Moscow attack kills 40

[toadeater 0]

It was probably a smaller group yes I know.  But still mark my words, Russian's get out and stop trying to take over everything you see fit just because the Chechens wanted freedom from you doesn't mean you have to go in there and destroy there country, it means you let them instead of destroy them and hate them for life.

How do you feel about the Basques and the IRA? How about FARC?

Anyway, Chechnya has been part of Russia for almost 400 years, it's not like the Soviet Union conquered it, it's a part of Russia itself.

[theavonlady 2]

Chechnya has been part of Russia for almost 400 years, it's not like the Soviet Union conquered it, it's a part of Russia itself.

From WikiPedia

Quote[/b] ]Imperial Russian forces began moving into Chechnya in 1830 to secure Russia's borders with the Ottoman Empire.

[Gollum1 0]

@bmarcangel: What would the world look like if governments gave up land to every terrorist group that wants it? IRA, Basque separatists... I understand that the Russian Federation might want to keep some stability in the region, if the Russians withdraw then Chechnya could be another Afghanistan, looking at the shape it is in now.

Of course, some economical interests are involved too...

[EiZei 0]

It was probably a smaller group yes I know. But still mark my words, Russian's get out and stop trying to take over everything you see fit just because the Chechens wanted freedom from you doesn't mean you have to go in there and destroy there country, it means you let them instead of destroy them and hate them for life.

How do you feel about the Basques and the IRA? How about FARC?

Anyway, Chechnya has been part of Russia for almost 400 years, it's not like the Soviet Union conquered it, it's a part of Russia itself.

As Avon mentioned, Chechnya was conquered in 1830. Finland was conquered by Russia in 1808, should this mean we ought to lay down our arms and surrender to our russian overlords?

Hell, Estonia was even longer part of Russia (IIRC) and even mentioning the idea of being part of it again there might lead even getting your ass kicked.

[Foxtrot87 0]

Bmgarcangel, please read my post, i've written there why Russia can't let Chechnya separate. Some people ignore simple facts. Read about what happened when Russian forces were withdrawn in 1996 from Chechnya.

Quote[/b] ]Chechnya was conquered in 1830. Finland was conquered by Russia in 1808, should this mean we ought to lay down our arms and surrender to our russian overlords?

EiZei, it's not hard to guess you don't like Russia Besides what you've just said here doesn't make any sence because we're speaking of Chechnya, it is a part of Russia. And please watch what you're saying or i'll call Mr Putin

[EiZei 0]

we're speaking of Chechnya, it is a part of Russia. And please watch what you're saying or i'll call Mr Putin

So was Estonia 15 years ago.

Anyways, I am not saying to chechnya should become independent, but "because they have been part of us for x years they should not become independent" is not a valid argument.

[theavonlady 2]

And please watch what you're saying or i'll call Mr Putin  

Well?

What are you gonna call him?

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am not saying to chechnya should become independent, but "because they have been part of us for x years they should not become independent" is not a valid argument.

Argh, i didn't say it shouldn't become independant because it has been a part of Russia for some years. What i wanted to say is that you're speaking of countires which are already independant and which have different economic and political situations. I'm saying again that if you want arguments please read one of my previous posts. Ignorance is not an argument either.

Quote[/b] ]What are you gonna call him?

Well, i'll tell him this and that, ya know, Mr Putin, how about we capture Finland again? And he'll answer:"Oh, comrade! There is nothing easier than that. A few thousands of warheads and Finland is gone from the map". Please note, that's a joke

[Gollum1 0]

Well, i'll tell him this and that, ya know, Mr Putin, how about we capture Finland again? And he'll answer:"Oh, comrade! There is nothing easier than that. A few thousands of warheads and Finland is gone from the map". Please note, that's a joke

Do Russians still, or have they ever, called each other "comrade" all the time?

Yes the nuking is a joke, but just BTW he would also radiate all of St.Petersburg and Russia's western border by nuking Finland off the map

[theavonlady 2]

Yes the nuking is a joke, but just BTW he would also radiate all of St.Petersburg and Russia's western border by nuking Finland off the map  

Not if they used an atomic hairdryer (patent pending) to melt Finland.

[Foxtrot87 0]

No, Russians don't call each other "comrade" nowadays. I used this word just to add some humour into my post But in the military the word "comrade" is used when talking officially to a man of higher rank.

[Gollum1 0]

I know I know, just commenting on the general media perception of Russians.

"Comrade, get me some vodka and let's kill those capitalists and oh I swear and speak funny and I'm poor and now I'm so drunk I'm going to fall over" etc. etc.

