State of the union address, 2004

[toadlife 3]

Basically it goes like this:

1. Domestic cultural products (movies, music, books) of country X are replaced by cheaper, better US products which get a complete monopoly.

2. The US products promote American ideologies and values and not to forget life-style (indirect product placement)

3. All the happy Xoninas get inspired by the only flavour of culture and values they are getting and go forth and purchase US products.

And quite soon X has become a mini-America losing all its unique cultural values and becoming yet another member of the All American Franchise. It's a very impressive virus-maneuver as the people of other countries are instrumental in furthering the destruction of their own culture.

Your obsession with protecting the world from our culture seems at best misguided and at the very worst flat-out rascist.

The idea that through trade, the world will become one big mini-america is just plain wrong. In the United States alone, there are more uniqe cultures than you can shake a stick at.

Japan's current government was pretty much created by the United States, yet their cultural values are not identical to ours.

[denoir 0]

As for the ones from Canada, again it's the economy. Lot's come down from British Columbia (It's initials stand for "Bring Cash", because everything costs a frikken fortune) - not becuase it's not a beautifull area, but because the economy sucks and there are NO jobs. Marijuana is Canada's biggest industry. Not exactly a stable career choice. I've been up to Canada several times. It's a very nice place, but I can see why some people choose to migrate south.

To this and to the next segment the statistics become very relevant. Canada has a higher immigration rate than USA. This would kind of put a dent on your theory whichever interpretation you choose. Either people from USA are moving to Canada or people from the rest of the world are rather moving there than the US.

Quote[/b] ]Those immigration statistics you quote miss the point. It's easy (financially) to move from Iraq to Qatar or Kuwait, or from Poland to Germany, but moving to the U.S. is not so easy if your not from Mexico. The point is, people who live in third world countries want to move to industrialized countries. Weather they move to Britain, German, Sweden, France or the U.S., the fact remains that they don't like where they are coming from.

You are quite wrong there. In Europe the immigration between the countries are very small. People take jobs in other European countries, but only as temporary residents. And it's not because they don't like where they are coming from but because they got a specific job somewhere. We have a common job market and moving to another European country to take a job is little different from for instace moving from one state to another in the US. Personally I plan at least to spend a year or two in France, possibly Spain. But I'm not planning in any way of moving there. And I have no complaints against Sweden.

The immigration to European countries is from outside of Europe. There is an expression - "Fortress Europa" - that describes the difficulty of getting into the EU as a non-European immigrant. Quite more difficult than taking a walk across the border in Mexico.

And again, Canada is a good counter example. It's only direct neighbour is the US and it surpasses you in migration rate.

Quote[/b] ]If you're economy can't compete with American goods, then you should make better goods. if you make better good and you still can't compete, then slap some (more) trade tariffs on us.

Trade tariffs are not an option for the third world. They get a package deal of political approval, aid, loans and promise to spend the money on US products.

Quote[/b] ]The ratio of what? Currently we have a 30 billion dollar trade deficit, and that's extremely low compared to past years. In 1998 I think it was around 200 Billion. Are you talking about ratios with specific countries?

I mentioned it earlier, the deficit is not due to foreign products that you are importing, but natural resources such as oil. For that there is a world market that can't be quite as easily exploited as desperate third world countries.

Quote[/b] ]Yet another not-so-suttle insult. You win. My ego is no match for yours.

Subtle is my middle name. And I'm surprised that you even have to say anything about my ego that is as large as moominpappa's hat (inexpressibly large). I wasn't however commenting on your personal ego, but your national ego - the overblown hubris which has gone unmatched since the village idiot of Yorkshire in 1557 prononced him self head of the Catholic church and arch-duke of Saturn.

What I'm trying to say is that while you think USA is truly the best place on Earth, there are those who would disagree. Strongly.

Another point is that people from different cultures want different things in life. I don't think that you would be happier in Nigeria than you are in the US. The Nigerians are however obviously happy with their way of life.

As of your examples of immigrants you know, have you ever considered that they moved to the US because it fit their personal ideals and not perhaps the general ideals of their original culture?

[denoir 0]

Your obsession with protecting the world from our culture seems at  best misguided and at the very worst flat-out rascist.

