The Iraq thread 3

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]So are you saying there were 2,785 bystanders in the pictures?

No but don´t you think most of them knew about the things that happened there ? Don´t they talk to each other ?

About all that funny things they did to Iraqi´s ? Definately worth a chat...

Nethertheless I didn´t say that 2785 bystanders where on the pics. You´re ridsing the microlevel evidence wave again Avon ?

Quote[/b] ]The entire brigade did not act because only a small percentage of them were involved.

Aha. Now that clear is it up. NOT.

If members of a brigade do not behave like the rest and torture people or kill them or sexually abuse them it´s ok to look over it because it´s just a "small percentage" ?

I won´t even bother to reply to such Avon nonsense.

[MLF 0]

Your assuming that everyone knew because you believe that they all talked about it, alot of people probally knew that there was some fucked up shit going on, but had no way of knowing if its true or not.

I will respond to your post when i get back from the doctors Bals, if i don't respond to our post in a couple day's, it's not because i can't asnwer, its probally because i will be going under the knife to have my toncels out

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]No but don´t you think most of them knew about the things that happened there ? Don´t they talk to each other ?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119159,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Mead said "you'd hear the stories" about soldiers or intelligence officers using force or humiliation to control problematic prisoners, but nothing like the type of abuse depicted in the photographs.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....brigade

Quote[/b] ]Taguba found the 744th MP Battalion and its commander Lt. Col. Dennis McGlone smoothly ran the prison that holds the top figures of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime — including perhaps the deposed leader himself. The 530th MP Battalion under Lt. Col. Stephen Novotny also did a good job operating the detention camp northeast of Baghdad holding some 2,000 members of the Mujahedeen Khalq, an Iranian guerrilla group opposed to Tehran's clerical regime.

Are they guilty, Balschoiw?

[Balschoiw 0]

Good luck MLF, I had mine removed when they were big like table-tennis balls

It wasn´t that nice...

Quote[/b] ]Your assuming that everyone knew because you believe that they all talked about it, alot of people probally knew that there was some fucked up shit going on, but had no way of knowing if its true or not.

Those prisons aren´t gigantic. And the level of injuries some on the pics had did take the attention of a lot of branches of those running the prisons:

- Medical staff

- Guards

- Transport units

- Interrogating units

- Watchtower guards

...

...

Those are a lot of people from different units, don´t you think ?

I mean even people outside the prisons knew about the abuses going on. How can people who work in the prisons not know about them ?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]So are you saying there were 2,785 bystanders in the pictures?

No but don´t you think most of them knew about the things that happened there ? Don´t they talk to each other ?  

So much for reliable sources.

In short: speculation.

[KingBeast 0]

As much as it sucks for those people that miss out on their commendations due to the actions of a few bad apples, I think its something that has to be done. As far as I always thought, the actions of each and every member in a unit/brigade represents the group as a whole. ie not that they are all torturous prisoner abusers, but clearly the culprits must not have cared much about their units reputation when they were taking souvenir shots of abused prisoners.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]The entire brigade did not act because only a small percentage of them were involved.

Aha. Now that clear is it up. NOT.

If members of a brigade do not behave like the rest and torture people or kill them or sexually abuse them it´s ok to look over it because it´s just a "small percentage" ?  

I did not say that.

If my confusion here is that you were referring to a specific unit and not the entire brigade, then, generally, I agree with you.

However, the news article mentions the cancelation of bronze star awards for the entire brigade of thousands and you continue to stretch the imagination by insinuating that everyone knew.

Quote[/b] ]I won´t even bother to reply to such Avon nonsense.

Whoopee!

[theavonlady 2]

its probally because i will be going under the knife to have my toncels out  

Does your HMO cover Haagen Daz?

[Balschoiw 0]

@billybob2002:

That´s just ridiculouse. DO you think they will all stand upand say :

"Oh of course we knew what was going on"

This would be just stupid. It would put them on the list of the ones who get punished. Why should they say things that fall backon them within a second ?

