Us presidential election 2004

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]If, according to you, Kerry is an idiot for authorising war then what does that make the guy who requested the authorisation?

It should be.....I guess Kerry is an idiot, too...

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]hey billybob is it possible for you to state an opinion about anything...as far as I've noticed u've just spammed this board with news links and clippings from papers...do you have ANYTHING of an OPINION of the topic at hand ...we all know how to search for news on the net..we don't links especially to a bunch of pointless negative adds and on that note....a LINK LOL

How is it negative that Kerry supported Bush in the invasion of Iraq to get rid of Saddam? He wanted more diplomacy but, in the end, he agreed with Bush to invade Iraq (supported). I get blasted for looking for some answers....

no u got blasted because no one knows ur OPINION...ur just spamming it's ok to support ur opinion with links but just posting news links gets kinda old bro....

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]If, according to you, Kerry is an idiot for authorising war then what does that make the guy who requested the authorisation?

It should be.....I guess Kerry is an idiot, too...

Even if, he's clearly out classed by the bigger/better idiot. No, Kerry doesn't seem like an idiot though, maybe not great but not an idiot.

[turms 0]

So, who here is going to vote for Bush and why?

Sorry if this has been asked before.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]no u got blasted because no one knows ur OPINION...ur just spamming it's ok to support ur opinion with links but just posting news links gets kinda old bro....

I posted why I supported Bush before you came here and you must look for it in this thread. I'm about 65% in favor of Bush.

[walker 0]

Hi seafire6

Welcome to the most disgusting thread in OFP.

Getting staight to your points.

Ultimately, we could all research info pro and con either candidate. I feel that this year as in most years we Americans don't have a great choice in our political process. but be that as it may we need to choose based on whom we individually feel will do us the best job possible in these very difficult times.

Me I am a practical anarchist I always think that is the case. The nature of democracy is to choose the best of two evils. On the one occasion you think you have the perfect candidate (probably you) everyone else will will think it is not the perfect candidate; democracy is a best fit model while reality is that the world is anarchic; it is just most human beings are too bedazled by the model to see the reality. So us anarchists have to accept there are enough dumb democracy types and enough power hungry types to keep fooling them that we have to deal with it.

I can find a lot of fault with the policies of Bush,

Policies  

So he has stuffed the economy and left the USA with a defecit tax bill that will cost the American tax payer thousands of dollars a year for a couple of decades, so he has so devalued the dollar that in most other countries it is used as toilet paper, so he has left the US with record unemeployment, so he has left the US with a Medicare disaster, so he has cut and cut the US middle classes wages, so he has divided the nation as never before etc. etc.

So What!

What is important is defense

but I just can't trust Kerry to do the right,  but perhaps politically unpopular thing in the event of a crisis. I think he is more apt to make a politcally expedient choice rather than the hard choice. That is just my opinion and will cast my vote with Bush.

Yet this is where George Bush Jnr. has singularly and demonstrably failed the American people.

On 9/11 a Chrisis situation

He knows America is under attack, what does George Bush Jnr. do?

1) For 7 minutes he reads about a goat.

2) For 20 minutes he has a photo shoot in the school.

3) Right up to the pentagon being hit, in the Capitol 34 minutes after he has been told America is under attack he does not issue a single order for the nations defense.

5) As commander in chief he is trained and expected to issue orders for the nations defense and get the Nuclear Football to a safe location away from his known intinary in 10 minutes from being told the USA is under attack. He failed.

These are undeniable facts. There on Video and in the public record.

George Bush Jnr. is more apt to make a politcally expedient choice rather than the hard choice

When it comes to hunting down the perpertrators of 9/11 does he enact the policies necasarry? No. He cannot be bothered to make the 'hard choice' George Bush Jnr. says he "can't be bothered swating flies" instead 'he is more apt to make a politcally expedient choice rather than the hard choice'. It is there on record he made up a fantasy enemy with fantasy WMD and fantasy intercontinental rockets, and attacks it because he knows it dont have an army worth a damn and he can make himself out to be the warrior by proxy he never was in reality because he was too busy being a vietnam war dodger.

