The Iraq thread 3

[ralphwiggum 6]

a few weeks ago, there were reports that US troops will make transition from current inside-out presence to outsied-in, i.e. stay away from major city and go in if needed basis.

[walker 0]

Hi Gollum1

Quote[/b] ]There was no sign of American forces in the town, which lies in an area known as the so-called Sunni Triangle - the heartland of the guerrilla campaign against the US-led occupation of Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3488149.stm

Aparently the US 4th Infantry pulled out weeks ago.

Aparently their strategy now is:

Quote[/b] ]No American forces could be seen in the battle. The U.S. command has said American troops could be quickly dispatched to trouble spots to help Iraqi forces as America hands over security to the Iraqis.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4268120/

They sent two Humvees which left very quickly.

Guess that covers it.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

a few weeks ago, there were reports that US troops will make transition from current inside-out presence to outsied-in, i.e. stay away from major city and go in if needed basis.

Hi RalphWiggum

And my assesment of that:

The Cities are No Go Areas for the US 4th Infantry.

Not their fault they are the wrong kind of unit for this job. They are a high tech assault division. You do not use fast moving tank and armoured divisions to hold ground. Tanks and IFVs do not do well in towns we all know that.

I will keep saying it 4 times more troops predominatly mud feet. Take control of the ground do not abdicate it to the enemy.

The insurgents are so happy there they are distributing DVDs of what they are up to and sending get out of town notices to the police and army.

Kind Regards Walker

[quicksand 0]

Read about the Fallujah attack.The resistance had all the time to attack the police,free the prisoners,attack another gouverment building,and make their exit unfollowed with no US troops in sight.

This strategy of staying out of the heat is an important sign that things aren`t going as well in Iraq as they want us to belive.Isolating themself creates a big opportunity for the resistance to gain foothold in Iraq.Meanwhile the Iraqi population are starting to distrust their occupiers more every day.

edit:to late...

[Balschoiw 0]

The attack lasted over an hour. It´s really funny no US forces showed up to help the freed Iraqis...

Quote[/b] ]The U.S. command has said American troops could be quickly dispatched to trouble spots to help Iraqi forces as America hands over security to the Iraqis.

No quick. No dispatch. Not even some helos or jets were seen over FALLUJAH. Shouldn´t have been to far from US forces as it is only 32 miles from Baghdad.

Well to be continued I´m afraid. Once guerillas recognize that US forces dig in and don´t move out for patrols they have a full go in Iraq.

Great work ! Not.

Another nice story from the US forces who bring freedom and democracy:

Drowned Iraqi 'was forced into river by five US soldiers'

Quote[/b] ]The soldiers then pointed their guns at the two men, Marwan alleged, and pushed them into the river. Marwan, who can swim, managed to reach a tree trunk. Zeidun did not get that far. His family did not find his body until 12 days later.

When they found the pair's abandoned truck, it and the goods inside had been crushed. The family has photographs of the damage. The truck looked as if it had been driven over by a heavy vehicle, and the family accusesthe Americans of deliberately driving an armoured vehicle over it, though there are no witnesses to support this.

It is by no means clear that Zeidun Fadhil was intended to die. It is possible he was the victim of an elaborate punishment designed to humiliate the two young men - a punishment that went horribly wrong. Marwan alleged the American soldiers were laughing as they pushed them into the river.

Great work ! Not. Some US soldiers really know how to make friends among Iraq´s population.

Another case that will be "investigated". Not.

I can´t hear the word "investigation" anymore when it comes to civillians killed in Iraq. Looks like they need 10 years for each one as not only a single investigation has been finished and the responsible ones punished.

Well, the leader is the best example

[miles teg 1]

Careful about making assumptions. We are not getting the full story. There may be very good reasons why US forces didn't get sent in. One good reason is that they may have ended up shooting up more Iraqi policemen then militants.

Also I did hear of one report that there was at least one blackhawk helicopter flying overhead but I didnt' hear if it was providing any type of fire support.