I'd protect the world from any culture that has the ambition of running over other cultures. The scary thing is that you're actually convinced that you're doing them a favour. History is repeating itself. It's the exactly same mentality that European missionaries forced anybody they met to convert to Christianity. They were also convinced that they were doing them a big favour.

Quote[/b] ]The idea that through trade, the world will become one big mini-america is just plain wrong. In the United States alone, there are more uniqe cultures than you can shake a stick at.

Yeah within a comfy blanket of American values. And it's not throught trade in general, but through one-sided trade. America exports a lot of its culture and core ideals, but imports very little. Some is recieved through immigrants, but most of variations are slight. For national goals and ideals most immigrants seem to assimilate the US values.

Quote[/b] ]Japan's current government was pretty much created by the United States, yet their cultural values are not identical to ours.

Japan managed to escape by slapping insanely high tariffs on US products. Also their highly traditional society softened the blow.

If you want examples of complete Americanization, take a look at Singapore and to a slightly lesser extent South Korea. For all the relevant parts Singapore could be the 51:st state. They've completely suppressed all their traditions and cultures in favour of a 100% American libertarian individualist consumer society.

I was in Singapore a couple of years ago on vacation visiting a friend. All I can say is that it's scary. They are more American than Americans. If you take the most trivial, the most shallow interpretation of the values of a stereo-typed parody of an American then you get the values that young people in Singapore have. It's really scary. You can really see that their culture has been entirely hollowed out leaving a McCulture shell. I really don't want anybody to end up like Singapore  

[toadlife 3]

To this and to the next segment the statistics become very relevant. Canada has a higher immigration rate than USA. This would kind of put a dent on your theory whichever interpretation you choose. Either people from USA are moving to Canada or people from the rest of the world are rather moving there than the US.

I believe (no, I don't have statistics) that most of the people the emmigrate to Canda are from Asia. I don't feel like looking it up though. I've never met, or heard of someone moving from the U.S. to Canada, though I'm sure it happens.

Quote[/b] ]You are quite wrong there. In Europe the immigration between the countries are very small.

Germany was high on the list. I curious as to where are all of the people that immigrate to Germany come from.

Quote[/b] ]

The immigration to European countries is from outside of Europe. There is an expression - "Fortress Europa" - that describes the difficulty of getting into the EU as a non-European immigrant. Quite more difficult than taking a walk across the border in Mexico.

Just as getting into the U.S. is a tad bit harder for non-mexicans at least from a cost standpoint.

Quote[/b] ]And again, Canada is a good counter example. It's only direct neighbour is the US and it surpasses you in migration rate.

But how do their immigration policies compare with the Unites States'? Just because they move to Canada doesn't necessarily mean it was their first choice.

Quote[/b] ]As of your examples of immigrants you know, have you ever considered that they moved to the US because it fit their personal ideals and not perhaps the general ideals of their original culture?

They move here, and to other developed countries for the opportunity. If the general ideals of their culture shun the pursuit of success, freedom, and properity then yes I suppose they might be mavericks.

[Pipski 0]

Germany was high on the list. I curious as to where are all of the people that immigrate to Germany come from.

In the 80s and 90s many came from Turkey (correct me if I'm wrong, someone). Don't know if that's still the case since the turn of the century They are known as Gastarbeiter(?) (guest workers) and didn't have full citizen status. This is why the German neo-Nazis have such a bug up their ass about Turks.

[turms 0]

Im getting sick people here saying USA represents freedom.

USA is making fun of all the basic freedoms by new terrorist

laws. Guilty until proven innocent is more like this day.

Why is USA more "the land of the free" by your definition, than any other western

country? Only "right" that occures in my mind is the right to bear arms. Hell why not right to arm bears?

"freedom is just a nother word, for nothing left to lose"

"

EDIT; just woke up

[toadlife 3]

It's the exactly same mentality that European missionaries forced anybody they met to convert to Christianity. They were also convinced that they were doing them a big favour.

I think you're equating a side effect of global trade to a vast American conspiracy to convert the entire world into clones.

