Us presidential election 2004

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is a complete a red herring the swift boat is a shallow draft boat that can, as it is designed be driven up on shore as Kerry did when he charge the VC's rockets to win his Silver Star.

Read what I wrote. PBRs are smaller boats than Swift Boats, and PBRs were the boats that were used up close to the border. Christ, I even gave you pictures comparing a Swift Boat to a PBR   .

Quote[/b] ]M21, not saying ur completely wrong but Kerry's duty did include supporting special operations forces so how would u know definately where he did and did not operate..SOG and other special op units made NUMEROUS incursions into Cambodia and Laos...and they didn't get there by walking. And that region was not patrolled soley by PBR's..where u got that I have no idea... he might have or might not have been there no one on this board knows for a fact so trying to argue about it is pointless

The region was patrolled by many types of craft. The area closest to the border (Within 55 miles or less) was PBR territory, with the exception of the LCU that was being used as a barrier to keep potentially naughty Americans out of Cambodia. Who supports this wacky idea of Swift Boats not being allowed close to the border? Tom Anderson, Commander of River Division 531 (He was in charge of the PBRs).

Also, Kerry contradicted himself when he stated in Tour Of Duty that he was not in Cambodia during Christmas. He states that he was in the town of Sa Dec, around 55 miles from the Cambodian border.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Bush stating categorically that Kerry is "more heroic" contridicts the Swift Boats. So who is lying?

No. SBVfT states that Kerry was a medal-grubbing little shit. Bush states that Kerry (While not denying that Kerry was a medal-grubbing glory hunter) was more heroic than a former-coke-using alchoholic national guardsman. Kerry being more heroic than Bush doesn't prove much, does it ?

I would say it shows that Bush being a "former-coke-using alchoholic national guardsman" is unfit to lead this country, if the same yard-stick teh Repubs used for Clinton is used ("didn't inhale").

It also shows Kerry has the fortitude to volunteer for frontline service, while Bush used his connections to sit around and have his teeth done.

So how exactly is Bush better able to lead this county than someone who has actually seen war?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I would say it shows that Bush being a "former-coke-using alchoholic national guardsman" is unfit to lead this country, if the same yard-stick teh Repubs used for Clinton is used ("didn't inhale").

So you're saying that Clinton was unfit to lead this country? Can I quote you on that?

Quote[/b] ]It also shows Kerry has the fortitude to volunteer for frontline service, while Bush used his connections to sit around and have his teeth done.

We already went over this. Kerry served his first tour on a large ship (I think it was a missile frigate) that never engaged in combat. He then volunteered for Swift Boats while they were still a fairly safe assignment.

[m21man 0]

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>For The Last Time</span>

This Is A Swift Boat:

This Is A PBR:

See the difference?

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

Note in your picture the Swiftboat is not 55 miles from the shore it is about 100 yards.

The plane fact is that the Patrol Area for An Thoi IS the border with Cambodia. If they were 55 miles away as you suggest they would not have been in their patrol area.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them.

Does anyone even know the origin of this quote? I do . Let me give you a little hint: The "village" was a provisional capital named Ban Tre, and virtually all of the damage was caused by NVA/VC firing captured 105mm howitzers. So, does anyone else know what this quote actually means (Sorry, it doesn't mean that Americans torched a village).

Quote[/b] ]We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very cooly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of  American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum

Excuse me? The US tried Calley during the war, something that is rarely done because it gives the enemy a huge amount of propaganda. And even very anti-war reporters like Peter Arnett said that they never saw American soldiers commit war crimes (Arnett said that he was impressed by the generosity of American soldiers, including one who leapt out during a firefight and pulled two little children to safety). Americans reacted strongly to My Lai, but had just ignored a massacre when the NVA entered Hue and murdered 3500 to 5000 innocent public workers and civilians.

Quote[/b] ]Note in your picture the Swiftboat is not 55 miles from the shore it is about 100 yards.