But thanks for the link:

Quote[/b] ]A member of another unit guarding Abu Ghraib said morale was so low among military police that when rumors started circulating about the abuse scandal, "there was nothing anyone could have done to shock us at that point."

Aha.

Quote[/b] ]Are they guilty, Balschoiw?

We will see who´s guilty or not. But to play it down as "acts of a few" isn´t that real, don´t you think ?

All reports tell different.

Oh and it´s fine to see some screaming about medals while others were tortured and abused.

Makes a nice insight view.

*Irony*

"Damn, only because I shoved up a broomstick into this Iraqi´s butt I won´t get my medal! "

*Irony*

[billybob2002 0]

In other news,

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/10/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. troops kill 19 insurgents in Baghdad fighting

Monday, May 10, 2004 Posted: 7:52 AM EDT (1152 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. soldiers Sunday killed 19 Iraqi insurgents in a string of engagements in Baghdad's eastern Thawra district, the Coalition Press Information Center said.

Quote[/b] ]

The CPIC said that insurgents took to the streets of Thawra City one day after the detention of an alleged financier and lieutenant for al-Sadr's militia. The two were arrested in a raid outside al-Sadr's headquarters in the Baghdad suburb of Sadr City on Saturday night.

Quote[/b] ]

The insurgents staged a series of rocket-propelled grenade attacks on coalition forces and an Iraqi police station. While CPIC reported no coalition casualties, the military press office said 19 insurgents were killed.

Also on Sunday, at least five people were killed in an explosion at a crowded Baghdad market, police said.

Among the dead in the market blast was a child, police said. Thirteen people, including six police officers, were wounded, according to police. One of the wounded police officers was in critical condition, police said.

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. forces killed more than 50 suspected members of al-Sadr's militia, captured two others and found weapons caches during the operation, according to military officials. They came under sporadic attacks from rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and small arms, officials said.

Quote[/b] ]

The U.S. Army's 2nd Cavalry on Sunday extended its territory about a mile beyond its base in Najaf, military officials said.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]That´s just ridiculouse. DO you think they will all stand upand say :

"Oh of course we knew what was going on"

This would be just stupid. It would put them on the list of the ones who get punished. Why should they say things that fall backon them within a second ?

But thanks for the link:

Quote[/b] ]

Sgt. Adam Mead, of Gouldsboro, Pa., who worked in a processing center for new inmates, said the facility was repeatedly asked to take far more prisoners than it could safely hold.

He said "heard stories" not I did not hear anything. He did not deny that "stories" were going around.

Quote[/b] ]Aha.

The army report mentions this (LOW morale) and other problems.

Must study for 10:00 am test and 11:00 am final exam....  

[Balschoiw 0]

Here is the summary of the 24 pages ICRC report published in parts in the Wall Street Journal , 7th May 2004

Quote[/b] ]The report was handed to U.S. authorities in February 2004.

The ICRC said it drew the attention of the coalition forces "to a number of serious violations of international humanitarian law. These violations have been documented and sometimes observed while visiting prisoners of war, civilian internees and other protected persons by the Geneva Conventions."

Violations listed in the report in the Journal include:

-- Brutality against protected persons upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury.

-- Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information.

-- Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight.

-- Excessive and disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment.

Some excerpts from the Wall Street Journal report:

"According to allegations collected by ICRC delegates during private interviews with persons deprived of their liberty, ill-treatment during capture was frequent.

"While certain circumstances might require defensive precautions and the use of force...the ICRC collected allegations of ill-treatment following capture which took place in Baghdad, Basrah, Ramadi and Tikrit, indicating a consistent pattern with respect to times and places of brutal behaviour during arrest.

"The repetition of such behaviour...appeared to go beyond the reasonable, legitimate and proportional use of force required to apprehend suspects or restrain persons resisting arrest or capture, and seemed to reflect a usual modus operandi by certain coalition forces' battle groups.

"According to allegations collected by the ICRC, ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an 'intelligence' value.