Yeah within a comfy blanket of American values. And it's not throught trade in general, but through one-sided trade. America exports a lot of its culture and core ideals, but imports very little. Some is recieved through immigrants, but most of variations are slight. For national goals and ideals most immigrants seem to assimilate the US values.

It ends up getting exported because we want to make money, not because we care if people in Singapore act like Americans.

Quote[/b] ]If you want examples of complete Americanization, take a look at Singapore and to a slightly lesser extent South Korea. For all the relevant parts Singapore could be the 51:st state. They've completely suppressed all their traditions and cultures in favour of a 100% American libertarian individualist consumer society.

It's a problem in your mind, becuase you dislike American Ideals. Did you ask the people of Singapore if they cared? I bet they don't.

Quote[/b] ]I really don't want anybody to end up like Singapore

Why not ask them how they want to end up instead of telling them how they shouldn't end up? If they want to throw away their culture and become CC's of American's it's their decision.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]In the 80s and 90s many came from Turkey (correct me if I'm wrong, someone). Don't know if that's still the case since the turn of the century They are known as Gastarbeiter(?) (guest workers) and didn't have full citizen status. This is why the German neo-Nazis have such a bug up their ass about Turks.

Not completely right. Foreign male people were needed in germany to rebuild the country after the war. Most of the german people at working age were killed or imprisoned by allied forces, so germany had a big lack of manpower that itme. With germany going up again there was lots of manpower needed. So greeks, italians and turkish people were hired. They had no well paid jobs in their countries so they came to us. First the were called "Gastarbeiter". Now their status has changed. They can choose to have german citizenship or stick to their old one or can have both at a time. This is bound to certain requirenments of course.

We have a community of 100.000 yewish people again.

A lot of russian germans , deported after WW2 returned to germany over the last years. Then we have people seeking for shelter or political asylum.

Here are some numbers:

At the moment we have 200.000 people migrating to germany.

This is a rate of 0.25 percent rate compared to 82.000.000 germans.

During the early and late 90´s we had a rate of 400.000 per year only staged by the "Spätaussiedler", people who were forced from russia and the allies to live offside german territory after WW2. Deportation may ring a bell.

Additionally we have 300.000 people who come to work in germany from abroad but don´t stay forever. They make some money and head home.

Germany is still number 1 when it comes to refugees. It has a good reputation among refugees. Maybe that´s why they come

You know, you throw bombs on Iraq and we shelter the wounded and refugees.

That´s the way it is over here. Or are wounded civillians and children taken to the USA for medical treatment ?

Quote[/b] ]This is why the German neo-Nazis have such a bug up their ass about Turks.

No. That´s too simple. And german neo- nazis more often attack asians or people from africa than they attack turks.

Right now we have a problems with :

russians - albanians - romanians - polish people and all the organized criminality established in germany by former russian citizens.

Skinheads primary goal still is to fight zionism and any foreign person.

They are indeed a dying club as the numbers of skinheads (remember to keep in mind that original skinheads have nothing to do with racism) is decreasing since west and east germany grow together.

A lot of youths from east germany didnt get jobs and were completely confused when the wall went down and they experienced that foreign people are a part of every day life.

They searched for someone guilty for their own confusion and generalized foreigners to be the target.

Well times change and as they found out that attacks on foreigners are put to court on a high level and severe punishment comes ahead they lost more and more members all over the years.

Neo - Nazis are a dying race in germany while in the UK and USA they have a terrifying growth and fanclub.

Quote[/b] ]I really don't want anybody to end up like Singapore

Singapore is a bad example imo.

Singapore has a tradition of melting different ethnics together. The only way this could be achieved at that time was to introduce harsh punishment and strict regulations for all citizens.

Try to buy a car in singapore and you see what I´m talking about.

Besides that there are public executions almost weekly Singapore is a nice place to stay at. Have been there several times and I´m still a fan. Will do a stopover this march when I go to Indonesia.

Singapore is clean, sterile sometimes has an absolute weird system of law a very rude code of detention compared to the western orientation and influence in town. But it´s people are really multinational and very kind. At least that´s what I experienced.

I remember some things that happened to me in Singapore.

