Moscow attack kills 40

[bn880 5]

Yeah Right. FLQ crisis? War Measures Act? The French president unceremoniously kicked out of Canada when he proclaimed at a speech in Quebec "Vive le Quebec Libre!" Any of that ring a bell?

*edit*

These days perhaps, it's a lot more likely that if a vast majority of Quebecer's want to separate (which isn't the case anyway after they've realized that no, they can't keep Canada's passport and currency ) it would be more likely. But what's different? The separatists are trying through lawful means, and abandoned the FLQ's tactics. The Chechen's haven't, and aren't likely to. Hell, they had defacto independence in the mid 90's and screwed it up by stirring up this BS again.

Actually yes, there was going to be a bit of a mess last time they wanted to seperate. Good it didn't happen, as I see it as misconcieved anyway. Today though... I don't see the same thing happening.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]If the muslims want independence then why don't you leave them alone?

Russian already did it in 1996. Before Chechens invade neighboring Dagestan in 1999.

So you mean to say the conflict is in Dagestan not Chechnya? Or is this a revenge thing?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]I think I can agree though that this is not nearly as serious as what the US does by going out of their way to cause havoc across the world. Sorry if it came across that way, because clearly this is not like Afghanistan or Iraq for US.

if you want to talk about your political perspective find appropriate thread, not shoving it in every place to 'draw parallels and/or comparisons'

you have to discuss cause and results, but the arguments has to be made soundly on objective(and sometimes dry) basis, not on someone's political agenda.

Quote[/b] ]Actually yes, there was going to be a bit of a mess last time they wanted to seperate. Good it didn't happen, as I see it as misconcieved anyway. Today though... I don't see the same thing happening.

Quebec can have Celine Dion and Avril Lavigne(brrrrrrr....) for all i care.

[bn880 5]

crisis in algeria was brewing since the end of WW2 with the appearance of independentist groups, it took something like 15 years to reach the flashpoint of the crisis which led to war

However it seems to me that this war has been actually going on for years, not that it's been leading up to it for 15, I'm sure it's been leading up to it just as long.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]I think I can agree though that this is not nearly as serious as what the US does by going out of their way to cause havoc across the world. Sorry if it came across that way, because clearly this is not like Afghanistan or Iraq for US.

if you want to talk about your political perspective find appropriate thread, not shoving it in every place to 'draw parallels and/or comparisons'

you have to discuss cause and results, but the arguments has to be made soundly on objective(and sometimes dry) basis, not on someone's political agenda.

Sorry to see logic escaping you as well. You learn to judge and explain situations and viewpoints through comparisons. And htis is how a human brain works. So I am sorry but I don't understand what you're whining about.

[ran 0]

crisis in algeria was brewing since the end of WW2 with the appearance of independentist groups, it took something like 15 years to reach the flashpoint of the crisis which led to war

However it seems to me that this war has been actually going on for years, not that it's been leading up to it for 15, I'm sure it's been leading up to it just as long.

Well, this war is a long lasting mess in Poutine's backyard, not up to me to stick my nose in it.

[bn880 5]

crisis in algeria was brewing since the end of WW2 with the appearance of independentist groups, it took something like 15 years to reach the flashpoint of the crisis which led to war

However it seems to me that this war has been actually going on for years, not that it's been leading up to it for 15, I'm sure it's been leading up to it just as long.

Well, this war is a long lasting mess in Poutine's backyard, not up to me to stick my nose in it.

Yeah you are right. It's not my war either, this is entirely not my concern, but I thought it would be interesting on getting some discussion goingto get more info from members who know all about it.

[Pathy 0]

I have personally been in the Moscow Metro (where the attack happened). I can imagine how bad a suicide bomber would effect it. For a start, i dont know if anyone has ever seen pictures of it, but its a LONG distance underground.

Theres just escalators going down, its like

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in its steepness (and it takes about 2 minutes to get down), probably more so, i shit you not.

