The Iraq thread 3

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]If they had shown those photographs all over the media it would have had a HUGE HUGE HUGE effect on the American public as it would have really caused Americans to seriously look at what we're doing over there and to question the morality of this whole war.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....es_dc_5

Quote[/b] ]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites) said on Friday he was deeply disgusted by the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops and vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of" after photographs depicting the acts were published and broadcast around the world.

Quote[/b] ]

Bush blamed a "few people" for the abuses and defended the conduct of U.S. occupation forces as the White House scrambled to head off a backlash in Iraq (news - web sites) and across the Arab world.

Quote[/b] ]

"I didn't like it one bit," Bush added. "But I also want to remind people that those few people who did that do not reflect the nature of the men and women we've sent overseas. That's not the way the people are. It's not their character, that are serving our nation in the cause of freedom."

"And there will be an investigation," Bush said of the actions of the troops. "I think they'll be taken care of."

Quote[/b] ]

White House spokesman Scott McClellan called the abuses "despicable," and said the military would pursue those responsible "to the fullest extent of the law."

Quote[/b] ]

Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, in charge of the prison, could be relieved of her command, blocked from promotion or receive a letter of reprimand after a noncriminal administrative investigation relating to events at Abu Ghraib prison, said Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad.

[Schoeler 0]

No that isn't true.  They did try to take the city but were overwhelmed on the outskirts as a result.

Can you prove it either way?  Nope, because statements from Coalition sources can not be trusted.

EDIT: I'll leave it at that.  

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts.

Ill leave it at that, lol.

I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition.

So let me get this straight.  You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened.

And yet, he cannot respond to your insults?

That's really fucking priceless Bn880, just who the fuck do you think you are?

You can insult the American military, you can insult the American press, you can insult MLF, but the minute he responds in a manner you find insulting, you demand he keep his mouth shut?

I don't think so.  

If our laughter at your exagerrations and blatant anti-American sentiment is something you find insulting, just remember that you characterizing our Marines as cowards, our decision to withdraw and end the violence as a retreat that was necessitated by defeat, and our press as a bunch of propaganda spewing liars, is extremely insulting to us.

I find your indignation laughably hypocritical, and if this insults you further, well whoopty-fucking-do! You started this argument with flamethrower language and then you act shocked that it started a fire?  Frankly I find that unbelievable.

If you want to step back and return to reasoned debate, I challenge you to show how the Marines were defeated and had to withdraw.  If you can't do that, stop calling it a retreat.

[bn880 5]

No that isn't true. They did try to take the city but were overwhelmed on the outskirts as a result.

Can you prove it either way? Nope, because statements from Coalition sources can not be trusted.

EDIT: I'll leave it at that.

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts.

Ill leave it at that, lol.

I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition.

So let me get this straight. You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened.

And yet, he cannot respond to your insults?

That's really fucking priceless Bn880, just who the fuck do you think you are?

Excuse me? I see that this problem named Fallujah is bothering you a little too much to discuss reasonably. I interpreted the event in and aroudn Fallujah, and you are attaacking me personally, and so was he. Who do you think you are? Need I remind you who was right the last time you had a tamper tantrum at me?

EDIT: You are lying in the post above, see ya, I'm not discussing with you.

[SpongeBob 0]

Kimmitt insisted that the Marines were not "withdrawing" but were "repositioning" their forces.  

Around 1,361 Were Iraqis Killed in April

Quote[/b] ]Official and complete death counts for Iraqis nationwide are unavailable. But a count by The Associated Press found that around 1,361 Iraqis were killed from April 1 to April 30 — 10 times the figure of at least 136 U.S. troops who died during the same period.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I dont really want to get too involved here and i understand where you are coming from Schoeler but technically it wouldnt be necessary for the marines to have been militarily defeated in order to have been involved in a 'retreat'. From my position of ignorance i dont wish to lecture someone but it is possible to retreat without conceding defeat (in fact i hear Sun Tzu recommends it sometimes). If the marines were held up to an extent where they felt it necessary to reapproach the situation and thus effect a tactical retreat then that doesnt necessarily constitute a defeat (marines are not surrendering  to insurgents).

[bn880 5]

Kimmitt insisted that the Marines were not "withdrawing" but were "repositioning" their forces.

Ahh I see, well you know, Saddam repositioned his forces from Kuwait too. ;)

[SpongeBob 0]

Kimmitt insisted that the Marines were not "withdrawing" but were "repositioning" their forces.  

Ahh I see, well you know, Saddam repositioned his forces from Kuwait too.  ;)

And then the US repositioned lots of Iraqis permanently to Allah from that highway.

[bn880 5]

Well you know, that was a joke, but you get what I'm saying hopefully.

A play on words can play with people's perception, it can get you out of being convicted in a court system, it can get you rich, but it can not change facts. What is, is, no matter what someone would rather prefer it was.

[Schoeler 0]

No that isn't true.  They did try to take the city but were overwhelmed on the outskirts as a result.