- got lost in former red light district now transformed to shopping centre and outdoor diners. I was standing at road with map (don´t do this in florida or you get checked by the local gangs) and a guy came up to me. He asked to help me in finding the way as it was pretty late and the roads were not crowded in this district. He didn´t speek good english but were able to communicate. He came from India as a lot of people in singapore do. He was no big help but was trying to help without financial interests.

- After this a restaurant clerk who had noticed our talk went up to me and invited me to the restaurant. Not like the ones you know from asia trips, but a personal invitation. He showed me the kitchen, showed me how foods prepared and all of the people were very open and entertaining.

- We had a funny night with lots of free beer some deliciouse food and I got a farewell present when I left them after we watched a soccer match alltogether with big emotions

I got a "Bintang" transistor radio from the restaurant manager when I left them.

- These things happened all the time when I´ve been to singapore. If you visit a public toilet and the paper is out and a peasant sees that there is no paper and you look a bit helpless they just give you some of their private paper they always seem to have with them

- A "personal subway guide" who sees that you don´t know Singapore subway or bus system well accompanied us to our destination and refused to take any money for the private sightseeing it ended in.

Singapore is great to visit. It has no grown identity but that´s related to the way Singapore was created. I don´t want to live there but a tourist in Singapore has a great life.

[killagee 0]

To throw some petrol in the Fire...

I have toured all over the world working....USA, Canada, Europe, South East Asia, South Pacific, Australia etc...

I have only ever been physicaly assaulted by a stranger once... In Texas

I have only ever been shot at once... In florida

I have only ever been detained by the police for 2 days with no charges ever being laid once... New York City

I have only ever been robbed by a taxi driver once... New York city

I have only ever seen people standing around or walking past as a man has a heart attack once... L.A.

In Indonesia I had dinner on the farm where on of the stage techs lived. His father's crops of Soy beans had to be sold for a minimum of $1500 Rupiah (50cents US ish) per KG, in order for his family to survive. At the market where his crops were sold, Surplus US Soy (exported as part of the US's "Aid") could be bought for $800 Rupiah

This is very common throughout the developing world, where farmers just cannot compete against the subsidised imports from the US and the EU. Hence this is why people starve on fertile land...

At the same time as the US adds import tarrifs to imports to the US, they make (and carry out) economic threats against those who dont "open up" their markets to "free-trade with the US".

So far the main impact that "free trade" has had on those who were foolish enough to enter into this with the US has been an influx of US companies exploiting the low wages, and added pressure to govts to privatise their government departments.

This has had very negetive effects for the citizens of both the US and thier prey.

Sorry. Off Topic now...

I have only ever seen a woman "shotgun" an entire bottle of vodka without throwing up once... Sydney (oh well!)

Here's to the SEPERATION of CORPORATIONS and the STATE!

[theavonlady 2]

I have only ever been physicaly assaulted by a stranger once... In Texas

I have only ever been shot at once... In florida

I have only ever been detained by the police for 2 days with no charges ever being laid once... New York City

I have only ever been robbed by a taxi driver once... New York city

I have only ever seen people standing around or walking past as a man has a heart attack once... L.A.

Wow! In all my years growing up in the US, I was never so lucky!

/edit: do you need to buy a news rabbit's foot?

[killagee 0]

I have only ever been physicaly assaulted by a stranger once... In Texas

I have only ever been shot at once... In florida

I have only ever been detained by the police for 2 days with no charges ever being laid once... New York City

I have only ever been robbed by a taxi driver once... New York city

I have only ever seen people standing around or walking past as a man has a heart attack once... L.A.

Wow! In all my years growing up in the US, I was never so lucky!

/edit: do you need to buy a news rabbit's foot?

LOL! Na, I think the problem is that the Entertainment industry attracts attention. Apart from the guy having the heart attack all the rest were while I was working. I spend most of my day surrounded by drunken "munters" who act like 11 year olds. It seems that Violent Drinking Culture is worse in the US, Australia and ( i am loathe to admit) New Zealand. I have never seen it elsewhere.

The police refused to give my passport back, which, apart from being illegal, cost me $250 to replace in a hurry.