Musta been hell to get emergency services down there and evacuate people. Plus it was at rush hour. Damn busy at the best of times (i could tell you an amusing story about that, but kinda not the time), even if the kill count was relatively low, there would be mass panic, people being pushed about, trains arrive every minute or 2, stampedes on the escalators, god knows.

Anyway RE:chechens, as far as im aware, the US initailly considered it a freedom fight, then didnt care, then suddenly after 9/11, used it to get Russia onboard its "war on terror"

[ralphwiggum 6]

your agenda on that post was clearly drawing parallels with TBA, and given your past behaviour, i see that it was more to bash TBA then actually talk about Chechen conflict.(offtopic)

Comparisons and parallels are useful, but is not the sufficient condition. not all things happen again in exact same fashion in history. there are some generalized 'models' to discuss it, but not precise mechanics to describe it.

[akm74 1]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (AKM74 @ Feb. 06 2004,15:52)

Quote

If the muslims want independence then why don't you leave them alone?

Russian already did it in 1996. Before Chechens invade neighboring Dagestan in 1999.

So you mean to say the conflict is in Dagestan not Chechnya? Or is this a revenge thing?

No, I mean, if you give independence for example to California, and after 3 years they invade neyboring Nevada… You will take action against California, after you finish off invaders in Nevada itself. Right?

[toadeater 0]

It is being invaded, what are you talking about... when APC's and troops roll in and are being challenged it means it is being invaded.  If the muslims want independence then why don't you leave them alone?  If Quebec here wants independence they can have it...

Canada will give Quebec independence? Yeah, I'd like to see that. While you're at it, will America allow Mexico to annex California? Then what's next?

Critics of Chechnya always seem to forget that the Chechens restarted the war, not Russia. They invaded Dagestan and attacked neighboring territories, they also have a presence in Georgia.

The fact is, Chechen civilians have little to do with what's going on. They don't want "independence" as much as they want to stop being terrorized. The Chechen terrorists are coordinated and supported by outside interests (including the CIA, up until 9/11 gave the CIA a nice present from Allah), not the Chechen locals, the locals are the victims in all this from all sides.

[bn880 5]

@Ralph, ok I see your point, I'm sure in some percentage you are right that I was bashing the TBA.

@AKM74

In all reality, probably if I could I would take care of California fully yes. However I doubt that's always a good thing if it drags on too long without an end in sight. Also it may be possible to set up a defence good enough to prevent a future invasion etc. After making some serious attempts at diplomacy again.

It may be "impossible" to take care of every single militant/seperatist for a very long time, so that has to be an issue. By "impossible" I mean without major human rights violations.

@toadeater

Seriously if a large majority of Quebeqers wanted to separate now it may just go by without a major conflict. The fact is they don't want to seperate, they realize they went for a ride last time, they would not be better off without Canada, quite the contrary. (let's leave the Quebec thing since Ralph will get upset )

[Foxtrot87 0]

Well, here goes my unprofessional point of view in why Russia can't give "freedom" to Chechnya:

1)Economic reasons (oh, c'mon, who doesn't need oil nowadays? not for personal use of course )

2)Chechnya would be the second Afghanistan and would share borders with Russia. Is it any good? Easy to guess.

Through Chechnya illegal drugs (and terrorists of course) are transported to Russia . Imagine what would happen if Chechnya separates from Russia and Russian forces won't be able to interfere. Drugs would still be transported to Russia and i'm afraid drugs would not be the worst thing there. Besides i really don't think Chechens would start living comfortably if they separate.

I took the word freedom in quotes because from my point of view there are no small countries in the east which are free and fully independant.

About metro: i ride in it every morning during rush hour and it's such a mess You can hardly breathe there in the train because you have to squeeze inside-there are too many people. And more get inside on every station. I can imagine what happened there during that morning.

[bn880 5]

Good to get some info on the situation...

I got so busy looking at the cause i forgot to comment on the effect: I'm sure it's like a nightmare from many people in Moscow now... especially the ones injured and families of the dead. This is really something that terrorizes.