"In these cases, persons deprived of their liberty under supervision of military intelligence were at high risk of being subjected to a variety of harsh treatments ranging from insults, threats and humiliations to both physical and psychological coercion, which in some cases was tantamount to torture, in order to force cooperation with their interrogators."

The ICRC said it had also "started to document what appeared to be widespread abuse of power and ill-treatment by the Iraqi police, which is under the supervision of the occupying power, including threats to hand over persons in their custody to the CF so as to extort money from them.

"In the case of 'High Value Detainees' held in Baghdad International Airport, the continued internment, several months after their arrest, in strict solitary confinement in cells devoid of sunlight for nearly 23 hours a day constituted a serious violation of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions.

"Since the beginning of the conflict, the ICRC has regularly brought its concerns to the attention of the coalition forces. The observations in the present report are consistent with those made earlier on several occasions orally and in writing to the coalition forces throughout 2003.

"In spite of some improvements in the material conditions of internment, allegations of ill-treatment perpetuated...against persons deprived of their liberty continued to be collected by the ICRC and thus suggested that the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional causes and might be considered as a practice tolerated by the coalition forces."

Methods of ill-treatment during interrogation included: "hooding a detainee with a bag, sometimes in conjunction with beatings thus increasing anxiety as to when blows would come"; handcuffing so tight that they caused skin lesions and nerve damage; beating with pistols and rifles; threats of reprisals against family members; and stripping detainees naked for several days in solitary confinement in a completely dark cell."

This is what AI says:

Iraq: Torture not isolated -- independent investigations vital

Quote[/b] ]There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation. The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again. Iraq has lived under the shadow of torture for far too long. The Coalition leadership must send a clear signal that torture will not be tolerated under any circumstances and that the Iraqi people can now live free of such brutal and degrading practices," Amnesty International said.

"There must be a fully independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. Nothing less will suffice. If Iraq is to have a sustainable and peaceful future, human rights must be a central component of the way forward. The message must be sent loud and clear that those who abuse human rights will be held accountable.

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year. Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention. Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated by the authorities.

Amnesty International is calling for investigations into alleged abuses by Coalition Forces to be conducted by a body that is competent, impartial and independent, and seen to be so, and that any findings of such investigations be made public. In addition reparation, including compensation, must be paid to the victims or to their families.

And the HRW´s timeline of torture in Iraq:

A Timeline of Torture & Abuse Allegations and Responses

Quote[/b] ]June 2, 2003

- U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy writes to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice that, "unnamed Administration officials have suggested in several press accounts that detainees held by the United States have been subjected to "stress and duress" interrogation techniques, including beating lengthy sleep and food deprivation." He asks the administration if such techniques are being employed and urges a clear statement that cruel, inhuman degrading treatment of detainees will not be tolerated.

June 24, 2003

- Executive Directors of Human Rights groups write to Condoleezza Rice asking that human rights monitors have access to prisoners and detention facilities under operation by U.S. forces to verify conditions of detention.

June 25, 2003

- William Haynes responds to Senator Leahy stating, "it is the policy of the United States to comply with all its legal obligations in its treatment of detainees." For the first time, Haynes states that it is U.S. policy "to treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur" in a manner consistent with U.S. obligations under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment. He further clarified that the term "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" means any treatment that would be prohibited in the United States by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution ­ a standard that would clearly forbid most of the "stress and duress" techniques reported in the media, as well as degrading treatment later revealed in Iraq. At the same time, Haynes added that "it would not be appropriate to catalogue the interrogation techniques used by U.S. personnelthus we cannot comment on specific cases or practices."

- U.S. Senator Arlen Specter writes to Dr. Rice asking for, "clarification about numerous stories concerning alleged mistreatment of enemy combatants in U.S. custody, " and to explain how the administration ensures that torture does not occur when it sends detainees to countries that are known to practice torture.

June 26, 2003

- In honor of United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, President Bush releases a statement saying that the U.S. is: "committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example" and called on all nations to join the U.S. in "prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent cruel and unusual punishment."