Actually there is a massive organised crime syndicate in the US Music Production industry, who work under the facade of the "Teamsters" union... Check out the Frank Zappa song '$50000 Sandwich' and all will become clear...

[theavonlady 2]

It seems that Violent Drinking Culture is worse in the US, Australia and ( i am loathe to admit) New Zealand.

You can thank the inventor of kiwi wine for that!

[toadlife 3]

I have only ever been physicaly assaulted by a stranger once... In Texas

I have only ever been shot at once... In florida

I have only ever been detained by the police for 2 days with no charges ever being laid once... New York City

I have only ever been robbed by a taxi driver once... New York city

I have only ever seen people standing around or walking past as a man has a heart attack once... L.A.

Wow.

Note to self: Stay away from killagee during electrical storms, heavy rains, and when near the foot of snow capped mountains.

Quote[/b] ]

I have only ever seen a woman "shotgun" an entire bottle of vodka without throwing up once... Sydney (oh well!)

And the problem with this waaaas?

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

I have only ever seen a woman "shotgun" an entire bottle of vodka without throwing up once... Sydney (oh well!)

And the problem with this waaaas?  

She didn't open the bottle cap!

[denoir 0]

It's the exactly same mentality that European missionaries forced anybody they met to convert to Christianity. They were also convinced that they were doing them a big favour.

I think you're equating a side effect of global trade to a vast American conspiracy to convert the entire world into clones.

It's not a conspirarcy, but it is the effect of an uneven global trade, yes. As it is America does not mind at it at all. On the contrary, as you've expressed, you are convinced that you're helping the poor bastards, just like the missionaries were convinced that they were helping the poor heathens by converting them to Christianity.

And my point, which you aren't capable or willing to understand is that not everybody wants to become like America.

Quote[/b] ]It ends up getting exported because we want to make money, not because we care if people in Singapore act like Americans.

It's both. And the more they act like Americans, the more mony you'll get from them buying your products.

Until that point it's just irresponsible economic exploitation. The real problem is however that you think that your system is superior to any other and feel it's your duty to convert the world to it.

Quote[/b] ]

It's a problem in your mind, becuase you dislike American Ideals.

I don't dislike American ideals at all. I'm European and share 90% of those ideals. What I dislike is the rape of other cultures to superimpose yours.

Quote[/b] ]

Did you ask the people of Singapore if they cared? I bet they don't.

If they cared that their culture and traditions have been blown away? Let's see. Assume that the Soviet union had won the cold war and become the world's number one cultural exporter. Now imagine all US domestic TV being replaced with Soviet programmes. All the popular shows are Soviet and all the people learn sooner or later to speak Russian and embrace Soviet culture. Soon things like Thanksgiving, Christmas and the Superbowl are replaced by more Soviet traditions, such as "Lenin's day", "Stalin's day" etc

Would you dislike that? Or would you object? (You'd probably be singing "hail to the comrades", but from your current perspective)

Quote[/b] ]Why not ask them how they want to end up instead of telling them how they shouldn't end up? If they want to throw away their culture and become CC's of American's it's their decision.

That's the point -they don't have a choice. Their domestic cultural production has been run over by the gargantuan US cultural production.

[OmniMax 0]

Yes, I'd like that. Free vodka for everyone.

Jokes aside, some people whom have an american culture find it hard to swallow this concept. It's the one-eyed growing up thing, read example:

Quote[/b] ]

American Guy: "Heh, just like Happy Days, you can hit a jukebox and make it play a song."

Foreign Guy: "What the hell is Happy Days?"

American Guy: "Holy Naked Power Rangers, batman! He doesn't know what Happy Days is!@?!"

Foreign Guy: "Power Rangers???"

American Guy: "You're crazy."

The same thing here when people from the south or north come to New Jersey, they don't know what a Philly Cheesesteak is. (Philadelphia Cheesesteak, that is.)

So it's hard for some people to empathize with your arguement, although correct, Denoir.

Since some people know of no other way, they keep ploughing through with their own. Because that is how they were taught and brought to know.

[denoir 0]

Yepp, and it's not just America - far from it. Europe did it for centuries.

