Moscow attack kills 40

[bucket man 2]

Chechens seem to have powerfull supporters. I read that russians found uniforms that hides men wearing them from thermal cams (spelling?). If these uniforms exist they brobably got them from the same place iraqis got their modern night vision goggles at the start of the war. Goggles originated from USA but somehow found their way to Syria which sold them to Iraq.

Also heard rumors that chechens had something to do with that submarine that sunk. Kursk I think was its name. Ofcourse if that was the case bublic would never know about it and it brobably was just an accident. Russians have thier own Vietnam in chechenia. Foreign fighters are flowing in to support chechens and they can operate relatively easy from neighboring countries. Terrain favours guerilla style tactics and makes it extremely hard to destroy bases and camps that chechens use. Lets see how long Russia can withstand growing casualties. Solution to this would be independent chechenia but that cant be done because of various reasons. Another one would be bombing chechenia in to a wasteland.

[GoOB 0]

Another one would be bombing chechenia in to a wasteland.

Wich is already more or less done. Many major cities are virtually piles of rubble and dust. Due to bombings, artillery fire et cetera.

[bucket man 2]

Maby some kinda Agent Orange project to wipe out forests.

Americans did it maybe its russians turn to repeat same mistakes.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]That may have been the case in the first Chechen war ,but i was talking about the siege of grozny in the second Chechnya war.

The second assault on city in 1999 was big success for Russian troops. They lost single tank, and manage to bring escaping from the city Chechens to the mine field, where they lost more then an 800 mans in single hour.

Quote[/b] ]However when it comes to guerilla opperations like rpg or "bomb on road" attacks i doubt that they loose much men.

true, But "bomb on road" one time a week didn’t hurt Russians that much either.

Quote[/b] ]As far as i've seen it ,the current situation is that the chechens still control an amount of x territory in the Chechnyan highlands be it conceiled from where they have theire base of opperation's from wich they wage a war in attrition

and they will control it as long, as Russian omon and sobor troops have 8 or 12 times they regular monthly salary just for being in Chechnya. For them, to kill remaining Chechens and their leaders will mean to kill “chicken which bring you golden eggsâ€.

They kill Khattab (Arab leader) without any problem.

They kill Dudaev (guided rocket was somehow configured on wave in his cell phone) but this is a different. Russian didn’t take foreigners as prisoner, and Arabs mercenary know it. In case of Basaev, he is Chechen, and I think his time didn’t come yet. In military mean, he can be dead in 2 hours, but… political hour not here yet.

There was a strange story right before the first assault on Groznyy. Ex major of that city, Gantimirov was always on Russian side. After Dudaev come to power, Gantimirov quickly recruit his own small army, there was a couple thousand mans, tanks and bmp's with mercenary crew.

He quickly takes control over 40% of Chechnya territory.

2 mounts before actual Russian assault, he give order to his mans take over Groznyy.

They quickly size north part of the city and half of the middle town. Dudaev troops didn’t expect it. They start withdrew they troops south.

But… after Gantimirov take over main government buildings, he has order to withdrew his troops from the city. He was shocked, because city fall in his hand already, his mans also don’t understand what’s going on… they move back to their previous position 60 km from Groznyy. Dudaev troops back to empty Capital and start building defense position. After 2 mounts Russian start their own assault, and we know what happen next…

Just one more “black hole†in a Chechen war history.

About independence… well. After Dudaev come to power, over 300000 peoples left Chechnya and move to Russia. Chechnya whole population was just around million citizens. Over 200000 more move to Ingushetia (part of Russia federation) after 1999. And 300000-400000 will move to Russia if Chechnya will separate from Russia. Question is… why Russia has to deal with 700000 refuges, (70% of population) if only 30% want to be independent?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]About independence? well. After Dudaev come to power, over 300000 peoples left Chechnya and move to Russia. Chechnya whole population was just around million citizens. Over 200000 more move to Ingushetia (part of Russia federation) after 1999. And 300000-400000 will move to Russia if Chechnya will separate from Russia. Question is? why Russia has to deal with 700000 refuges, (70% of population) if only 30% want to be independent?