August 28, 2003

- The Associated Press reports, "The U.S. military opened a hearing Wednesday into allegations that four U.S. Army reservists abused Iraqi prisoners of war at a camp in [umm Qasr]...They are alleged to have punched and kicked several Iraqis, breaking one man's nose, while escorting a busload of prisoners to a POW processing centerThe soldiers say they acted in self-defense" (The Associated Press, August 28, 2003)

September 9, 2003

- Senator Leahy responds to William Haynes' letter of June 26, 2003 urging greater clarity in how the standards he outlined are implemented and communicated to U.S. personnel in the field, and asking for assurances that other agencies, including the CIA, respect the same standards as the U.S. military.

October 6, 2003

- AP Wire Service reports, "The U.S. military has shut down Camp Cropper, an increasingly notorious makeshift prison where hundreds of Iraqi detainees were crowded into tents through Baghdad's scorching summer." (AP Wire Services, October 6, 2003

October 19, 2003

- The Associated Press reports, "Eight marine reservists face charges ranging from negligent homicide to making false statements in connection with the mistreatment of prisoners of war in Iraq." (The Associated Press, October 19, 2003)

November 17, 2003

- Executive Directors of leading human rights groups write to William Haynes to express concern about the transfer by the U.S. of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen, to Syria where Mr. Arar alleges he was brutally tortured for 10 months.

November 18, 2003

- Department of Defense (DOD) Principal Deputy General Counsel Daniel Dell'Orto writes to Senator Leahy to confirm that earlier DOD statements about the treatment of detainees bind the entire Executive Branch, but sidesteps specific questions about interrogation guidelines, and adds that articles alleging improper treatment of detainees "often contain allegations that are untrue."

December 13, 2003

- The Washington Post reports, "A battalion commander in Iraq who fired his pistol near the head of an Iraqi detainee after his soldiers had punched the prisoner was fined $5,000 yesterday as part of a nonjudicial disciplinary proceeding that effectively ends his Army career." (The Washington Post, December 13, 2003)

December 17, 2003

- The Associated Press Writer reports, "Marine reservists running a detention facility in Iraq ordered prisoners of war to remain standing for hours until interrogators could question them, according to testimony at a military court hearing" (Associated Press Writer, December 17, 2003)

January 6, 2004

- The Associated Press reports, "The U.S. Army discharged three reservists and ordered them to forfeit two months' salary for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq." (The Associated Press, January 6, 2004)

January 12, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to express concern about the detention by U.S. forces in Iraq of innocent, close relatives of a wanted person in order to compel the person to surrender, which amounts to hostage-taking, classified as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

January 13, 2004

- The Asian Wall Street Journal reports that a suspect detained by U.S. forces in Iraq claims, "he was ordered to stand upright until he collapsed after 13 hours," and interrogators, "burned his arm with a cigarette." (The Asian Wall Street Journal, January 13, 2004)

January 17, 2004

- Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports that, "The commander of U.S. forces in Iraq has ordered a criminal investigation into reports of abuse of prisoners at an unspecified coalition detention center." (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 17, 2004)

January 18, 2004

- The Sunday Times reports claims by a detainee held by coalition forces in Iraq that during his three months in detention he was, "beaten frequently, given shocks with an electric cattle prod and had one of his toenails prised[sic] off."

February 10, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Rumsfeld expressing concern about the treatment of detainees in Iraq and urges the administration to publicly clarify the status of the detainees and to make public the numbers of detainees being held.

February 23, 2004

- Reuters News reports that, "U.S. forces investigation allegations of mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at a prison west of Baghdad have suspended 17 soldiers including a battalion commander and a company commander," pending the outcome of an investigation into allegations of abuse of detainees. (Reuters News, February 23, 2004)

March 8, 2004

- Human Rights Watch releases report revealing how U.S. forces operating in Afghanistan have arbitrarily detained civilians, used excessive force during arrests of non-combatants, and mistreated detainees. Released detainees testified that U.S. forces severely beat them, doused them with cold water and subjected them to freezing temperatures. Many said they were forced to stay awake, or to stand or kneel in painful positions for extended periods of time.