[denoir 0]

we're speaking of Chechnya, it is a part of Russia. And please watch what you're saying or i'll call Mr Putin  

So was Estonia 15 years ago.

Nope. Estoina was a republic in the Soviet Union just as Russia was. Chechnya is on the other hand part of Russia.

Quote[/b] ]Anyways, I am not saying to chechnya should become independent, but "because they have been part of us for x years they should not become independent" is not a valid argument.

Generally, that's exactly the argument. No country in the world would willingly give up a province just like that. If you want other examples, take a look at the Basques in Spain or at Northern Ireland.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Like I said earlier in this thread, Chechen locals have little to do with what's going on. Far fewer of them wanted a revolution than it seems judging from the militants' propaganda. The militants are trained and funded by outside Islamic interests. If you look on the Chechens' own website, they promote Jihad not just against Russia, but also America. It's no coincidence because the same people behind Al Qaeda are behind the Chechen terrorists. It's also pretty sad that America actually supported these people before 9/11.

Thing's are more complicated than that.The millitary command of the chechens have certainly changed from a very direct control by the ex-president to a shared control by a number of remaining generals.But their definnatly not the lapdog of international terrorism ,even if they spew ifundamentalistic propaganda on their site.

More or less ,since the demise of the Chechen goverment structure ,the chechen militia's have allied themselfs with Al-Quida rather than obbeying them.They are in fact a crucial part of Al-Quaida in the way that Al-Quaida is actually dependant on them.The 9/11 terrorists for ex. probably got their training by some chechen millitiamen.In Afhanistan several Chechens fought alongside with the Taliban.

The reason i think why Al-quaida and the Chechens found eachother was because they were each mastering their field of war ,the Chechens are specialists on vertical warfare ,Al-Quaida the specialists in terrorism.And i can bet you that the relation beween the Chechens and Al-quida is much deeper than the relations of Al-Quida with other terrorist groups.

In this sense ,i would doubt that the Chechens really believe all that muslim-extremism bull ,however under the terms of an alliance Al-Quaida can be a valuable partner to Chechnya by providing funds ,arranging weapon imports and probably most importantly provide mujahedeen manpower ,while the Chechians are important for Al-Quaida to provide training and if needed supply highly veteran insurgents in time of war.

And i think we can admire the Chechens for one thing ,their persistence and their combat skill's.Even a few hundred men, defending Grozny could keep a multitude of Russian troops and material out of the city for a long period.And with considerable losses for Russia ,that while they already had practicly leveled the city with artillery.

The Chechen people want independance ,that's all.Even if it's an non secular goverment leading the country i think they would be preppared to live in it.That the current chechen leadership is preppared to go very far to find aid for their cause is probably because the chechen militia's lost control of 95% of Chechen territory.

[Foxtrot87 0]

How can you admire terrorists who kill young conscripts? Thousands were killed. These terrorists cut Russian soldiers' heads off and record it on a camera. Russian prisoners get tortured.

I don't admire our commanders who bomb Chechen cities. I know they are wrong.

You're saying they only want independance. i'd say there is something more, economical interests. It's not a secret that terrorists get economical help, they receive money for their actions. So can we also admire suicide bombers who kill innocent people who have nothing to do with Chechnya? And you're saying you're not a fan of terrorism...

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]How can you admire terrorists who kill young conscripts? Thousands were killed. These terrorists cut Russian soldiers' heads off and record it on a camera. Russian prisoners get tortured.

I don't admire our commanders who bomb Chechen cities. I know they are wrong.

You're saying they only want independance. i'd say there is something more, economical interests. It's not a secret that terrorists get economical help, they receive money for their actions. So can we also admire suicide bombers who kill innocent people who have nothing to do with Chechnya? And you're saying you're not a fan of terrorism...

I am not a fan of terrorism.I do not admire their terrorist attacks on civilian targets for sure ,however in the context there i stated that i had once a admiration of Chechen guerilla tactics.Torturing soldiers that invade youre country ,as gruesome as it may be ,is not terrorism but war.Only when civilians are targetted we can talk about terrorism.Besides i don't recall the russian's being pantsies when it comes to torturing Chechens really ,the russian army is not exactly very clean and surgical in their opperations ,artillery bombardments on towns and cities were plentifull when Russia re-invaded Chechnya.The russians made it a dirty war from the start ,and the Chechens adapted themselfs to that ,and how.To think how low they were in manpower ,material etc it was really a wonder that they could hold out so long eventually.