Kerry on the other hand is a genuine decorated war hero with a combat proved record of making hard decisions; to whit he voluteered for millitary service on the the front line in vietnam and for making the right decisions under fire in a chrisis to such an extent that he recieved the Broze and Silver stars for making those hard chrisis decisions.

When you come in to this cess pit of a thread it makes sense to get your facts straight before you go making wild assertions.

Kind regards Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

George Bush Jnr's Cuts to veterans benefits are starting to bite.

Quote[/b] ]Since his stroke, World War II veteran John Savage's real fight is for his health. And the helping hand he needs now is not coming from the government he served in uniform.

Savage went to war at 17, a redheaded Navy radio operator. Now 77, he's frail and about to lose his health care coverage.

His fallback, the Veterans Administration, recently toughened its enrollment requirements and rejected his application.

"I always thought this was my ace in the hole as far as the V.A., and now, looks like they don't want me," Savage says.

The V.A., long in crisis, remains overburdened – too few resources trying to service too many vets. Just getting an initial disability exam typically takes five months.

Like Savage, millions of vets feel betrayed

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/12/eveningnews/main635591.shtml

TBA's lack of concern for veterans is what one would expect from a bunch of NeoConMen chicken hawks who spent their lives dodging service to the nation.

Angry Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]TBA's lack of concern for veterans is what one would expect from a bunch of NeoConMen chicken hawks who spent their lives dodging service to the nation.

Angry Walker

Taken from your article:

Quote[/b] ]

President Bush opposes that mandatory funding. But during his term, funding for V.A. health care has jumped 40 percent.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=144

Quote[/b] ]

Summary

In the Feb. 15 Democratic debate, Kerry suggested that Bush was being unpatriotic: “He’s cut the VA (Veterans Administration) budget and not kept faith with veterans across this country. And one of the first definitions of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wore the uniform of our country.â€

It is true that Bush is not seeking as big an increase for next year as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs wanted. It is also true that the administration has tried to slow the growth of spending for veterans by not giving new benefits to some middle-income vets.

Yet even so, funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

Quote[/b] ]In Bush’s first three years funding for the Veterans Administration increased 27%. And if Bush's 2005 budget is approved, funding for his full four-year term will amount to an increase of 37.6%.

In the eight years of the Clinton administration the increase was 31.7%

Those figures include mandatory spending for such things as payments to veterans for service-connected disabilities, over which Congress and presidents have little control. But Bush has increased the discretionary portion of veterans funding even more than the mandatory portion has increased. Discretionary funding under Bush is up 30.2%.

Quote[/b] ]

While it's false to say the veterans budget has been cut, and false to say that any veteran getting benefits has been cut off, it is true that funding is not growing as rapidly as demand for benefits, or as rapidly as veterans groups would like.

Quote[/b] ]Meanwhile the VA  continues to add hundreds of thousands of disabled and lower-income veterans to those already receiving benefits, and has kept paying benefits to all veterans who were already receiving them.

The middle-income veterans who currently aren't being allowed to sign up are those generally with incomes above 80% of the mid-point for their locality. The  means test cut-off for benefits ranges up to $40,000 a year in many cities. And any veteran with income less than  $25,162 still qualifies no matter where they live. Those figures are for single veterans. The income cut-off is higher for those with a spouse or children.

Quote[/b] ]Veterans groups have called for "mandatory funding" of medical benefits, which would automatically appropriate whatever funds are required to meet demand. Kerry has endorsed mandatory funding, which would allow middle-income veterans with no service-connected disability to resume signing up.

Quote[/b] ]

All this means Bush can fairly be accused of trying to hold down the rapid growth in spending for veterans benefits -- particularly those sought by middle-income vets with no service-connected disability. But saying he cut the budget is contrary to fact.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Kerry on the other hand is a genuine decorated war hero with a combat proved record of making hard decisions; to whit he voluteered for millitary service on the the front line in vietnam and for making the right decisions under fire in a chrisis to such an extent that he recieved the Broze and Silver stars for making those hard chrisis decisions.