That's just a picture of a random Swift Boat. It doesn't have any relation to Kerry's boat. And no, I didn't say that Swift Boats stayed over 55 miles from the shore, I said that they were prohibited from coming closer than that to the Cambodian Border. I'll go back and check my posts in case they gave the wrong impression.

Quote[/b] ]The plane fact is that the Patrol Area for An Thoi IS the border with Cambodia. If they were 55 miles away as you suggest they would not have been in their patrol area.[/

So why did Kerry change his story in Tour Of Duty, hmm? Why did "Christmas In Cambodia" metamorphose into a mortar attack in a town 55 miles from the Cambodian border? And the green sector on that map is enormous. Kerry could easily have been in it and still been far from the border.

[Blunt 0]

Is anyone else concerned that our presidential races have been reduced to this?

Who cares where Kerry was in Vietnam? Or Bush for that matter. Who cares who said what 50 years ago.

The president is supposed to be chosen for his policies, not his past. In the last few weeks in watching the news, I haven't heard much mention of their policies, but rather what happened on this stupid freakin Swift boat. This politic gossip crap is really getting to me.

Canada, make room, I'm comin up.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

Canada, make room, I'm comin up.

LOL some of u guys just crack me up

[FSPilot 0]

So now that Bush has said that Kerry served honorably, and "more heroically" than he did, what now? Your all powerful leader has admited that Kerry served better than he did.

So wait. Now you're just taking his word for it? How did you go from calling him a liar to believing everything he said?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is anyone else concerned that our presidential races have been reduced to this?

Who cares where Kerry was in Vietnam?  Or Bush for that matter.  Who cares who said what 50 years ago.

The president is supposed to be chosen for his policies, not his past.  In the last few weeks in watching the news, I haven't heard much mention of their policies, but rather what happened on this stupid freakin Swift boat.  This politic gossip crap is really getting to me.

Canada, make room, I'm comin up.

Well, it gives us an excuse to jack up our post count     .

BTW - Sorry FS, but I couldn't resist stealing your sig .

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

If you new anything about this which you clearly do not. Then you would know that the forward base for the swift boats was a t a place called Ha Tien and that is right on the border of Cambodia and vietnam. Using your own links http://brownwater-navy.com/vietnam/Ha_Tien.htm

It says the base often came under attack

Quote[/b] ]Ha Tien was an advance Brown Water Navy Base at the end of the Vinh Te Canal on the west coast of Vietnam.

It is adjacent to Cambodia and about as West as you can get on the mainland of Vietnam.

Like the Seafloat area and the Vinh Te canal it is known for trouble.

They patroled the river at Ha Tien that was the border with Cambodia

Random pictures I can show you loads here is one note the shore is only 10 yards away.

The plane fact is Kerry is recorded as having a patrol area that was the Cambodian border. No if buts or maybes. Saying he did not is a lie.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you new anything about this which you clearly do not. Then you would know that the forward base for the swift boats was a t a place called Ha Tien and that is right on the border of Cambodia and vietnam. Using your own links http://brownwater-navy.com/vietnam/Ha_Tien.htm

It says the base often came under attack

No, at the time of Kerry's Christmas story, and according to the area commander of PBRs, Swift Boats were not operating in the area and would have been stopped had they been close to the border. Also, I see that you still haven't paid attention to Kerry's own claim that he spend Christmas in the town of Sa Dec, 55 miles from the Cambodian border. Walker, if you had any honor, courage or moral fibre you would answer the claim Kerry made in Tour Of Duty. And as a side note, you don't provide any evidence of when those pictures were taken. I just used that site to get a picture of a Swift Boat, irregardless of location or timing.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]So wait. Now you're just taking his word for it? How did you go from calling him a liar to believing everything he said?

I didn't take his word for it. The overwhelming evidence supports Kerry. Bush finally came out and admited it, and still the Bush Groupies hold on to their Swift Boat Hallucinations.