May 1, 2004

- The Washington Post reports, "Arab countries reacted with rage and revulsion yesterday after images of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners were broadcast around the world. Bush administration and U.S. military officials scrambled to contain the furor and to assuage concerns among allies. The photos showed U.S. troops celebrating as prisoners were sexually humiliated and otherwise abused." (The Washington Post, May 1, 2004)

May 2, 2004

- The Washington Post reports, "A top Pentagon intelligence officer is leading an investigation into interrogation practices at an Army-run prison where Iraqi detainees were allegedly beaten and sexually abused, officials announced Saturday. The move came amid allegations that military guards abused prisoners at the behest of military intelligence operatives." (Washington Post, May 2, 2004)

May 3, 2004

- Human Rights Watch writes to Condoleezza Rice that the ill treatment and torture of prisoners by the U.S. military in Iraq were not limited to isolated incidents, but reflected, in the words of the U.S. army's own inquiry, "systemic and illegal abuse of detainees." Human Rights Watch urges immediate action to reverse the harm these actions have caused in U.S. detention centers around the world.

Prepared by the staff at Human Rights Watch.

Acts of a few ?

Nobody knew

Have a nice read.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]It would appear that your museums teach you to sterotype entire groups of people because of the acts of a few.

That's not the point is it? US military is the responsible part in running the prisons - so who are to blame then? You may say that the individual mp's are not responsible - but heck - they surely knew what was going on! It was even encouraged by superiors and/or pentagon/CIA or whatever. Is it so hard to respect human rights?

Quote[/b] ]Seems that Europe hasn't learned much anything from the second World War, at least according to your equations.

I'd say that's exactly what we did - and that's why we get along so well with germans now!

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]It would appear that your museums teach you to sterotype entire groups of people because of the acts of a few.

That's not the point is it? US military is the responsible part in running the prisons - so who are to blame then? You may say that the individual mp's are not responsible - but heck - they surely knew what was going on! It was even encouraged by superiors and/or pentagon/CIA or whatever. Is it so hard to respect human rights?

Quote[/b] ]Seems that Europe hasn't learned much anything from the second World War, at least according to your equations.

I'd say that's exactly what we did - and that's why we get along so well with germans now!

That's all fine and dandy but that's not what your post implied.

Thanks for the clarification, however.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Didnt you have a proper look at the pictures yet?

I see a boyish looking women in that picture and she reminds me of a child that pretends to be just as strong and hard as the rest of the group. Group pressure! It is the typical proof-yourself ceremonial. "See, I am just as tough as the rest of you infantrymen". I doubt that she is a sadist. Just a poor trailor-park kid that found a job in the army and strives for recognition and respect. A hard job if you got the face of little boy and the body of a child (and hell she is tiny).

But why did she think she should and needs to participate in this shooting-sessions? That I can tell you. Because it was a regular thing and not to participate in it would have meant that she would have alienated herself from the group of soldiers she wanted to impress and belong to. And another proof why this torture was a standard operating procedure shows the amount of pictures available. This photos dont stem from a crazy one-time-only party but are a diary of "what we do at work".

I dont know if you can read the same as I do in these pictures and the faces of the female american soldier within? But I am pretty certain I am right.

Group pressure! it is an old Nazi scheme and it works just perfect! Show you are tough ass and abuse the prisoners or you wont have any friends in your unit. Or to put it the Bush way "either you are with us or against us!"

This torture was a everyday procedure to break prisoners. Fair enough if the iraqis were all guilty. but I may assume that 80% werent!

And for the military I may say: I assume that your military executives deliberately failed to control the standards in the prisons. We let you do your nasty thing, dont expect much controls from our side, but make sure the prisoners talk!