With that said, I don't think the problem was so much the training of the Iraqi police but rather that they were very poorly equipped and outmanned. Most of them did not have even basic body armor (which would have saved many of them from serious injury from RPG and hand grenade shrapnel) and they did not have any heavy weapons aside from a few PKM's.

Also it has been reported that the 3 dead attackers (from the large platoon size group that attacked the station) had Lebanese passports.

There was some idiot intelligence analyst on the news today that said, "These men could not possibly Saddam loyalists because they shouted "Allah Akbar" which Saddam's men would NEVER do." This guy is an idiot because "Allah Akbar" is perhaps the most common phrase in the Middle East. Even Christians in the region say it. He said because of that they HAD to be Al-Qaeda. Apparently this guy was absolutely clueless about the culture and religion there and also apparently didn't know that Lebanon has this little organization called HEZBOLLAH.

My own armchair analyst opinion from what I know of the attack is that it may have been either Hezbollah or former Hezbollah militants who carried out this attack. All the reports were that this attack was an EXTREMELY aggressive and professional assault that was well executed. That sounds very much like Hezbollah. In the combat photage I've seen of Hezbollah in action they are extremely professional and extremely aggressive. I have not seen the same level of professionalism in any other Middle Army.

If Hezbollah is sending platoon size assault teams into Iraq, the American soldiers are in for a world of pain because those guys will DEFINITELY give US troops a run for their money.

Just ask the Israelies. They are a tough, well trained, sneaky, and highly motivated opponent that I would argue are perhaps the elite of Middle Eastern military forces.

Another reason I think it is Hezbollah troops who carried out the attack is also because one policeman described how they used hand grenades during the assault. This is a classic Hezbollah tactic. Lots of hand grenades and RPG fire to stun the enemy followed by an extremely aggressive high-speed assault in which they kill or subdue the enemy at close quarters.

So at any rate, the problem I think is not that the policeman were poorly trained, but just that they were poorly equipped and outnumbered. US troops using the same equipment and facing the same odds would have likely suffered a similar fate without air support But sadly the US does not seem interested in heavly arming the Iraqi police and military with up-armored APC's (like the BTR-80's with RPG-proof slat armor) along with under-barrel grenade launchers for their AK-47's along with RPG-7's and specially trained sniper units that can provide overwatch and counter-sniper fire.

Without better equipment the Iraqi military and police force will be outgunned by well trained and heavily armed foreign mujahadin fighters. They will simply face similar defeats and the US Army will be forced to setup bases and checkpoints again within the city.

Apparently from what I understand their simply is no money for upgrading the Iraqi policeforce and Army, so we're pretty much screwed.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

This is a very worrying development. As long as the rebels were mostly attacking US troops, the situation was resolvable. It had little impact on the possible future of Iraq. The attacks on the new military and police is however a completely new ball game. This could seriously hurt all rebuilding efforts, especially the political ones. While it won't be gaining support for the rebels, it will still generate popular resentment towards the US for not providing basic security.

And the US troops have so far showed that while they are good at defending themselves, they suck at protecting the Iraqis. And that's hardly a surprise as they are very careful in preventing own casualties. The cost of that strategy is that the job won't get done.

This is a general post-Vietnam problem of the US military. I've posted my own experiences earlier, so no point in repeating it, but I absolutely agree that the US troops suffer to a degree of bunker-mentality. This is guerilla warfare where technological advantages, heavy tanks and helicopters mean very little. You have to get dirty and there is no way of avoiding casualties. The US can win this because of a superiority in numbers, but they will have to be ready to make much larger sacrifices than they are now. Otherwise they'll just stay safe in their bases while the rebels shred Iraq to pieces.

[miles teg 1]

Yup, I agree.... that's why we need UN targets...uh sorry, I mean peacekeepers.

Other countries in exchange for hard cash I'm sure won't be as squeemish about losing troops. Actually the ones who really should do their part and contribute troops I think are the Chinese. They never seem to do crap for peace keeping missions. They're never too squeemish about troop losses so they should contribute.