Quote[/b] ]Is anyone else concerned that our presidential races have been reduced to this?

Who cares where Kerry was in Vietnam? Or Bush for that matter. Who cares who said what 50 years ago.

The president is supposed to be chosen for his policies, not his past. In the last few weeks in watching the news, I haven't heard much mention of their policies, but rather what happened on this stupid freakin Swift boat. This politic gossip crap is really getting to me.

I'm gonna have to agree with this.

Given Bush's record the last 4 years. Kerry gets my vote.

Quote[/b] ]Canada, make room, I'm comin up.

Screw that. Europe or Japan for me...

Might have a new IP come Nov. 2.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Lies by Kerry:

I was in cambodia.

I also 'heard' about massacre.

Lies by Swiftpets:

Kerry did not deserve his medal.

He shot himself for it.

He has not released his records.

We know of Kerry's actions.

Swfitpets are independent organization.

Kerry: served in Vietnam, won medals

Bush: got into National Guard position in suspicious circumstances. release no proof to contradict AWOL records.

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

I posted this not 2 pages back and already you have forgoten please note the dates they are from the official record not the selective memories of someone who did not even serve with John F. Kerry.

Quote[/b] ]

Do a search for Kerry on this page, an offical US Navy swiftboats veterans site unlike the swift fantasists site. http://swiftboats.net/#pcf66

Under Kerry's Boat: PCF 66 In that table it says:-

Crew: John Forbes Kerry ,LTJG, OinC

Dates: 10/68-4/69

Base: An Thoi

Comments MA Boston

Here are the names of the associated patrol areas:

http://swiftboats.net/extras/patrol_areas.htm

Patrol Areas 9B thru 9H1 (An Thoi) are right on the Cambodian border.

Here's a map that shows the patrol areas just to make it clear: http://ideamouth.com/politics/PatrolAreas.jpeg

Here is a another picture of them there in the base at Ha Tien to help you.

Saying they were not there when the official record shows they were there is a lie.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

from FSPilot(haven't seen you in awhile ) and m21man's sig

Quote[/b] ]"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."

SEN. JOHN F. KERRY(D, MA),Jan.23. 2003

kinda funny that you guys are willing to post some quote that support your argument and criticize Kerry. How about recent comment about Iraq by Bush?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Saying they were not there when the official record shows they were there is a lie.

One, you have not provided the time that those Swift Boats were at Ha Tien. Hence, the picture is irrelevant. Two, the record places Kerry's boat in a very general area near the border. Being inside a large building where people in one area are doing drugs doesn't make you a drug user.

Quote[/b] ]kinda funny that you guys are willing to post some quote that support your argument and criticize Kerry. How about recent comment about Iraq by Bush?

I'm quoting it because Kerry said that he believed that Hussein was a threat, voted for the war, then voted against funding the war and proceeded to say that he'd opposed the war all along. Whether or not Hussein had WMDs, Kerry screwed up his voting order. He should have voted against going to war and for funding the troops, not the opposite .

[ralphwiggum 6]

I'm quoting it because Kerry said that he believed that Hussein was a threat, voted for the war, then voted against funding the war and proceeded to pretend that he'd opposed the war all along.

If Kerry had not voted for the war, do you think that you, along with other GOP members, would not hold it against Kerry?

Once it was revealed that war was going to be over the estimated cost, which also was conveniently not disclosed by Whitehouse in frank manner, it would be more logical to force executive branch to be honest by threatening to withhold more resources? would you give a blank check to someone who managed to show that he cannot comprehend the situation or lead it in favorable manner?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]If Kerry had not voted for the war, do you think that you, along with other GOP members, would not hold it against Kerry?

Once it was revealed that war was going to be over the estimated cost, which also was conveniently not disclosed by Whitehouse in frank manner, it would be more logical to force executive branch to be honest by threatening to withhold more resources? would you give a blank check to someone who managed to show that he cannot comprehend the situation or lead it in favorable manner?