[Schoeler 0]

The thing is that I already hear Schoeler calling in

"this is one incident...considering that there are 120 thousand soldiers in action it cannot be seen as a representative case of the behaviour of the US forces. Picking that one out and promoting its importance is another indicator of the double-standards the world sets. On the one hand the "poor" iraqis and on the other the "blood thirsty" and arrogantly cruel americans. "

If I may answer proactively

Liberating the iraqi people from a cruel dictator. That was the big self-orgasmic mission statement of the americans going to war. That was the "FOCUS" of your action (or do you want to go back to the WMD-justification again   ). You occupied iraq and now you only had to tear down the prisons and ensure that the torture-regime is gone. That is a pretty easy last task to achieve the "liberation" goal.

But no, the armed forces totally forget about it. Maybe the catepillars were to busy tearing down Saddams statues for CNN and FOX. Old Prisons with blood on their walls are used again. Iraqis are kept in the same cells as under Saddam. And they ARE tortured as before. Not physically but mentally. And for an arab being disrespected and dishonoured by non-believers is probably worse than being killed. (but that is probably a bit hard to understand for the american public).

Where are iraqis supposed to see the fundamental contrast to before? More electricity and water? Well couldnt that have come with a lifting of the sanctions too?

With all respect to the american war-machinery, right now on TV I only see soldiers running around, shooting here, shooting there and their faces basically say "well ... we gotta do something..we just dont know what".

Anti american feelings eh? Sorry for not getting an erection when looking at this miserable performance. Yeah well at least the flag in the courtyard of the prison was nice and tidy!

What you call anti-american, well lets put it this way: imagine one day you meet a pretty good looking girl. Her smile is awesome, her voice, her intelligence. But then you notice after a few conversations that she only talks about herself. she only blames others for mistakes, she does not allow any criticism and she always sais: "either you go shopping with me today or I will break up with you". Dont you think that one day you may forget about her beauty and tell her that the magic is gone!

Albert, I see you've elected to give me my opinion and then express it for me, so ordinarily there would be no need to comment since you've seen fit to pre-express what you imagine would be my point of view. Unfortunately, your preconceptions of how I feel about the war and the way I would react to this abuse are grossly inaccurate and unfair. Since you have resorted to this sort of unfair slander, I will deal with that issue in due time. I can assure you my response will be equally as fair as yours. In the meantime:

Quote[/b] ]This torture was a everyday procedure to break prisoners. Fair enough if the iraqis were all guilty. but I may assume that 80% werent!

I completely disagree. Guilty or not, abuse of this sort against anyone in custody is deplorable. The persons guilty of these crimes should be turned over to an Iraqi tribunal for prosecution immediately. Those in charge should be tried under the UCMJ at a courts marshall and they should be imprisoned. Senior level commanders should be stripped of their rank, benefits and retirement and dishonorably discharged. The Secretary of Defense should be fired, and the President should personally apologize to each of the tortured prisoners and their families and should personally see to it they are compensated for the abuse. Abu Gharaib should be bulldozed to the ground and a school or hospital should be built where it now stands.

[denoir 0]

The entire brigade did not act because only a small percentage of them were involved.

And how exactly would you know that? Because Bush said so?

As far as I'm concerned this is an unresolved issue. The people accused have claimed that they operated under orders. Of course they have very good reasons to lie, but they could equally well be telling the truth.

Also, as Balschoiw pointed out, it would have been difficult to hide as medical staff etc would have to have been involved.

[denoir 0]

Fair enough if the iraqis were all guilty. but I may assume that 80% werent!

Absolutely not. Such behaviour towards prisoners is unacceptable regardless for what reasons they were captured.

[billybob2002 0]

Fear the evil MPs! Wait one sec.

Quote[/b] ]

Military police officer Cpl. Keisha Palmer is embraced by Iraqi female prisoners in the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), late Saturday, May 8, 2004. Palmer and fellow soldiers from the 301st Military MPs, out of Ft. Buchanan, Puerto Rico, arrived to the prison earlier this year, replacing U.S. forces seen in photos abusing Iraqi prisoners last year. There are currently five women being held in the prison, in separate indoor cells. (AP Photo/John Moore)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The issue is heavily discussed right now in germany. I remember that the police in germany threatened to torture a kidnapper of the son of a famous german industrialist if he wouldnt tell where the hostage was hidden (if I remember correctly). Unfortunately the hostage died in a hole in the forest. The police officer himself afterwards announced his misbehaviour. Noble! But fair?