Of coarse, their idea of crowd control is shooting everyone and rolling over them with tanks so maybe that's a bad idea.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

USA has excluded UN forces on their own by going in without UN approval. Simple as that.

We all could lean back and watch the "coaltion of willing" go down as they are right now but then again it´s the iraqui population we have to protect from whoever. I don´t exclude coalition forces. It looks like Iraq´s poplulation has to be protected from them also.

The UN will not send in troops. That´s what G.W and Tony Blured prevented by their way of acting.

From a human point it´s shit but the coaltion has caused that. Not the UN.

Now deal with your responsibillities and actually try to fulfill something of the TBA and TBA2 proposals.

The UN troops are not willing to clean up the mess coaltion forces caused.

Not this time.

I´d rather go to Novosibirsk than to Iraq. It´s not my duty to sort out any conflict that some betrayal leaders caused.

You voted for them, you supported them you have to take the consequences even if that means a lot of coalition victims. Not my problem. It´s not like we hadn´t warned you.

[bucket man 2]

Hezbollah are almost only arab force ever to taste victory over Israel. They surely know how to cause troubles to US soldiers and iraqi police.

[MSpencer 0]

Coalition Forces didn't cause this problem, Bush did. So did Blair.

The CIA is all behind this, and anyways, if you read some stuff on this site, www.freedomfiles.org, you'll start to become a conspiracy theorist.

Happened to me on the Pentagon. The CIA is all behind it, and that is why so many have died, Iraqis and Coalition.

[miles teg 1]

Dude, plenty of CIA people were releasing reports warning against this war. It was most definitely not the CIA. To me its as clear as day that the Bush administration greatly exaggerated the intelligence reports coming from the CIA.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[MSpencer 0]

It is impossible to corrupt an entire branch. It's almost impossible to corrupt something the size of a platoon, even a squad is hard.

We're talking mid-level CIA officials who handle it before it goes to Tenet.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The CIA is all behind it, and that is why so many have died, Iraqis and Coalition.

No. It´s not the CIA. Why should they have interest in starting a war against Iraq ? What would be their benefit ?

It´s the TBA that has started the war and troops in Iraq don´t do an adequate job to establish security and "Freedom".

They are digging in just like they did in Afghanistan.

Maybe "Al Hurrey" the new US financed news channel in Iraq will bring thruth to Iraq´s people  

Hans Blix Calls Bush and Blair 'Salesmen'

Quote[/b] ]The weapons expert also sharply criticized Washington for using what he called inaccurate intelligence concerning an alleged deal between Iraq and Niger to bolster Baghdad's nuclear capability, calling it "scandalous."

While Blair wants to break apart the BBC to silence resistance. "It´s either with us or against us."

That´s a disgusting developement, directing towards dictatorship. Yes read it from my lips: DICTATORSHIP

Blair govt mulls BBC break-up

No chance of getting him into the Tower of London for some funny torturing ?  

And finally :

Losing Hearts and Minds in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]It was quickly clear from his body language and his curt responses, however, that he was in no way disposed to listen to these lawyers. But I was shocked when some minutes later, he became particularly irritated and, turning to us, blurted out without preface or explanation: "You need to understand that these people are Muslim, and their values are just different from Judeo-Christian values. They aren't for doing things for other people like we are; they're only out for themselves."

Interesting read about the behaviour of Iraq´s occupiers  

Quote[/b] ]

At 4 a.m. that morning, Sassaman's men had staged a raid in Abu Hishma, a town over ten miles from the base. (It was the same town that Sassaman had previously ordered encircled with razor wire to pressure inhabitants into giving information about the insurgents.) Perhaps a hundred soldiers in fifteen to twenty vehicles entered the town, surrounded Mohaned's father's house, broke down the door, and smashed some of the family's belongings. They took Mohaned and his five brothers at gunpoint out to the yard, handcuffed them, put hoods on their heads, had them sit in the rain while the house was searched, and then carted them off to the base.

This reminds me more of GESTAPO methods then "peacekeeping" ones.