I think it would be hard to tell what exactly the agenda of the Chechen militia's are ,in any case i'm sure their are a number of Chechen millitia's opperating tottaly sepperate from others.With the fall of central command over the Chechen millitia's with the current puppet president the Chechens got now the millitia's are much more devided with some having connections to local warlords ,others probably engaging in terrorism ,...

They still all hate the russians though so they probably still fight them often.But i wonder ,should Cechnya be set free today ,wouldn't it collapse in a civil war emmidiatly?

And to talk about terrorist attacks.I'm not a conspiracy theory thinker but the bomb in the Russian appartment bloc that killed a small amount of people just when Putin had become PM was to me quite dubious.It came on such a strategic moment ,and prior to that date the Chechens never had done such attacks on Russian soil.

[NurEinMensch 0]

Torturing of enemy soldiers surely is a fact of war, but that still doen't make it any better or more just than any other form of terrorism.

[toadeater 0]

Thing's are more complicated than that.The millitary command of the chechens have certainly changed from a very direct control by the ex-president to a shared control by a number of remaining generals.But their definnatly not the lapdog of international terrorism ,even if they spew ifundamentalistic propaganda on their site.

The Chechen people want independance ,that's all.Even if it's an non secular goverment leading the country i think they would be preppared to live in it.That the current chechen leadership is preppared to go very far to find aid for their cause is probably because the chechen militia's lost control of 95% of Chechen territory.

You're missing my main point. It's not the Chechen civilians that are leading this movement. It is militants, and outside interests. The civilians have no choice in the matter, they're caught between Russians who will execute them, and the militants who will do the same if they think someone is a collaborator. Not that there's that many Chechen militants left at this point.

The civilians didn't want to fight a suicidal battle for Chechen independence, they didn't want Chechnya to become an ally for Al Qaeda and part of global Jihad. I get the feeling they didn't want to fight Russia for independence AT ALL. The militants, who happen to also profit from the terrorism have no regard for the welfare of civilians, probably less so than the Russians do. They use the excuse of Chechen nationalism to mask their true agenda.

The Chechen militants are not Palestinians, they're not Iraqis, they are much closer to something like the Taliban, and they cannot be allowed to gain power because it would mean Al Qaeda would gain an entire country to freely operate from again.

Hey, I used to think Putin was lying about the Chechens too, but after seeing how the Chechens operate, their ties to Al Qaeda and global Jihad, I know that they're up to no good.

[toadeater 0]

They still all hate the russians though so they probably still fight them often.But i wonder ,should Cechnya be set free today ,wouldn't it collapse in a civil war emmidiatly?

No, it would become an Al Qaeda base immediately. The militants would keep the civilians quiet and we'd have another Taliban-like situation on our hands.

When they'd gain enough power, they'd attack neighboring countries.

[Apollo 0]

@Toadeater:

The point that i was trying to make is that the Chechen millitia's and army's that fought the chechen wars and still fighting them are not longer unified in opperations and no longer controlled from a central command.And the interrests of independant factions that control certain parts of these troops may vary.Ever since the decapitation of the top of the Chechen goverment structure certain faction have gone their own way in using the men that they have at command.Afterall ,a country is never composed of fundamentalists alone ,there are enough lets call it entrepeneurs in the country who will gladly finance those militia's or troops that are fighting for their cause ,while their might be also millitia's that fight for religious causes.The chechen society has a diverse class system and ethnic structure that may provide for many difference's within the country.They all fight for Chechen independance ,and in the case of the religious fundamentalists they might be fighting for more ,nevertheless they are all fighting that war in their own sepperate way.Surely you must understand that those Chechens fighting youre daily guerilla warfare in the Chechen mountain's are different from those that place bomb's in Russia.

This "loose" alliance between various Chechen faction's in fighting of Russia can be very flexible and coorperation's between certain groups may happen on very different levels.

You could compare it to the Northern Alliance after the death of Massoud ,basicly a number of different faction's pressed on a little mountain range that they can still defend barely having lost the person that bounded the alliance strong toghether.

That all these factions still present a minority in total chechen population is probably true ,but that is actually pretty reasonable ,as they present different layers of their society and have much influence in this.I can understand that many chechens are tired of the war ,however i doubt that their arn't many nationalists in Chechnia.

The troops that fought the first Chechen independance war with Jeltsin were by no mean's terrorists.The were controlled by the democraticly ellected Chechen goverment.They were a composition of conventional and guerilla troops.They won that war purely by conventional means.Surely you can't deny that it was their nationalism and patriotism that made them win that war.Many parts of those troops still exist and are still active ,with the loss of the central command they are now part of some faction within the Chechen alliance.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Torturing of enemy soldiers surely is a fact of war, but that still doen't make it any better or more just than any other form of terrorism.