From the 200.000 chechen who moved to ingushetia after 1999 about 90% were displaced by the russian millitary as a result of war ,and not due to discontent with the Seperatists Chechen goverment.From those 200.000 people only 10.000 people claimed they left Chechnia because of muslim millitants ,and it has shown that these 10.000 were mostly ethnic russians.In addition ,Applications based on allegations of mistreatment by federal forces were rejected on account of the antiterrorist campaign.From those 200.000 people only those 10.000 people have taken an application to having the forced migrant status as the federal authorities restricted the forced migrant status to those displaced who "did not intend to return".

source:

http://www.db.idpproject.org/Sites....047E738

So most of these 200.000 were forced out by te Russian millitary and would return if possible.

In addition ,i would like to see youre sources for the claim that 300.000 people left Thechnya after Dudayev came to power ,in addition to the ethnic breakdown of those migrants.

In any case ,youre claim that an additional 300.000 to 400.000 people would migrate if chechnia would become a sepertatist state (again!) can be counter argumented by the fact those who wouldn't have left in the few years that Chechnia was actually a seperatists state wouldn't leave now when the Chechen seperatists goverment would return.

So if youre going to claim such number's ,back it up with sources please.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]In addition ,i would like to see youre sources for the claim that 300.000 people left Thechnya after Dudayev came to power ,in addition to the ethnic breakdown of those migrants.

Really strange to hear your interest about "ethnic breakdown of those migrants".  When Milosevic in Serbia start to move Albanians out from his country because they was “ethnically" not Serbs, he end up in European Court.

Quote[/b] ]From the 200.000 chechen who moved to ingushetia after 1999 about 90% were displaced by the russian millitary as a result of war ,and not due to discontent with the Seperatists Chechen goverment

Isn’t it strange? They run from Russian invasion to hide under Russian troop’s protection in other part of Russia, Ingushetia?

the same source you provide obove. Only different timeline:

1991 and up

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Really strange to hear your interest about "ethnic breakdown of those migrants".  When Milosevic in Serbia start to move Albanians out from his country because they was ?ethnically" not Serbs, he end up in European Court.

This is a very different situation from what you describe.First of all from what you first stated i had the impression that you wanted to say that those 300.000 that you claim to have immigrated directly and after Doedayev came to power left voluntarely since they were ethnic chetchyans who left because they disagreed with the seperate goverment.In Serbia we had ethnic Albanian's forced to flee for the Serbian army ,you paint a picture Of Ethnic chetchyens leaving chethya (where Ethnic chechyan's live) voluntarely ,this because you want to porve a poin that the majority of Ethnic Chechyans are opposed to a seperatist Chechian state.

In this sense ,if you can prove that 300.000 people left chechya when the chechyan seperatists goverment under Dudayev came to power because of difference's with that goverment it would be interresting to mention if their are Ethnic russians among those people ,as clearly it's easy to understand why ethnic Russian's would oppose a sepperate Chechyan goverment if they happened to live in that territory claimed and controlled by that sepperatist goverment.

Besides ,i already counter argumented the 200.000 figure from the 2nd Chechen war as mainly etchnic Chechens displaced by the russian troops rather than left by free will and eventually planning to return to the region ,in fact only a minority of those 200.000 refugee's claim to have left voluntarily becuase of difference's with the Seperatist Chechen goverment and even this minority consisted mainly Ethnic Russian's ,and a few anti-whahabist elements.

Take tibet for ex. ,you to mention a point on ethnic russians that may have lived and left Chechnya.These days the capital of tibet Lhasa has an actual Chinese majority.Tibet was prior to chinese occupancy a country with a rather low population.I wouldn't be surprized if the chinese these days are the majority in the whole of tibet.Should this Demographic evolution undermine the casius belli for a seperatist Tibet should it try to arise?

I very much doubt that the whole system that makes the Chechen society is compatible with the russian way of goverment.Chechen society has always wanted to progress to a sort of highly decentralized democracy ,there socio-political structure of "teip's" ,clan and tribe like group's that live and work toghether trough concensus with eachother is very different from traditional Russian politics.In fact chechens have  trough history taken every little opportunity to brake away from russia when the were occupyd by it often with severe reprecussion's for the chechen poppulation. (Stalin?)