[Blake 0]

Bombs will continue to explode no matter what the Russians grant for Chechens. There's already cult of suicide bombers rising up which can't put down by anything, sadly. IT'S SO DAMN TRENDY TO BE SUICIDE BOMBER THESE DAYS.

[ozanzac 0]

Bombs will continue to explode no matter what the Russians grant for Chechens. There's already cult of suicide bombers rising up which can't put down by anything, sadly. IT'S SO DAMN TRENDY TO BE SUICIDE BOMBER THESE DAYS.

Well actually, I doubt that. Because if the Chechens were to be granted what they seek, independence, then their reason to continue to send any sought of suicide bombers into the Russian cities would cease to exist.

All they really want is independence, and unfortunately, blood will continue to be shed for as long as there is no independence for Chechnya, and for as long as the Russian government and Military hold a grudge for the Chechen victory at Budyonnovsk in 1995.

But, it is still to be proven whether the bomb came from the Chechens at all. There is a distinct possibility that it could have been the responsibility of Muslim rebels from Dagestan, a province neighbouring Chechnya, as terror attacks of late have been blamed on the Chechens, and the current war in Chechnya was actually a spill over from fighting in Dagestan.

Unfortunately, with a media in Russia restricted from reporting fully on the war, it may take some time before the truth is known.

[EiZei 0]

Hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist here but werent some russian intelligence agency employees caught once setting up a bomb somewhere and later said it was just a training exercise?

[Foxtrot87 0]

I've already written here why Russia can't give independance to Chechnya. Perhaps you are right that suicide Chchen bombings will end, but if terrorists see that their demands are met, they will ask more and continue suicide bombings. Fulfilling their demands will lead to more attacks from other terrorist groups.

Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately, with a media in Russia restricted from reporting fully on the war, it may take some time before the truth is known.

I guess many countries (if not all) have this problem. And i can't say i like it  

Edit: Eizei, this sounds like another unproved sensation story made up by some media agency which can't be trusted.

[qUiLL 0]

im somewhat confused on one thing. WHY does chechnya want freedom? whats wrong with being part of russia? is that area even policed by russia?

[ozanzac 0]

The Chechen struggle is not as though it is a recent event in history. For a while, Stalin did his best to keep them quiet and it succeeded to keep them quiet until the start of the fall of the Soviet Union. But when they sensed the opportunity to claim their independence at around the time the Berlin wall collapsed, their desire for independence was re-kindled.

Prior to WWII, the Chechens had a tradition of not being ruled by anyone other than themselves. They fought to keep out Mongols and Turks alike before the Russians started during the time of Tsars, and for most part of Soviet rule up until WWII; the Soviets only had minor control over Chechens. But when the Russians feared that the Chechens and other minorities would sympathize with the Nazi's, Stalin had the population relocated to Kazakhstan and Siberia. Only to return home in the mid fifties, albeit, the two re-location process' killed around quater of the Chechen population.

Basically, the Chechen people are of a tribal warrior like mentality. They will not give up until their attackers/occupiers have. But due to the instability of the region, it is safer, for the time being, for Russia to suppress the Chechens and other small provinces for as long as it can. In the long term, this would probably only increase the amount of terror attacks that the Russian public is forced to suffer, like this instance. It’s a no-win situation for Russia and its people.

And after all, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[Apollo 0]

I'm not a fan of terrorism ,but it's for a big part Putin's fault that the situation escelated this far.

After defeating Jeltsin's troops out of Chechnya the Chechen politician had made good work of organizing their goverment.It had a very strong and able president at the time (doedajev) and it's overall poliical structure was very well organized for a rebelious province.Even today peace negotiation's between Chechnya and Russia would be possible to organize ,afterall Chechnya still has a lot of ellected politician's.

But then Poeting became PM and about his first order was to return and take Chechnya back as a promotion stunt to the upcomming ellection's. (after he let Jeltsin away with a shitload of $ stolen from monetary funds given to Russia by the West ,but now he's takeing on the oliarchy allright)

Terrorism has never been a hallmark of Chechen resistance fighting.Chechens gennerally are very experienced in vertical warfare ,even groundbraking if you will ,many expirenced chyechen officers are by time to time exchanged to other rebel groups to educate them actually.Think of Al-Quaida's training camps they were full of chechens edducating the new mujahedeen.