Quote[/b] ]"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them."

Nate Sassaman Colonel of the US army operating in Iraq.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This reminds me more of GESTAPO methods then "peacekeeping" ones.

Say it with me now: 'counter-insurgency'.

[MSpencer 0]

And who is Sassaman? I doubt this actually occurred. People falsify stuff, and there was probably just cause.

You cannot single out all Coalition and US troops in Iraq, and call them murderers or the like, because it's a small portion who do things like that. I take offense to that, personally, and I believe anyone who generalizes the US and Coalition (the coalition is non-existant, 9/10 of forces are all US) troops as mass murderers or criminals should be ashamed, considering most of it is lies.

(PS, you're on my s***list. )

[Balschoiw 0]

Make your homeworks, go Google and search for Nate Sassaman.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt this actually occurred.

Go google again.

Quote[/b] ]You cannot single out all Coalition and US troops in Iraq, and call them murderers or the like, because it's a small portion who do things like that.

I didn´t and I won´t let you put that in my mouth.

Quote[/b] ]troops as mass murderers or criminals should be ashamed, considering most of it is lies

Did I call them mass murderers ? No.

Did I say there were criminal acts against Iraq population done by US forces. Yes. There´s plenty of proof for that. Again go Google. Lies ? Hardly.

Quote[/b] ](PS, you're on my s***list. )

So ? Does my life change to the dark side now ? Certainly not. If you take things personally you don´t have an idea about make your way. I´m not interested in such persons anyway.

[walker 0]

Hi MSpencer et al.

I draw your attention to this diagram of Intelligence flows under TBA

TBA arranged for The Office of Special Plans, Rumsfeld's Amateur Private Secret Service to Doctor intelligence before it reached the presidents ear. It is called plausable deniability. And it would be plausable except for one thing; TBA set up The Office of Special Plans and staffed it with their people.

Who are the The Office of Special Plans?

Most of the people in The Office of Special Plans are political apointees without an intelligence background.

They are the people who assesed the intelligence. They are the people who wrote the reports that handed the US false intelligence.

They are the people who demanded the CIA produce every rumour, half truth and even proven lie they had heard.

They are the people who then passed this doctored intelligence on to TBA. Just the way that TBA wanted it.

There was no intelligence failure!

It was TBA deliberately poluting their own intelligence stream.

As evidence.

I place before you the report of Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski:

http://www.amconmag.com/12_1_03/feature.html<--Read this Please note the article is three pages long, links to other parts are in the top and bottom of the pages.

She is a recently retired from the U.S. Air Force. Her final posting was as an analyst at the Pentagon. She was in The White House and saw it happening.

She witnessed TBA feeding itself the rumour, half truth and even proven lies that they used to take the coalition into a costly war.

It is the Key to why there are now 641 coalition and tens of thousands of inocent Iraqis dead, and why that death toll continues to rise.

We owe it to those thousdands of dead, the tens of thousands of wounded, and their families, to make sure everyone knows about this.

Kind Regards Walker

[Pipski 0]

Quote[/b] ]It´s the TBA that has started the war

Quote[/b] ]The CIA is all behind this

Hmm, aren't we forgetting the `reverse vampires'?

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]It´s the TBA that has started the war

Quote[/b] ]The CIA is all behind this

Hmm, aren't we forgetting the `reverse vampires'?  

Hi all

Pipski has a point.

He just has not decided what it is yet.

[miles teg 1]

@ Feb. 16 2004,00:25)]

This reminds me more of GESTAPO methods then "peacekeeping" ones.

Say it with me now: 'counter-insurgency'.

Tex, it's called very poorly done counter-insurgency.

Certainly raids are needed sometimes, but not smashing up people's houses and terrifying them and then arresting them even when you don't find anything in their house. God only knows how many innocent people are being held without trial in prisons in Iraq.