Actually in globel international relations it surely makes a big difference.After 9/11 terrorism has gotten a very distinct position in the world ,ever since the president of the worlds most powerfull country by far has declared a global war on terrorism.If you look to cases like the Israeli/Palestinian case you can see that terrorism might be determinal for the justification of a war or resistance.Cazling a certain country or faction terrorists often mean's "kill them of ASAP" ,while there may be much nuancations to their situation that would almost ask for new labels to be invented.

On the point of torture: I think there are a numberinternational laws that might prevent most torture ,depending of wich laws have been signed by the individual country's.In the case of Chechnia ,since they never gotten internationally recognized they probably never got the chance to sign such accord's ,in the case of Russia they might also have avoided certain laws.In any case it happens over the world even in democracy's. (Guantanamo anyone?)

I would also doubt if there arn't cases of torture commited by russian troops ,knowing a bit of the nature of the institution that is the Russian army.

[Foxtrot87 0]

hmm, Apollo, what makes you think that Chechen terrorists have no central command now? I'm not saying it's not true, just show me where it's written, prove it.

Quote[/b] ]To think how low they were in manpower ,material etc it was really a wonder that they could hold out so long eventually.

Unfortunately many deceptions are spread out in Europe about these Chechen terrorists. They are not low in manpower because they often hire soldiers (it can sound strange, but some foreign soldiers were hired also). They are not low in material. If you saw video records of Russian spetsnaz or other Russian units discover hidden weaponory, food, etc you wouldn't say that. There are plenty of weapons (RPKs, Aks, RPGs, etc) and plenty of ammo for them. The amount of food is enough to feed a great number of men. As i have already said they receive economical help from their "fellow terrorists" like Bin Laden who was praising Chechen terrorists for their actions and especially for taking hostages in Nord Ost theatre. It's easy to guess they can afford all that.

Some months ago Chechen terrorists bombed a hospital in Chechnya where Chechen civilians and Russian soldiers were receiving medical aid. A car full of explosives was used. Those people died of course.

Quote[/b] ]I would also doubt if there arn't cases of torture commited by russian troops ,knowing a bit of the nature of the institution that is the Russian army.

Concerning Russian army i can say that privates are considered nothing there, officers do whatever they want. Not long ago Russian conscripts were taken from Moscow to the eastern boarder of Russia. Can you imagine how long it took them to get there? First they were transported by bus, then a plane was used. After landing in some airport to refuel those conscripts were taken out from the plane and had to stay outside without warm clothes. After that they got to frozen barracks. All of them caught cold or were badly ill by that time. Why did Russian government had to take them to the eastern border and in such conditions? I have nothing to say here except for some really bad words. That's how our privates are treated. So i can agree with you on some aspects of our army

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]hmm, Apollo, what makes you think that Chechen terrorists have no central command now? I'm not saying it's not true, just show me where it's written, prove it.

From Wikipedia:

Also there is self-proclaimed separatist government not recognized by any state. The president of this government is Aslan Maskhadov, the Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister is Akhmed Zakayev. Aslan Maskhadov was elected in an internationally monitored election in 1997 for 4 years. Then it was a major force. In 2001 he issued a decree prolonging his office for one additional year; he didn't participate the 2003 presidential election. Maskhadov left Grozny and moved to the separatist-controlled areas of the south with the onset of the Second Chechen War. President Maskhadov has been unable to influence a number of warlords who retain effective control over Chechen territory, and his power was diminished. Most probably, any actions of Maskhadov's government or even its disappearance would not change current situation in the Chechen Republic.

Profile of Shamil Basayev:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamil_Basayev

He came to prominence in 1995 during the first Chechen war when he led a hostage-taking raid at Budennovsk, Russia. Around January 1, 1998 he was appointed prime minister of Chechnya by president Aslan Maskhadov for a six month term, after which he resigned.

During the rebel withdraw from Grozny in January 2000 he lost a foot after stepping on a landmine, but eluded Russian capture together with other rebels by hiding in forests and mountains. He welcomed assistance from Islamic groups including the Taleban of Afghanistan and was accused by Russia of organising suicide bombings of Russian apartment blocks in September 1999.

Around November 2, 2002 Basayev said on a rebel website that he was responsible for the Moscow theatre siege. He also tendered his resignation from all posts in Maskadov's rebel organisation, apart from the reconnaissance and sabotage battalion. He defended the operation but asked Maskhadov for forgiveness for not informing him of it.