He would stayed home if his deferment did not get denied after he graduated from Yale.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Quote[/b] ]Kerry initially hoped to continue his service at a relatively safe distance from most fighting, securing an assignment as "swift boat" skipper.

Quote[/b] ]

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

[kerosene 0]

i dont think its particularly fair to criticize Kerrys reasons for signing up, it dosent alter the fact that he did.

It still beats the hell out of getting your dad to put you in the air national guard and then deiciding even thats too much too bother with, probably cause it cut into all his drinking and doing blow time.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]i dont think its particularly fair to criticize Kerrys reasons for signing up, it dosent alter the fact that he did.

It still beats the hell out of getting your dad to put you in the air national guard and then deiciding even thats too much too bother with, probably cause it cut into all his drinking and doing blow time.

I'm just beating up Walker's words. He (walker) said that Kerry volunteered for millitary service on the the front line in vietnam but, in reality, Kerry thought that being on a "swift boat" would avoid deadly fights.

[billybob2002 0]

Bush: Kerry should be proud of his "noble service".

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....3153641

Quote[/b] ]

Bush says he's ready to take "rap" over Iraq

2 hours, 17 minutes ago  Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - President George W. Bush (news - web sites) said he was ready to take "the rap" for the Iraq (news - web sites) war if the US people decided in November to elect his Democratic rival John Kerry (news - web sites), whose Vietnam war record, he said, was something to be proud of.

In an interview late Thursday with CNN television, Bush said, however, that he believed the decision to invade Iraq was the right one and that he would win the election battle against Kerry, in which Iraq is a key issue.

Bush said the United States has "an obligation to lead" in world security.

Interviewer Larry King told how after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba in 1961, President John F. Kennedy "took the rap".

Bush interrupted to state: "I'm taking the rap, too, of course."

Quote[/b] ]Bush said he had not seen the adverts which have been paid for by a Texas businessman close to the Republican party. But the president called for a clampdown on the proliferation of campaign adverts that circumvent political financing laws that have targeted both him and Kerry.

Quote[/b] ]Pressed by Republican Senator and Vietnam veteran John McCain and others to condemn the advert, Bush said Kerry should be proud of his "noble service".

"Senator Kerry is justifiably proud of his record in Vietnam and he should be."

Is that Bush showing respect to Kerry!?!? Very nice, indeed.

[Bernadotte 0]

...but, in reality, Kerry thought that being on a "swift boat" would avoid deadly fights.

Whose reality?  Yours?

Care to post a reference for your take on Kerry's true thoughts?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Whose reality?  Yours?

Care to post a reference for your take on Kerry's true thoughts?

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Quote[/b] ]  

Kerry initially hoped to continue his service at a relatively safe distance from most fighting, securing an assignment as "swift boat" skipper.

 

Quote[/b] ]  

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

[Bernadotte 0]

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

Quote[/b] ]  

Kerry initially hoped to continue his service at a relatively safe distance from most fighting, securing an assignment as "swift boat" skipper.

 

Quote[/b] ]  

"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."

Not wanting to get involved with the war is not necessarily the same thing as seeking a safe posting.  In fact he could have done many other things to guarantee his safety, including what Bush did, had that been Kerry's motive.  But I'll leave the idle speculation to you.

[billybob2002 0]

Somebody would of have posted this if it was a good indictor that Kerry was going to win....  

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3....7

Quote[/b] ]  

Bush's job-approval rating climbs back above 50%

Fri Aug 13, 7:11 AM ET  Add Top Stories - USATODAY.com to My Yahoo!

By Judy Keen, USA TODAY

President Bush (news - web sites)'s job-approval rating, a key indicator of an incumbent's chance of being re-elected, has turned upward, the Gallup Poll finds.

The share of Americans who say they approve of the job Bush is doing inched over the 50% mark to 51%. No president who was at or above 50% at this point in an election year has lost.

Matthew Dowd, Bush's campaign strategist, said, "It looks like the American public is not near as pessimistic as Sen. Kerry is."