Personally, I'd respect him more if he'd voted against the war and then voted for the bill. I wouldn't have agreed with it completely, but at least he would have supported giving the soldiers the funds they needed. Yes, I'm sure the war is overbudget, but that doesn't make it OK to try to stop a large amount of cash (Which, among many other things, was going to pay for body armor) as a political statement. Give the troops what they need, and go after the one who sent them there in the first place. It's not the common serviceman's/servicewoman's fault that there are US troops in Iraq and that the war is overbudget .

[ralphwiggum 6]

Personally, I'd respect him more if he'd voted against the war and then voted for the bill. I wouldn't have agreed with it completely, but at least he would have supported giving the soldiers the funds they needed. Yes, I'm sure the war is overbudget, but that doesn't make it OK to try to stop a large amount of cash (Which, among many other things, was going to pay for body armor) as a political statement.

If Kerry approved the budget and it helped to win the war by now, which would work for Bush's favor, would GOP give credit for that? nope.

Quote[/b] ]Give the troops what they need, and go after the one who sent them there in the first place. It's not the common serviceman's/servicewoman's fault that there are US troops in Iraq and that the war is overbudget .

yes and that man who was responsible for current situation is Bush, not Kerry. so why should Bush have 4 more years?

[walker 0]

I posted this not 2 pages back and already you have forgoten please note the dates they are from the official record not the selective memories of someone who did not even serve with John F. Kerry.

Quote[/b] ]

Do a search for Kerry on this page, an offical US Navy swiftboats veterans site unlike the swift fantasists site. http://swiftboats.net/#pcf66

Under Kerry's Boat: PCF 66 In that table it says:-

Crew: John Forbes Kerry ,LTJG, OinC

Dates: 10/68-4/69

Base: An Thoi

Comments MA Boston

Here are the names of the associated patrol areas:

http://swiftboats.net/extras/patrol_areas.htm

Patrol Areas 9B thru 9H1 (An Thoi) are right on the Cambodian border.

Here's a map that shows the patrol areas just to make it clear: http://ideamouth.com/politics/PatrolAreas.jpeg

Here is a another picture of them there in the base at Ha Tien to help you.

Hi m21man

As I said the plane fact is that Kerry's patrol Area was An Thoi the base for which was Ha Tien which is the border with Cambodia.

You said only PBRs patroled the border with cambodia I have shown that official Naval records prove this to be wrong. I have posted links to those records and photgraphs of the base. You fantasy from people who were never there that swiftboats never crossed the border is an obvious lie. For from October 1968 they patroled up the Giang Thanh River under the orders of Admiral Zumwalt.

Saying they were not there when the official record shows they were there is a lie.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Hi m21man

So you can understand here is what was going on at the time it was called Operation SEALORD

Quote[/b] ]Operation SEALORD was a military operation that took place during the Vietnam War. Concieved by Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr., it was a joint operation between U.S. and South Vietnamese forces. SEALORD launched on October 8, 1968, and was intended to disrupt North Vietnamese supply lines in and around the Mekong Delta. As a two-year operation, by 1971 all aspects of SEALORD had been turned over to the South Vietnam Navy.

As U.S. forces prepared the South Vietnamese military to assume complete responsibility for the war, they also worked to keep pressure on the enemy. In fact, from 1968 to 1971, the allies exploited the Communists' staggering battlefield losses during the Tet attacks by pushing the enemy's large main force units out to the border areas, extending the government's presence into Viet Cong strongholds, and consolidating control over population centers.

The Navy in particular spearheaded a drive in the Mekong Delta to isolate and destroy the weakened Communist forces. The SEALORDS (Southeast Asia Lake, Ocean, River, and Delta Strategy) program was a determined effort by U.S. Navy, South Vietnamese Navy, and allied ground forces to cut enemy supply lines from Cambodia and disrupt operations at his base areas deep in the delta. It was developed by Vice Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr., appointed COMNAVFORV in September 1968.