(however as thus Basayev opperates beyond any concensus with other group's)

Profile on Aslan Mashadov:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan_Maskhadov

Aslan Maskhadov (born 1951) is a Chechen general and chief of staff during the 1994-1996 war against Russia. Maskhadov is a silent, organized military leader whom many credit with the Chechen victory in the mid-1990s. In January 1997, Maskhadov was elected President of Chechnya on a platform including demands for independence from Moscow.

Maskhadov was born to Chechens in exile in Kazakhstan; his family returned to Chechnya in 1957. He soon joined the Soviet army, serving in both Hungary and Lithuania. After helping to end the Lithuanian nationalist movement in 1991, Maskhadov became the Chief of Staff for the Chechen army. After fighting the war with Russia, which did not result in independence in spite of multiple victories, Maskhadov became a candidate for President, running against Shamil Basayev, a field commander with a popular following. After Maskhadov's victory, he worked with Basayev until 1998, when the rival established a network of military officers which soon devolved into territorial warlords scattered around Chechnya. With the arrival of this opposition, Maskhadov found himself the target of assassination attempts and his country suffered through multiple terrorist attacks which reduced his popular support. Maskhadov's attempts to stifle Wahhabism and other fundamentalist Muslim groups, coupled with his inability to keep Chechens from trying to drive Russians out of neighboring Dagestan, made him appear incompetent and incapable of controlling his country.

And to go a bit further on the torture bit etc. :

again from Wikipedia:

According to Chechen rebel sources 60,000 civilians have so far died this war.

During the initial months of the war, Russia made effective use of air power instead of immediately rushing in massive numbers of ground troops. Thus, the Russians have avoided the first war's extremely high casualties. Russian forces later resorted to heavy carpet bombing and ballistic missile strikes against Grozny and other major cities. Though corridors were made for civilians to exit the cities when the attacks occurred, rebels sometimes blocked their escape. There are also reports of chemical weapons being used against rebels, though this is yet unconfirmed. Some Western countries have criticized heavy-handedness of the Russian military in dealing with the rebels, and both sides are charged with substantiated claims of torture, rape, looting, smuggling, and embezzlement.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]And i think we can admire the Chechens for one thing ,their persistence and their combat skill's.Even a few hundred men, defending Grozny could keep a multitude of Russian troops and material out of the city for a long period.And with considerable losses for Russia ,that while they already had practicly leveled the city with artillery.

They have some military skill because 90% of them were train in Russian army. First Chechen president Dudaev was ex General of Russian air forces.

In case of 100 mans defending the Groznyy, well, you have to check yours sources again.

The only reason why Russian fail first assault on city, just because some f_heads general think he can liberate city, which have more then 15000 defenders with 800 (!!!) Russian troops.

In case of combat losses Chechen lost 8 to 1 in last 6 years of fighting. Even they current leader admit, that loses on their side exided 30.000. That’s why he starts to call it genocide and ask for peace negotiation. But war didn’t work this way. You can’t ask for peace when enemy knocking on your front door.

It’s the same as Sudam Hussein starts negotiate his surrender, when US solders open door to his hideout. It just didn’t work this way.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The only reason why Russian fail first assault on city, just because some f_heads general think he can liberate city, which have more then 15000 defenders with 800 (!!!) Russian troops.

That may have been the case in the first Chechen war ,but i was talking about the siege of grozny in the second Chechnya war.

Quote[/b] ]In case of combat losses Chechen lost 8 to 1 in last 6 years of fighting.

Can you proof that figure? Ive seen nothing of such number before.Are these figure's from Russian media?

As far as i've seen it ,the current situation is that the chechens still control an amount of x territory in the Chechnyan highlands be it conceiled from where they have theire base of opperation's from wich they wage a war in attrition.I can believe that the Chechens may have lost a lot of theyre conventional troops in direct confrontation's with Russian troops in the onset of the 2nd chechen war when they were forced to retreat many times.However when it comes to guerilla opperations like rpg or "bomb on road" attacks i doubt that they loose much men.

In any case ,to me it seems that they manage to keep the region unstable for russia at the moment withought the loss of much manpower at the moment ,though they may have lost many men before.

The Chechen situation is still one of grave concern for mr Putin for his position sake ,although he has managed very well to put the media to his hand. (Decline of such oliarch's like Goerzinsky ,ex-boss of "med tv"?) But in the end Russia still hasn't won the 2nd Chechen war.