Bush's job-approval rating hit its low point, 46%, in May.

The poll finds the presidential race essentially tied: Bush leads Kerry 48%-46% among likely voters; independent Ralph Nader (news - web sites) has 3%. The difference between Bush and Kerry is within the poll's error margin of +/{ndash}4 percentage points.

"We've said all along it's going to be a tight race," said Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton.

The presidential race is as intense and combative now as it usually is in October of election years.

On Thursday, Bush charged his rival with turning a contentious environmental issue here into "a political poker chip."

In his 2000 campaign, Bush said "science, not politics," would determine whether he designated Nevada's Yucca Mountain as a depository for nuclear waste. As president, Bush approved the designation, recommended by the Energy Department, and Nevada opponents cried foul.

Kerry, in Nevada on Tuesday, said Bush broke his 2000 campaign promise. Kerry has voted for legislation that included provisions to allow nuclear dumps at Yucca, but in direct votes on whether to ship waste there, he voted no.

"My opponent's trying to turn Yucca Mountain into a political poker chip," Bush said. "He says he's strongly against Yucca here in Nevada, but he voted for it several times, and so did his running mate. ... If they're going to change, one day they may change again. I think you need straight talk."

Bush spoke at a training facility of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, one of the few unions to support his tax cuts and other policies.

Later, in an interview on CNN's Larry King Live in Los Angeles, Bush declined to condemn a TV ad from at group of Vietnam War veterans questioning whether Kerry earned his Purple Hearts and other awards. "I haven't seen the ad, but what I do condemn is these unregulated, soft-money expenditures by very wealthy people. And they've said some bad things about me," he said. "I guess they're saying bad things about him."

Bush defended his decision to stay in a Florida classroom for several minutes on Sept. 11, 2001, after an aide told him about the terrorist attacks. Last week, Kerry said he would have told the students he needed to leave.

"I was collecting my thoughts," Bush said. "I made the decision there that we would let this part of the program finish, and then I would calmly stand up and thank the teacher and thank the children and go take care of business."

Bush was in Los Angeles for a party fundraiser. He shared a stage with California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites), who joked that he is organizing bodybuilders and "girly men" for Bush.

In an interview in the Los Angeles Times, Schwarzenegger said he's rethinking his insistence that he wouldn't campaign for Bush outside the state. "If there's a place, one place where they want to pop me in, this makes sense for me," Schwarzenegger said.

The Bushes had a private visit with former first lady Nancy Reagan at her home in Bel Air, Calif.  

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not wanting to get involved with the war is not necessarily the same thing as seeking a safe posting. In fact he could have done many other things to guarantee his safety, including what Bush did, had that been Kerry's motive. But I'll leave the idle speculation to you.

He thought he was going to do coastal partols only and not do heavy fighting. However, the role of the "swift boats" changed. It would of have been the same thing if Bush was called up from the texas air national guard.

[Bernadotte 0]

He thought he was going to do coastal partols only and not do heavy fighting. However, the role of the "swift boats" changed. It would of have been the same thing if Bush was called up from the texas air national guard.

Volunteering for coastal patrol in Vietnam is NOT the same as joining and then skipping out of the Texas air national guard.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Volunteering for coastal patrol in Vietnam is NOT the same as joining and then skipping out of the Texas air national guard.

He could of been called up right after getting his wings.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]Volunteering for coastal patrol in Vietnam is NOT the same as joining and then skipping out of the Texas air national guard.

He could of been called up right after getting his wings.

sorry to rain on your parade but an air guard unit getting deployed to vietnam ..especially an F-102 unit was about nil....He knew what he was doing

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]sorry to rain on your parade but an air guard unit getting deployed to vietnam ..especially an F-102 unit was about nil....He knew what he was doing

http://www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/sidebar600.asp

Quote[/b] ]The Air National Guard in Vietnam

(June 2000) - Air National Guard units began flying supply missions to Vietnam in 1965, and the Air Guard was mobilized twice during the Vietnam War.