If a incredible crime can be prevented then we should at least allow a discussion on "how much torture" is justifiable! Dont forget that it can indeed prevent worse things to happen. Once a terorist is caught and in order to make him talk there must be other means available than for an ordinary criminal. It is no lie that the german army has developed strategies to torture prisoners that DO NOT go against the Geneva Convention but are very cruel as well. Cause you see what happens when such global standards dont exist then countries will build Guantanamo Bays outside home teritory and they will search for gaps in the legal system just to get what they want: "intel". Better close those gaps by allowing a certain way of putting pressure on terorists.

And Schoeller: I indeed put words into your mouth, but in my scenario I didnt make you come forward with a naive argument for this purpose!

Quote[/b] ]"this is one incident...considering that there are 120 thousand soldiers in action it cannot be seen as a representative case of the behaviour of the US forces. Picking that one out and promoting its importance is another indicator of the double-standards the world sets. On the one hand the "poor" iraqis and on the other the "blood thirsty" and arrogantly cruel americans. "

At least this is how I perceive it. The reason why I chose you was because I shortly before found an thread that you created on

"Why america is the great satan

Bash away, don't dress up your sentiment"

So I accused you to have a real argument while you accused us to have none, just pure haterage against the US. So compare yourself, who wasnt fair here?

[denoir 0]

Yeah Albert, and why we're at it, why don't we dismantle the whole judicial system. I mean if somebody has been arrested, then they surely must have done something wrong!

That kind of thinking where the possible goals justify the means are the first step to facism.

[denoir 0]

Fear the evil MPs! Wait one sec.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg....203.jpg

Quote[/b] ]

Military police officer Cpl. Keisha Palmer is embraced by Iraqi female prisoners in the Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), late Saturday, May 8, 2004. Palmer and fellow soldiers from the 301st Military MPs, out of Ft. Buchanan, Puerto Rico, arrived to the prison earlier this year, replacing U.S. forces seen in photos abusing Iraqi prisoners last year. There are currently five women being held in the prison, in separate indoor cells. (AP Photo/John Moore)

Yeah, I rember seeing Nazi propaganda films interviewing 'happy' Jews saying how they understand the need for 'labour camps' and how well they are treated.

Give me a statement from the Red Cross or Amnesty saying how well the prisoners are treated and I'll believe you.

Posting a picture from a coalition press release is nothing more than shite propaganda.

[Akira 0]

The entire brigade did not act because only a small percentage of them were involved.

And how exactly would you know that? Because Bush said so?

Well...I know of one that didn't participate at least. Actually should say three or four. All of them went to superior officers explaining what they had seen, which eventually lead to the shit storm we see right now...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, I rember seeing Nazi propaganda films interviewing 'happy' Jews saying how they understand the need for 'labour camps' and how well they are treated.

Give me a statement from the Red Cross or Amnesty saying how well the prisoners are treated and I'll believe you.

Posting a picture from a coalition press release is nothing more than shite propaganda.

That photo is from the AP not coalition press release.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yeah Albert, and why we're at it, why don't we dismantle the whole judicial system. I mean if somebody has been arrested, then they surely must have done something wrong!  

That kind of thinking where the possible goals justify the means are the first step to facism.

And what do we have now? Tell me what we have in Guantanamo then? Tell me what we know about what is happening in Iraq.

DEFINING what TORTURE is and to put it down in statues would at least ensure that all terorists would have to be considered as POW and therefore that the RED CROSS would be allowed to access the prisons. What is happening right now in the world is far worse! You are talking about the first step? Well let you remind me that it seems that some secret services engaging in IRAQ have taken more than just a tiny step. They are already half way there! Going back to the first step would actually improve the current situation!.