But also who knows what became of some of these people arrested. But they need to be a bit more professional and possibly give some small monetary compensation and an official apology in writing (in English and Arabic) to some of these people wrongfully arrested. These things are not hard to do

The problem in Iraq is that you have some units doing good counter-insurgency work, and others doing very sloppy COIN operations.

There doesn't seem to be anyone providing adequate oversight as far as adequately investigating abuses.

There are many reasons for this most likely (such as that its dangerous to investigate the Iraqi side of the story), but its not impossible.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[walker 0]

Hi all

I heard there is a BIG battle going on at a US base about halfway between Falujha and the Syrian border aparently large amounts of armour involved. Does any one have a link?

I saw a report with tanks firing on a british channel. Obviously it is an ongoing mission so there seems to be a general news blackout.

Anyone know the name of the town (I think it began with an "S" )

Kind Regards Walker

[WhoCares 0]

Tex, it's called very poorly done counter-insurgency.  

Certainly raids are needed sometimes, but not smashing up people's houses and terrifying them and then arresting them even when you don't find anything in their house.

...

Most likely, that's about what the israeli c-i specialists taught them...

[theavonlady 2]

I saw a report with tanks firing on a british channel.

Another war with France?!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

all this "gestapo methods" nonesense goes a bit too far in my eyes. Most of you forgets the human side of the whole issue.

Assume the following. A wednesday morning, more than a year ago, Rumself finds a file on his table and screens through it. It is the monthly CIA report on Saddams WMD program. As always nothing new but Rumsfeld since 9/11 has learnt that the enemies need to be observed a bit better. He reads the first lines skips the middle part (nothing new) and then comes to the conclusion and the final threat-assessment. While reading it, he takes the phone: "Jenny, put me through to Tennet, be so kind!" he takes off his reading glasses

..."oh george, morning, you gotta screen this stuff better for me. This morning as every week I get your files with 30-40 pages, most of it is old dust, what I realy need is 2-3 page filtered assessment from your side, you personally."

"But if I may say so it is not about personal assessment, I am not directly a politician, my task and the one of the CIA is to provide objective information. Mr Rumsfeld I dont feel in the right position to streamline and shape this information so it gives only 1 conclusion."

"No George, since 9/11 we cant hide ourselves behind the obligation of objectivity. That objectivity made us believe that morning that the world would be safe, but objectively a few hours later 3000 americans were dead. I am not discussing that with you. Do you think... sorry...do you read in your lines that Iraq is a thread.?"

"Well it could and it couldnt"

"George, so it could"

"yes, Ms Rumsfeld. Saddam would have the means and the time available to store WMD, and he is the right person to do so"

"why would he do so, Mr Tennet?"

"WMD in muslim countries is like cattle with long horns. Strategically they are of little use, but for the reputation they are great".

"Mr Tennet, if that what you just said doesnt make you come to the conclusion that Saddam is a threat then you have no instincts"

"Sir the CIA is not run by animals. Dont get me wrong but we are obliged to stick to facts, politicians like you must be able to get from us better information than you get from the press"

"Mr. Tennet, to speak openly: at the moment I get only old dust from you. Considering the financial input and the significance of Mr. Saddam I must say you are doing a ridiculous job. I dont know how often I have read those 30 pages. Nothing new. So get me a clear report, with clear hints and a clear assessment on my table by tomorrow morning. Is that okay for you Mr. Tennet!"

"Of course Mr. Rumsfeld, but please be advised that any intepretation of the little information available might be wrong"

"George, Saddam is a threat, with or without your report. He has been in the past and hasnt turned into an angel since then. When the next 9/11 comes up do you want to say, that you werent so sure about the threat of another terorist attack, or would you rather admit that whether Saddam had or had not WMD wasnt so sure? Stay objective but take a decision Mr. Tennet."

"(laughs) Mr. Rumsfeld, that is your job. Dont push me into that corner. In both cases I would say that the information available werent sufficient, and I would also probably accuse the government of not having given us enough financial resources"

"and you say you are no politician George?"

"okay, by tomorrow you get your 2 page report"

"yes?"

"Yes, good bye Mr. Rumsfeld"