Eleven squadrons were called up in January 1968 in response to the seizing of the U.S. Navy ship Pueblo by North Korea, and two tactical fighter squadrons were, the 166th (Ohio) and the 127th (Kansas) were sent to South Korea.

In May 1968 one aeromedical airservice group and two tactical fighter groups were federalized.

Four tactical fighter squadrons--the 120th (Colorado), 174th (Iowa), 188th (New Mexico), and 136th (New York)--deployed to Vietnam. And although not a Guard unit, the Guard can claim credit for a fifth squadron, the 3755th: 85 percent of this tactical fighter squadron's personnel were Air Guard volunteers from New Jersey and the District of Columbia.

The Air Force commander in Vietnam, testifying before a Senate committee, summed up the combat record of these five squadrons:

"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five best F-100 squadrons in the field. The aircrews were a little older, but they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't have."

In addition, a large number of combat-veteran active Air Force pilots joined the Air National Guard after Vietnam. This group includes Shepperd and Maj. Gen. E. Gordon Stump, Michigan adjutant general and NGAUS president.

[DB-ERAUPilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]sorry to rain on your parade but an air guard unit getting deployed to vietnam ..especially an F-102 unit was about nil....He knew what he was doing

http://www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/sidebar600.asp

Quote[/b] ]The Air National Guard in Vietnam

(June 2000) - Air National Guard units began flying supply missions to Vietnam in 1965, and the Air Guard was mobilized twice during the Vietnam War.

Eleven squadrons were called up in January 1968 in response to the seizing of the U.S. Navy ship Pueblo by North Korea, and two tactical fighter squadrons were, the 166th (Ohio) and the 127th (Kansas) were sent to South Korea.

In May 1968 one aeromedical airservice group and two tactical fighter groups were federalized.

Four tactical fighter squadrons--the 120th (Colorado), 174th (Iowa), 188th (New Mexico), and 136th (New York)--deployed to Vietnam. And although not a Guard unit, the Guard can claim credit for a fifth squadron, the 3755th: 85 percent of this tactical fighter squadron's personnel were Air Guard volunteers from New Jersey and the District of Columbia.

The Air Force commander in Vietnam, testifying before a Senate committee, summed up the combat record of these five squadrons:

"I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five best F-100 squadrons in the field. The aircrews were a little older, but they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't have."

In addition, a large number of combat-veteran active Air Force pilots joined the Air National Guard after Vietnam. This group includes Shepperd and Maj. Gen. E. Gordon Stump, Michigan adjutant general and NGAUS president.

LOL...the spammer strikes again...you should start reading stuff before you spam the links...you would notice those are F-100 units and the F-100 is a completely different aircraft from an F-102 dude...the F-102 was declared unsuitable to the region very early on in the conflict and if I recall NO F-102 units were deployed to Vietnam after the first couple of years. Just steer clear of this topic ...and find some other pointless excuse for you to re elect that idiot. nuff said

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Air National Guard in Vietnam

...

Eleven squadrons were called up in January 1968 in response to the seizing of the U.S. Navy ship Pueblo by North Korea...

Yeah... They obviously didn't want to endanger any swift boat companies.  

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]LOL...the spammer strikes again...you should start reading stuff before you spam the links...you would notice those are F-100 units and the F-100 is a completely different aircraft from an F-102 dude...the F-102 was declared unsuitable to the region very early on in the conflict and if I recall NO F-102 units were deployed to Vietnam after the first couple of years. Just steer clear of this topic ...and find some other pointless excuse for you to re elect that idiot. nuff said

Let me help you....

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml

Quote[/b] ]

It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam at the very time Bush enlisted. In fact, F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

Quote[/b] ]

F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of fighter combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.

Quote[/b] ]A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents.

Quote[/b] ]

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.

Quote[/b] ]The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots were serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft that claimed the lives of many of its pilots even on routine missions. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.

'nuff said

[walker 0]

Hi billybob2002

Simple fact

George Bush Jnr. is a bonafide Vietnam War Doger.

Simple fact

John F. Kerry is a bonafide decorated Vietnam War Hero.

Kind Regards Walker