staudt was a "mythic figure" in the Guard who exercised influence from behind the scenes even after his retirement.

• Stylistic differences. To outsiders, how an officer wrote his name and rank or referred to his military unit may seem arcane and unimportant. Within the military, however, such details are regulated by rules and tradition, and can be of great significance. The CBS memos contain several stylistic examples at odds with standard Guard procedures, as reflected in authenticated documents.

In memos previously released by the Pentagon or the White House, Killian signed his rank "Lt Col" or "Lt Colonel, TexANG," in a single line after his name without periods. In the CBS memos, the "Lt Colonel" is on the next line, sometimes with a period but without the customary reference to TexANG, for Texas Air National Guard.

An ex-Guard commander, retired Col. Bobby W. Hodges, whom CBS originally cited as a key source in authenticating its documents, pointed to discrepancies in military abbreviations as evidence that the CBS memos are forgeries. The Guard, he said, never used the abbreviation "grp" for "group" or "OETR" for an officer evaluation review, as in the CBS documents. The correct terminology, he said, is "gp" and "OER."

In its broadcast last night, CBS News produced a new expert, Bill Glennon, an information technology consultant. He said that IBM electric typewriters in use in 1972 could produce superscripts and proportional spacing similar to those used in the disputed documents.

Any argument to the contrary is "an out-and-out lie," Glennon said in a telephone interview. But Glennon said he is not a document expert, could not vouch for the memos' authenticity and only examined them online because CBS did not give him copies when asked to visit the network's offices.

Thomas Phinney, program manager for fonts for the Adobe company in Seattle, which helped to develop the modern Times New Roman font, disputed Glennon's statement to CBS. He said "fairly extensive testing" had convinced him that the fonts and formatting used in the CBS documents could not have been produced by the most sophisticated IBM typewriters in use in 1972, including the Selectric and the Executive. He said the two systems used fonts of different widths.

On last night's "CBS Evening News," Rather said "60 Minutes" had done a "content analysis" of the memos and found, for example, that the date that Bush was suspended from flying -- Aug. 1, 1972 -- matched information in the documents. He also noted that USA Today had separately obtained another memo from 1972 in which Killian asked to be updated on Bush's flight certification status.

CBS executives have pointed to Matley as their lead expert on whether the memos are genuine, and included him in a "CBS Evening News" defense of the story Friday. Matley said he spent five to eight hours examining the memos. "I knew I could not prove them authentic just from my expertise," he said. "I can't say either way from my expertise, the narrow, narrow little field of my expertise."

In looking at the photocopies, he said, "I really felt we could not definitively say which font this is." But, he said, "I didn't see anything that would definitively tell me these are not authentic."

Asked about Matley's comments, CBS spokeswoman Sandy Genelius said: "In the end, the gist is that it's inconclusive. People are coming down on both sides, which is to be expected when you're dealing with copies of documents."

Questions about the CBS documents have grown to the point that they overshadow the allegations of favorable treatment toward Bush.

Prominent conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh are insisting the documents are forged. New York Times columnist William Safire said yesterday that CBS should agree to an independent investigation. Brent Bozell, president of the Media Research Center, called on the network to apologize, saying: "The CBS story is a hoax and a fraud, and a cheap and sloppy one at that. It boggles the mind that Dan Rather and CBS continue to defend it."

Staff reporters James V. Grimaldi and Mike Allen and researcher Alice Crites contributed to this report.

This might be a major "victory" for the Bush bloggers...

[Bernadotte 0]

According to this article, pollsters call home telephone lines but not cell phones.  Their polls, therefore, ignore a large and growing number of young cell phone users who don't have fixed lines. Given that Kerry does much better than Bush with young voters, the fixed line telephone polls may be under-representing Kerry's supporters.  Perhaps this means that the race is actually not a tie at all.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Now TERRORISTS will be able to buy ASSAULT RIFLES and KILL YOUR CHILDREN - AS IT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA clearly Bush does not understand that we live in a POST-911 WORLD and that we can't take certain things for granted, like we used to."

Who'd want to buy a full-auto M-16 in Yemen for $100 when they could get a semi-auto AR-15 in the US for $1000 ?