So what's bad about with one culture replacing another? Per se nothing. The thing is that those that get a foreign culture imposed don't get a vote. They get the culture itself, but no opportunity of discussing its contents. There is little feedback; you eat what you are served. So in the end you have a system that influnces billions while only a few hundred million get to make the decisions. And that's a recepie for disaster as sooner or later people will get fed up by following the ideals of others.

Furthermore given that half of those few hundred million agree with Bush and his merry men have been doing for the past few years while billions in the world don't, it shows that there are considerable differences of opinion. The majority of people in the world don't share Bush's vision of it and yet they can only helplessly see how their own culture is being impregnated by those values that they oppose. Countries around the world get changed according to an American view of the world, contribute to America's economic well-being and they don't get to say anything about it. Taxation without representation, so to say.

Personally, I believe that some middle way of globalization is possible and desirable. I'm fairly certain that people can find some common ground without unconditionally accepting the terms of the dominating culture.

Anyway, this discussion started with NavyEEL asking why so many people criticise America. The answer is quite simple. The rest of the world is being affected by US policy, culture and values without having a say about it. People see their traditions and values being replaced by a bland self-replicating export version of a foreign culture so that US companies can make more cash. And that makes people unhappy.

[ralphwiggum 6]

The same thing here when people from the south or north come to New Jersey, they don't know what a Philly Cheesesteak is. (Philadelphia Cheesesteak, that is.)

denoir

Quote[/b] ]There is a very good reason and that's because there can't be such a thing as a bloody European film. We have 12 different languages in the EU and there will be 10 more. These are 22 different markets and 22 different flavours of movies. It doesn't work both ways since not everybody speaks Latvian. The US is one big market where you can raise a lot of cash to make a movie. In the EU there are 22 small markets where you can't raise a lot of cash and the movie won't have too much appeal outside the specific group that speaks the language.

how about a nice film with Esperanto?

seriously, lack of creativity is what europeans lack. or actually dumbing down of one. make a movie that sells on broader market.

and it just because we have a big market and can afford to make high cost films doesn't mean that we have to restraint ourselves. life is not fair too. get used to it. there is a market called US, and they watch US films, and it happens to be big. so they make movie that fits the demographic which conviniently fits a good portion of world population.

you are 180cm, i'm 173cm. does that mean we have to walk on knees so a group of 160cm tall people doesn't have to adjust their visual level? heck no. in basketball, just becuase some players are well over 200cm doesn't eman they have to be handicapped. Shaq and Fisher both play the game under same rules. but shaq gets more attention cause he has heavier burden.

Quote[/b] ]If you want examples of complete Americanization, take a look at Singapore and to a slightly lesser extent South Korea. For all the relevant parts Singapore could be the 51:st state. They've completely suppressed all their traditions and cultures in favour of a 100% American libertarian individualist consumer society.

youa re talking about singapoer, but there is another counter example, Hong Kong. They were under British rule for 99 years, and they did adopt many of the western lifestyle, but that meant squat. i visited HK in early 90s and saw nothing drastically different from Chineses culture. they all had their fair shair of localization of western cultures, but Singapoer just took it in under tyrannous regime(note to TBA ) and HK took it with a bit of discretion.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, this discussion started with NavyEEL asking why so many people criticise America. The answer is quite simple. The rest of the world is being affected by US policy, culture and values without having a say about it. People see their traditions and values being replaced by a bland self-replicating export version of a foreign culture so that US companies can make more cash. And that makes people unhappy.

good point. question is, do the ones who want to have a say willing to take responsibilities that come with it? like working under TBA(brrrrrrrr.... ) in some unfortunate circumstances. also it take two to make a trade. US is not sending troops to Singapore to destroy their culture, but they are taking it in as they see fit.

if there is a greater cultural domination, then it is europeans. their colonization(by a few, not all) left long-term legacies around the globe. now that US is taking over the legacy, europe pouts about loss of power they have.

[The Frenchman 0]

The official Updater 3.0

[Pipski 0]

seriously, lack of creativity is what europeans lack. or actually dumbing down of one.

lmao! I don't know where the dickens you get that from! (Assuming, that is, that the 2x-ive was unintentional, otherwise quite right.)