When Admiral Zumwalt launched SEALORDS in October 1968 with the blessing of the new COMUSMACV, General Creighton Abrams, allied naval forces in South Vietnam were at peak strength. The U.S. Navy's Coastal Surveillance Force operated 81 Swift boats, 24 Coast Guard WPBs, and 39 other vessels. The River Patrol Force deployed 258 patrol and minesweeping boats; the 3,700-man Riverine Assault Force counted 184 monitors, transports, and other armored craft; and Helicopter Attack Squadron Light (HAL) 3 flew 25 armed helicopters. This air component was soon augmented by the 15 fixed-wing OV-10 Bronco aircraft of Attack Squadron Light (VAL) 4, activated in April 1969. The lethal Bronco flown by the "Black Ponies" of VAL-4 carried 8 to 16 5- inch Zuni rockets, 19 2.75-inch rockets, 4 M-60 machine guns, and a 20-millimeter cannon. In addition, five SEAL platoons supported operations in the delta.

Complementing the American naval contingent were the Vietnamese Navy's 655 ships, assault craft, patrol boats, and other vessels. To focus the allied effort on the SEALORDS campaign, COMNAVFORV appointed his deputy the operational commander, or "First SEALORD," of the newly activated Task Force 194. Although continuing to function, the Game Warden, Market Time, and Riverine Assault Force operations were scaled down and their personnel and material resources increasingly devoted to SEALORDS. Task Force 115 PCFs mounted lightning raids into enemy- held coastal waterways and took over patrol responsibility for the delta's larger rivers. This freed the PBRs for operations along the previously uncontested smaller rivers and canals. These intrusions into former Viet Cong bastions were possible only with the on-call support of naval aircraft and the heavily armed riverine assault craft.

In the first phase of the SEALORDS campaign allied forces established patrol "barriers," often using electronic sensor devices, along the waterways paralleling the Cambodian border. In early November 1968, PBRs and riverine assault craft opened two canals between the Gulf of Siam at Rach Gia and the Bassac River at Long Xuyen. South Vietnamese paramilitary ground troops helped naval patrol units secure the transportation routes in this operational area, soon named Search Turn. Later in the month, Swift boats, PBRs, riverine assault craft, and Vietnamese naval vessels penetrated the Giang Thanh-Vinh Te canal system and established patrols along the waterway from Ha Tien on the gulf to Chau Doc on the upper Bassac. As a symbol of the Vietnamese contribution to the combined effort, the allied command changed the name of this operation from Foul Deck to Tran Hung Dao I. Then in December U.S. naval forces pushed up the Vam Co Dong and Vam Co Tay Rivers west of Saigon, against heavy enemy opposition, to cut infiltration routes from the "Parrot's Beak" area of Cambodia. The Giant Slingshot operation, so named for the configuration of the two rivers, severely hampered Communist resupply in the region near the capital and in the Plain of Reeds. Completing the first phase of the SEALORDS program, in January 1969 PBRs, assault support patrol boats (ASPB), and other river craft established patrol sectors along canals westward from the Vam Co Tay to the Mekong River in Operation Barrier Reef. Thus, by early 1969 a patrolled waterway interdiction barrier extended almost uninterrupted from Tay Ninh northwest of Saigon to the Gulf of Siam.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/SEALORDS

Saying they were not there on the Cambodian border when the official record shows they were there is a lie.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[FSPilot 0]

from FSPilot(haven't seen you in awhile ) and m21man's sig

Quote[/b] ]"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."

SEN. JOHN F. KERRY(D, MA),Jan.23. 2003

kinda funny that you guys are willing to post some quote that support your argument and criticize Kerry. How about recent comment about Iraq by Bush?

Nah, I'd rather use Kerry's words against him.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The head of the swift fantasists has been found out

Quote[/b] ]Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim

WASHINGTON - The chief critic of John Kerry (news - web sites)'s military record told President Nixon in 1971 that he had been in Cambodia in a swift boat during the Vietnam War — a claim at odds with his recent statements that he was not.