In this sense i doubt that the majority of chechens wouldn't prefer an stable independantly recognized chechnya.

Oh you edited youre post and somehow it contradict's my reply now. Ok to edit mine then:

Quote[/b] ]the same source you provide obove. Only different timeline:

Background to the conflict: Chechnya recent history (1922-1998)

And doesn't it widly breaks down youre argument, While it's indeed true that about 400.000 Chechens fled chechnia in the first Chechen war ,it's says that these people were forced to flee by Russian troops due to bombardment's and displacement.The amount that actually fled due to the Decleration of independance was 100.000 ethnic russians!Let me quote the source:

Quote[/b] ]As a result of the declaration of independence, some 100,000 Russians left Chechnya

Quote[/b] ]December 1994-August 1996: Russian troops undertake a military intervention in the republic; up to 400,000 people flee to other areas of Chechnya and the Russian Federation

Quote[/b] ]"Chechnya experienced 21 months of warfare between December 1994, when some 40,000 Russian troops entered the rebellious republic, and August 1996 when a cease-fire took hold. An estimated 50,000 people, mostly civilians, were killed. Indiscriminate bombing and artillery attacks destroyed large areas of the Chechen capital Grozny in the first two months of the war, forcing up to 400,000 people to flee to other areas of Chechnya and to the frontier regions of Ingushetia, Daghestan, North Ossetia, and southern Russia. As the war continued into the surrounding countryside and southern mountain areas, entire villages were destroyed, resulting in further displacement.

It's perfectly conceivable that would the first and 2nd Chechyan war had never happened then only 100.000 ethni russian's would have left Chechnya because of disagreements with the goverment.The other 600.000 left because theyre homes were flattened and they had to flee for a rampaging army.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]It's perfectly conceivable that would the first and 2nd Chechyan war had never happened then only 100.000 ethni russian's would have left Chechnya because of disagreements with the goverment.

You either don’t understand it, or just don’t want to understand.  When thousands of peoples just run away, leaving they houses, apartments, cars, even closes… it’s NOT because they just disagree with government, it because they try to save their live. How many thousand not Muslim was killer in early 90, do you know it?

If 400000 left just because of bombardment, why they never back after Chechens have independent in 1996?  Why Moscow Chechen communities have more Chechen then in Chechnya capital itself?  Why 50% of the Chechen, including every single one from second largest Chechen city Gudermes, who fight against Russian in first war, join Russian in second?  Maybe they realize that they republic soon become another Taliban f_head heaven?  

Why in a last 2 years, from 10 killed guerrillas, 5 not Chechen origin at all?

Do you ever read 2 side of the story? Or always rely on one?  Nothing personal, but I think you don’t want to hear truth. I don’t know the reason why.

Quote[/b] ]The other 600.000 left because theyre homes were flattened and they had to flee for a rampaging army.

There we go again.   If Mexican army somehow invade California, and start killing civilians and bombard everything around, and peoples will run away from “rampaging Mexican armyâ€, Last place they want to run will be the Mexico itself.

Why it’s so hard to understand. It just a simple logic.

PS

Don’t want to make this treat to boring for other readers. Sorry. I will not reply in this topic anymore. I hope you understand me correctly.

[turms 0]

Well it is quite hard to get actual information from chechenia, becouse of the monopoly of information conducted by Russia.

I really wouldnt say that the refugees left volunteraly. Found a couple of articles from fas.org

First Chechnya War - 1994-1996

Second Chechnya War - 1999-

Oh, by the way, I think its too early to say that Chechens blew up the bomb, it could be possible though.

EDIT: damn tags...

[toadeater 0]

Quote[/b] ]Really strange to hear your interest about "ethnic breakdown of those migrants".  When Milosevic in Serbia start to move Albanians out from his country because they was ?ethnically" not Serbs, he end up in European Court.

This is a very different situation from what you describe.

How is it different? Both Chechens and KLA are Muslims, both had the help of western powers and Islamic groups to rebel against their "evil" Orthodox Christian "oppressors", and most importantly, both were militants involved in organized crime who did not represent the majority of their own people. Both the KLA and the Chechens have a long history of crime against their own people they were supposedly fighting to free.