Can you prove it either way?  Nope, because statements from Coalition sources can not be trusted.

EDIT: I'll leave it at that.  

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts.

Ill leave it at that, lol.

I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition.

So let me get this straight.  You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened.

And yet, he cannot respond to your insults?

That's really fucking priceless Bn880, just who the fuck do you think you are?

Excuse me?   I see that this problem named Fallujah is bothering you a little too much to discuss reasonably.  I interpreted the event in and aroudn Fallujah, and you are attaacking me personally, and so was he.   Who do you think you are?  Need I remind you who was right the last time you had a tamper tantrum at me?

EDIT: You are lying in the post above, see ya, I'm not discussing with you.

You're realy a piece of work you know that?

You were right the last time we butted heads?

Now you've really got me laughing.

Keep up with your hysterics, and keep posting alarmist messages based off information from your oh so credible sources, everyone can see it for what it is.

[Warin 0]

Let's try to avoid a flame war, guys.

Schoeler and BN880, I realize it's an emotionally charged issue, but you two are on the edge of acceptable civility.  If you feel the need to continue, please do it by PM.

BTW..

He's baaaaaaaack....  

Good to see all of you

[Tovarish 0]

Schoeler, you must be having some bad days, IMHO neither Balshoiw or bn880 said anything to provoke a flame fest like this. The whole unpleasantness seems to stem from use of the word "retreat" - which granted, is not something that usually happens when you're winning, but is not in any way the same as the word "defeat". I don't see anything wrong with troops retreating when under fire so they can take more favourable positions and respond under their terms, but you seem to take the word "retreat" as if you were an adherent to the bushido code...Personally I would see what happened as a retreat too, you're free to disagree with me, call it a "withdrawl", same thing really - no need to bite my head off!

Anyways, sorry if I come across as trying to play forum peacekeeper, but while some of us disagree with this war, we're not all willing to stop at nothing to villify the U.S. like you seem to believe. I have a lot of issues with certain things the past and present governments of your country have done, but i do not see it as a Great Satan.

[Schoeler 0]

Tovarish, I understand there are many meanings and types of retreat, but the way in which the word was used implied defeat. It is plain from the language that was used that it was intended to insult and to start a fight. Flamebaiting begets firestorms.

Normally, I have a pretty even temper, but when I see people using events like the Marine withdrawal from Fallujah as a platform from which to launch thinly veiled attacks and insults at the Americans here or at the American people in general, I get pretty pissed. I don't see any reason for anyone here to hide what they are really trying to say in a poorly contrived and indirect attack.

The decision to withdraw the Marines was not made out of cowardice and it was not mandated by defeat. It was made to stop a lot of unecessary bloodshed and to approach the problem from a new, more peaceful angle. I don't care if you are pro-American, anti-American, pro-war, anti-war, whatever. There is no denying it was the right thing to do and if someone can't even admit to that much, then they are simply being an ass and looking to start a fight.

I am vehemently opposed to this war, have never concealed my feelings about that, and yet, I am not so narrow-minded or selfish or silly or just plain petty that I can't acknolwedge when a smart move was made. Some people are so anti-war or anti-American that they will seize every opportunity possible to criticize American decisions, whether or not the criticism was merited. Those people seem to argue and to insult no matter what the decision. First they argue one way, for example that the U.S. is too aggressive, then, when the U.S. takes on a more pacifist stance, they argue the other, that the U.S. is cowardly, or was defeated. That kind of tactic is underhanded, hypocritical, juvenile and ridiculuous. It is nothing more than a spiteful attempt to capitalize on any opportunity to heave venom and hatred on the American military, the American press, and the American people in general, and I won't stand idly by with my thumb up my ass and allow it to happen.

I will refrain from personal attacks from this point on, as they simply devolve into ugliness and illogical back and forth warfare rather than reasoned debate, but I will not hesitiate to call things the way I see them, and right now I see hypocrisy.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Some people are so anti-war or anti-American that they will seize every opportunity possible to criticize American decisions, whether or not the criticism was merited.  Those people seem to argue and to insult no matter what the decision.  First they argue one way, for example that the U.S. is too aggressive, then, when the U.S. takes on a more pacifist stance, they argue the other, that the U.S. is cowardly, or was defeated.  That kind of tactic is underhanded, hypocritical, juvenile and ridiculuous.  It is nothing more than a spiteful attempt to capitalize on any opportunity to heave venom and hatred on the American military, the American press, and the American people in general, and I won't stand idly by with my thumb up my ass and allow it to happen.

i could not have said it better.

[bn880 5]

Normally, I have a pretty even temper, but when I see people using events like the Marine withdrawal from Fallujah as a platform from which to launch thinly veiled attacks and insults at the Americans here or at the American people in general, I get pretty pissed. I don't see any reason for anyone here to hide what they are really trying to say in a poorly contrived and indirect attack.