But why have they gotten to use terrorism those Chechens who were so effective in vertical warfare?

What i know is ,that Doedajev died 2 days before the first terrorist attack in Moskou.Doedajev was widly respected and honoured in his country ,for Chechens he was ia Hero.I respected him to ,he did the almost imposible ,beating in all classes a superior Russian force out of his country.How did he die?Russian millitary had at one point found out what the telephone number of Doedajev cell phone was at some point after he had made a call to some associate.They simply picked up the coordinates of Doedajev's phone by sattleite and typed in the coordinates on a scud launcher.Only minutes later Doedajev was killed ,but not only Doedajev ,if you can believe the Chechen officials on Kavkaz.org at that time many more Chehen ellected politician's died in that attack ,in addition to a shitload of innocent civilians.Since then ,the Chechens more and more began to use terrorism ,while in Doedajev's time no true terrorists attacks were commited.

One has to put it all in perspective.Chechniya was a rebel province with a political structure at that time ,not just a terrorist bulwark.Russia could have easily got a permanent peace treaty with Chechnya.Poetin chose to stirr up nationalistic pride in his country for ellectoral reason by declaring war on the Chechyans.And Russia has been more than dirty in this war ,Grozny is as good as levelled these days as the Russians didn't dare to enter the city when the Chechen resistance was still in the city ,so they bombarded the city continually for several month's.There are no official figure's of how much innocent civilians have been killed in this war with many bombardments ,but i wouldn't be surprized if the number of that exceeded the death toll by terrorism in Russia by far.

That said ,the Chechens are very dangerous now ,and essentially must be rooted out now.Russia should have never decapitated the Chechens of their upper command ,by cleaning out the moderate leaders in the organization now only the extreme millitant leaders are left.

[bmgarcangel 0]

you know what, they are commiting acts of terrorisim because they want the Russian's to get out of there country for good. It could all be over tormorrow if they left. I don't support terrorisim, but the Chechens are desperate, they could attack military targets, but what good will that do?

They want to strike fear into the souls of Russian's, all Russian's, they are doing it but sadly they are also making Russia stronger in its resistance against the Chechens.

Now all I have to say, Russian's leave the Chechens country, and this all could be over right now, I hope they would, for it is not there country anymore, they can and should let it go instead of causing more and more Chechens to revolt against them and thus causing more and more of the Russian civilians to be slaughtered. The Chechens won't give up until they have there country or until every last man and women is killed. Is Russia to be the murderer of a entire society then or should they leave? I'll leave it up to you all to decide that. Leave it up to Putin to decide that, id hope he'd make some right descission in his career as prime minister

[ozanzac 0]

I don't support terrorisim, but the Chechens are desperate, they could attack military targets, but what good will that do?

But that's jumping to conclusions, that the Chechens are responsible for this. While I concur that this sort of act is not warranted, the Chechen seperatists claimed they are not responsible, and that may well be the truth.

[bmgarcangel 0]

It was probably a smaller group yes I know. But still mark my words, Russian's get out and stop trying to take over everything you see fit just because the Chechens wanted freedom from you doesn't mean you have to go in there and destroy there country, it means you let them instead of destroy them and hate them for life.

[toadeater 0]

im somewhat confused on one thing. WHY does chechnya want freedom? whats wrong with being part of russia? is that area even  policed by russia?

Like I said earlier in this thread, Chechen locals have little to do with what's going on. Far fewer of them wanted a revolution than it seems judging from the militants' propaganda. The militants are trained and funded by outside Islamic interests. If you look on the Chechens' own website, they promote Jihad not just against Russia, but also America. It's no coincidence because the same people behind Al Qaeda are behind the Chechen terrorists. It's also pretty sad that America actually supported these people before 9/11.

Chechen Terrorists' Website

Look at the links on the page, some of them go directly to pro-Al Qaeda sites like jihadonline.com, that ought to tell you something.