Half of this game is about America and Europe seizing formerly Soviet-held territory. That's business as usual I suppose, the only thing is, they did it by allying with the Al Qaeda types, and now we had 9/11 because of it. Now we're in Iraq cleaning up the mess years of this policy created.

Chechens, Albanians, Colombians, Mexicans, Palestinians, Koreans, Indonesians, Africans, etc, they're all pawns in a bigger game. Those "freedom fighters" you see only need to change uniforms in order to be classified as "terrorists".

[toadeater 0]

Quote[/b] ]The point that i was trying to make is that the Chechen millitia's and army's that fought the chechen wars and still fighting them are not longer unified in opperations and no longer controlled from a central command.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you, I agree that is the case.

Quote[/b] ]Surely you must understand that those Chechens fighting youre daily guerilla warfare in the Chechen mountain's are different from those that place bomb's in Russia.

So far the ones placing bombs have been the wives of those killed in Chechnya (if the media is to be believed). How are they different?

Quote[/b] ]were a composition of conventional and guerilla troops.They won that war purely by conventional means.Surely you can't deny that it was their nationalism and patriotism that made them win that war.Many parts of those troops still exist and are still active ,with the loss of the central command they are now part of some faction within the Chechen alliance.

That's interesting because these well-intentioned Chechens that formed the government still became terrorists, allied with Al Qaeda, and attacked neighboring countries FIRST, *without provocation from Russia*. Or are you one of those people who believe the "KGB" sent its own agents to stage an attack in Dagestan and bomb all those Russian houses, take a hospital hostage, etc?

[theavonlady 2]

From the UK's Sunday Times:

Saudi warlord leads Russian bombers

Quote[/b] ]Walid, a follower of the Wahhabi sect that dominates worship in Saudi Arabia, signalled the determination of Chechen extremists to take their war against the Kremlin to Russian soil when he broadcast a statement from the republic last year on Al-Jazeera, the Arab television network.

“If operations in Chechnya continue they will harm Chechen people, so we have decided to export operations inside Russia,†declared Walid, a bearded man with long black hair who wore a uniform and spoke against the backdrop of a Chechen flag.

“We consider all Russian people warriors because they elected this leadership when it pledged to crush the Chechen people. God willing they will pay for their fight with their blood and their sons.â€

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ]both sides are charged with substantiated claims of torture, rape, looting, smuggling, and embezzlement.

I can only say there are b*stards in all countries.

Since i have already given my point of view (though some people ignore it) i think there is nothing more to be said in this thread. No one is going to change his opinion on the topic. I saw the same situation when i was arguing with communists on another foum trying to prove that they are wrong but they kept saying that "communism is humane" bla bla bla. No one changed his opinion. In the end they called me a fool (they actually used a word far worse than "fool" ). Many people in Europe or USA are deceived by their own media also. News agencies try to find a sensation and they send some of their reporters to Chechnya who bring stories which can only be called fictional. There was one where a Chechen woman told a reporter how Russian cleared out a room in the house where she stayed. by her words, there were 3 women in the room and Russians at first threw a grenade into the room. She said that she and anothe woman survived because they were lying under the bed. Imagine that. Someone could survive in a small room where a grenade was thrown. But that's not all. then she said Russians used a Shmel (if i'm not mistaken it's a flamethrower). They fired from it into the room and these 2 women still survived. The temperature in the room must have been about 1000 C. So it's just another lie.

I just hope you respect those who died there (civilians and Russian conscripts (who didn't rape or torture people)).

This letter was rather emotional, sorry. I just think this thread must be closed.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]“If operations in Chechnya continue they will harm Chechen people, so we have decided to export operations inside Russia,†declared Walid, a bearded man with long black hair who wore a uniform and spoke against the backdrop of a Chechen flag.

“We consider all Russian people warriors because they elected this leadership when it pledged to crush the Chechen people. God willing they will pay for their fight with their blood and their sons.â€

I hope from now Russians will follow his logic end “export†military operations on Saudis soul, when it was belong from the beginning.