The decision to withdraw the Marines was not made out of cowardice and it was not mandated by defeat. It was made to stop a lot of unecessary bloodshed and to approach the problem from a new, more peaceful angle. I don't care if you are pro-American, anti-American, pro-war, anti-war, whatever. There is no denying it was the right thing to do and if someone can't even admit to that much, then they are simply being an ass and looking to start a fight.

I hope this does it for you, you were clearly told to stop this kind of behaviour by Warin. I don't know what your major problem is lately, but I'm not going to take it.

[Schoeler 0]

Warin's warning was for both of us not to devolve into personal warfare. In the post you quoted I have refrained from personal attack and made a very valid, non-personal argument about my point of view. You don't have to take it if you don't want to, but you can't say I flamed you.

I have a right to argue my point of view. I have a right to point out behavior I find offensive, and I will exercise that right.

I dislike arguments that exploit world events for the purpose of spewing venom, especially when the venom is unwarranted. If you want to maintain peace on this board, then stop using this topic to elicit angry responses via indirect attacks on the American people.

I couldn't agree with you more that this war was a mistake. I couldn't agree more that the American people were mislead, that the Administration is corrupt, arrogant and dangerous to the world.

I cannot disagree more though when I see every opportunity exploited to heap criticism on America. Especially, when in this instance there was no cause for criticism. I don't deny you the right to criticize the administration, the military, American foreign policy, or even the American people, so long as that criticism is fair-minded and warranted. When it is made out of spite, is unfair in nature, designed to elicit anger or to insult, or simply a cheap attempt to cast aspersion, I will call attention to it.

[bn880 5]

No it was another personal attack, check what you replied to in Tovarish's post. I have filed several complaits about your behaviour.

[Akira 0]

No it was another personal attack, check what you replied to in Tovarish's post. I have filed several complaits about your behaviour.

You both were warned and I'll save the Moderators some breath and say it for them...

TAKE IT TO PM

[Schoeler 0]

No it was another personal attack, check what you replied to in Tovarish's post.  I have filed several complaits about your behaviour.

If it was personal, it was indirect. It's exactly the same tack you took when I found fault with you. Funny, its okay for you to do, but not for me. I also find it funny that you can see through the nature of that post, but not your own. If you want to continue this discussion, move it to pm. I'm getting tired of the back and forth.

[Tovarish 0]

Christ.....now I know what this guy felt like:

If you saw No Man's Land, you know what I mean....

[Akira 0]

Again...

TAKE IT TO PM

Before the Mods decide to give you both cooling off time via PR.

[Akira 0]

Christ.....now I know what this guy felt like:

img]http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/tomorrowreviews/nomansland_1.jpg[/img]

If you saw No Man's Land, you know what I mean....

lol

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

No that isn't true.  They did try to take the city but were overwhelmed on the outskirts as a result.

Can you prove it either way?  Nope, because statements from Coalition sources can not be trusted.

EDIT: I'll leave it at that.  

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts.

Ill leave it at that, lol.

I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition.

So let me get this straight.  You can use language guaranteed to incite a heated response by characterzing the Marine withdrawal as a retreat, which in english in case you aren't aware, suggests they were defeated and had to pull back rather than what actually happened.

If you consider the difference between "withdrawal" and "retreat" to be the difference of life and death, the difference between "play nice" and "play ugly", then I suggest you find yourself a good relaxation technique.

Getting annoyed over something as technical as that is simply absurd - I don't give a toss whether they put their tails in between their legs or just turned around and walked away - it is completely meaningless.

Watch your attitude mate, no matter what the reason, an outburst like this is not justifyable. You have been warned. Any further outbreaks will be punished - and this is aimed at both of you. There was no need to bait yourselves like this, MLF and bn880.

[MLF 0]

No that isn't true.  They did try to take the city but were overwhelmed on the outskirts as a result.

Can you prove it either way?  Nope, because statements from Coalition sources can not be trusted.

EDIT: I'll leave it at that.  

lol they have never actually tried a full offensive, i think we would have actually heard it about it, all they have recently done was secure a perimiter and do surgical strikes into the town, trying to pacify certain districts.

Ill leave it at that, lol.

I think you should keep your derogatory laugh to yourself, I am entitled to making the statements I made in this thread, and the only thing I may consider being funny is your belief in the statements of the coalition.

lol and ill keep on laughing at your rediculous statements, The Marines Have pulled back to a Withdrawn position they still surround Fallujah just from a further distance allowing the Iraqi Police force/army to seem like they are dealing with it and yes on certain occasions the marines have had there arse handed to them, No the marines have never Tried to actually take the City of Fallujah they have tried to contain the militia/uprising of locals if you consider going into the outskirts of iraq with hummers and a couple of abrams and blowing certain districts up then you need to re-evaluate your definitions.

o and you have a flaw in your argument, your basing it off the fact that im basing it solely off what the Coalition have said. But if you want to be a child about it and do not want to discuss this then fine you act like the child who says when playing football "My ball my rules, im right and if you don't agree im taking my ball home"

[Tovarish 0]

Wow, are the mods invisible today?

[Akira 0]

Wow, are the mods invisible today?

What are mods?