"I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," said John E. O'Neill in a conversation that was taped by the former president's secret recording system. The tape is stored at the National Archives in College Park, Md.

In an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon, but insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.

"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia," O'Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon.

Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Democratic presidential candidate, said the tape "is just the latest in a long line of lies and false statements from a group trying to smear John Kerry's military service. Again, they're being proven liars with their own words. It's time for President Bush (news - web sites) to stand up and specifically condemn this smear."

O'Neill served in Vietnam from 1969-70 and says in a recent book that he took command of Kerry's swift boat after the future Massachusetts senator returned home from the war.

O'Neill has emerged as a leading figure in the attacks on Kerry's war record. He is co-author of "Unfit for Command," which accuses Kerry of lying about his record, and is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has aired two television commercials harshly critical of Kerry.

In the book, O'Neill wrote that Kerry's accounts of having been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 "are complete lies."

"... Kerry was never ordered into Cambodia by anyone and would have been court-martialed had he gone there," he wrote. O'Neill wrote that the Navy positioned its own craft along the border area to make sure no American vessels strayed across the border from Vietnam.

In an interview Sunday on ABC's "This Week" O'Neill said: "Our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek," which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated. The campaign says Kerry does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date, although it's unclear if he crossed into Cambodia.

Referring to the tape of the Oval Office meeting with Nixon, O'Neill criticized Kerry for making claims, including in the Senate, that he was in Cambodia.

"I've never represented on the floor of the Senate, or told people 50 times like John Kerry did that I was in Cambodia. That never happened. And I don't think he was ever there either," O'Neill said.

The snippet of taped conversation surfaced after more than a week of controversy surrounding claims that Kerry lied about his actions in a war in which he won five military medals. The Democrat and his allies have vigorously attacked such claims as a smear, laboring to undermine the charges as well as cast doubt on the men who are making them.

For his part, Kerry accused the swift boat group of being a "front group" that was doing Bush's dirty work.

The Bush campaign denies any involvement with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....t_boats

Saying they were not there on the Cambodian border when the official record shows they were there is a lie.

m21man: If you have any honour, courage or moral fibre you must condemn this lie and apologise for your supporting it.

Kind Regards Walker

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]If Kerry had not voted for the war, do you think that you, along with other GOP members, would not hold it against Kerry?

Once it was revealed that war was going to be over the estimated cost, which also was conveniently not disclosed by Whitehouse in frank manner, it would be more logical to force executive branch to be honest by threatening to withhold more resources? would you give a blank check to someone who managed to show that he cannot comprehend the situation or lead it in favorable manner?

Personally, I'd respect him more if he'd voted against the war and then voted for the bill. I wouldn't have agreed with it completely, but at least he would have supported giving the soldiers the funds they needed. Yes, I'm sure the war is overbudget, but that doesn't make it OK to try to stop a large amount of cash (Which, among many other things, was going to pay for body armor) as a political statement. Give the troops what they need, and go after the one who sent them there in the first place. It's not the common serviceman's/servicewoman's fault that there are US troops in Iraq and that the war is overbudget .

Are you really naive enough to believe that had Kerry even succeeded in blocking the funding that the troops and the war effort would have suddenly gone unfunded?

Please tell me you are smarter than that.

The no vote would have been followed the next day by a yes vote with amendments made to the bill. That is how Congress works in case you never paid attention. Still, even if it had taken months, the troops would not have gone unfunded.

Gee, if that appropriations bill was so wonderful, where were the provisions for the body armor? Where were the provisions for up-armored humvees? I wonder, maybe Kerry thought expenditures on things like that mattered more than giving money to the INC and Ahmed Chalabi? Do you think maybe he was being patriotic by voting no on a bill that spent recklessly and with little regard for the safety of the troops?