Germany to drop conscription by 2008

[red oct 2]

so, any surplus G36 coming ot market? although i won't be able to get one since i live in CA, it would be nice to give americans some taste of fine German engineering.

I take it CA has a fairly strick policy on the sale of fire arms? In my state you can get just about anything you want providing you got the cash and a clean criminal record. Sig, AR-15, M-16A2, AKs, Glock, Barret, even an M60 if you want something reaaaaal exoctic

Anyway i heard that Italy is also supposed to be ending the Conscription and going professional as well. What about former soviet countries? does Russia, Poland, Czech ect. have any plans to go profession in the near future? or have some of them already?

[Baron von Beer 0]

The problem is getting the weapon in the US. That is to say, you cannot. Well, there is one way. Get a class 3 FFL (Dealers liscense for full auto weaponry) and you can obtain a non transferable dealer sample (From the manufacturer). Otherwise, sorry about your luck. You can't even import a semi auto rifle that is of the assualt rifle category, due to the importation restrictions. (Which will hopefully be let to expire.. *crosses fingers*) Again a catch though. (Showing IMO what a joke the laws are) If the weapon has a certain percentage of American parts, then it IS legal. This usually includes the reciever (made to be near impossible to illegaly convert to full auto.. this part makes sense at least) and the rest is just a fixed percentage. I don't see what difference it makes if the firing pin, or a given spring was made in the US, Russia, or Antarctica. It will be of the same make, and serve the same purpose. However, the parts kits made in those countries ARE legal. But must be used after the weapon has been imported.. (Don't try and make sense of it all, you'll only develop an aneurism. )

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Create a new weapon using all the original parts of the weapon + about 10 Kgs of wood, the wood being from America.

*edit*

The wood part being removable, of course

[Blake 0]

I find it surprising if Russia is to give up conscription. Considering it's great size and lenghty borders and current conflict in Caucasia and taking their still rather bad economic situation conscription seems to be the only solution. It's much cheaper and produces enough manpower for the task. However I think they're increasing the number of officers and professionals in the army since they also need well-oiled rapid reaction forces to counter possible trouble spots.

But it seems conscription has problems like the notoriously bad conditions such as brutal bullying, lenghty service and neglected safety standards leading to numerous deaths among servicemen. Also it seems that the rich/educated elite will avoid conscription altogether, creating inequality in the society. So it's not very popular affair in Russia to my knowledge and will not be until their army changes it's methods entirely.

Finnish Army is not giving up conscription at least for number of years but it's reforming in some ways like reducing the max. number of wartime reserves from 500,000 men to 350,000.

Considering the high salaries in Finnish society and lenghty borders overall it's clear that a reasonably-sized professional force would cost enormously and conscription seems the only way to go. And duties of an infantryman are mostly simple enough for ordinary conscripts to perform.

However with the increased commitment to international operations and rapid technical upgrades in equipment I'd predict that there could be some increased professional contigent within the army which would not just be commited to training conscripts like officers and hired personnel today are mostly doing.

[Blake 0]

Just heard news, Germany is to cut 32 billion from it's defence budget. Rheinmetall stocks plumett and new projects are under risk of being cancelled.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Just heard news, Germany is to cut 32 billion from it's defence budget. Rheinmetall stocks plumett and new projects are under risk of being cancelled.

Ouch.

[EiZei 0]

Mm, I smell surplus L2A6ses 500000e a piece

[semp 0]

Just heard news, Germany is to cut 32 billion from it's defence budget. Rheinmetall stocks plumett and new projects are under risk of being cancelled.

26 billion Euros, spread over 13 years....

[der bastler 0]

Just heard news, Germany is to cut 32 billion from it's defence budget. Rheinmetall stocks plumett and new projects are under risk of being cancelled.

Yeah, cut budget for defence, r&d, education, social systems, public health, police etc.

But: Verteidigungsminister (secretary of defence) Struck signed consulting services for more than 100M€; The director of the Federal Employment Office, Gerster, wasted several M€ by renaming "Bundesanstalt für Arbeit" into "Bundesagentur für Arbeit" and by signing dubious consulting servises (purpose: to polish up PR).

bastler sez: "Idioten, Stümper!"

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]bastler sez: "Idioten, Stümper!"

Hehe who is the idiot ?

Quote[/b] ]Verteidigungsminister (secretary of defence) Struck signed consulting services for more than 100M€;

It is 11,7 Million euro not 100.

I wish people would read more papers before they start screaming:

1. The contracts were signed by prior dumbnut defence minister Scharping, not Struck.

2. Can you tell me how much money you think it will cost to reform an organization with 400.000 employes ?

3. The whole logistical concept and nationwide presence of BW is changed and therefore you need people who set up working concepts for this issue.

Stop screaming , start thinking.

As for the expension cuts.

They are a direct consequence of the shrinking process the BW will experience. Why buy vehicles if there is none to drive them ?

Here is the list:

- 10.000 unarmoured trucks cancelled

- Mungo

reduced from 900 to 388 vehicles

- Duro

reduced to 100 pieces.

- Puma (still under developement), germany´s new infantry fighting vehicle will not be cut hard. Only 8 tanks less.

410 are bought.

- New combat helo NH 90 will bought as expected.

We get 83 of this.

- Luftwaffe modernizations remain untouched.

We get 180 Eurofighters and 60 Airbus A 400  M as planned.

- Patriot missile defense modernization is cut, and some missile upgrades are cancelled.

- Tiger combat helo will be additionally eqipped with AT missiles PARS-3.

- Naval forces  MPA 3C Orion will be cut from 16 to 8 pieces

 Unique drone developement was cancelled as the BW as part of NATO is alread involved in the ground based AGS system.

- The MH 90 (maritim version of NH90) is cut from 38 to 30 pieces.

No final decission about U-Boot Typ 212-A and the Fregatten  Klasse 125 right now.

I can live with that cuts I guess. Well done Struck.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

212 is a lovely boat, 4 are going to Greece too, I just hope we don't blow them up when refuelling

Did you see the report on Welt Der Wunder a few weeks ago about the 212? The factual mistakes about submarines made me cringe

[der bastler 0]

http://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/1110352.html

Quote[/b] ]

Nach Ministeriumsangaben ist der umstrittene Berger-Vertrag nur ein kleiner Teil der Gesamtausgaben für Beratung und externe Dienstleistungen zur Modernisierung der Bundeswehr. Allein für 2004 werden dafür 165,6 Millionen Euro veranschlagt.

I was just wondering, because there are many specialists in the BW...

[ran 0]

i'm not up to date about the subject but what happened to the french VBCI, didn't the BW show interest in it ?

[Balschoiw 0]

as the VBCI was presented in a 1:1 model state in 2002

at Eurosatory and german preorder contracts were signed for 65 vehicles of that type I am pretty sure they are not on the cancelled list as most of the cuts were done to vehicles with no signed contracts.

[ran 0]

the Vehcile in your post is the VEXTRA

we've had a real polemic here about the VBCI and the VEXTRA

VBCI was, if we believe the rumours based on German specifications and risked to wipe the VEXTRA out (100% french from the basic specifications to the components) VEXTRA which was also said to be a lot less costly than the VBCI

as a result, the VEXTRA (only used in it's 105 version) will surely be purchased and should replace the AMX10RC while the VBCI will replace the AMX10P and the VAB

these two projects have several common points when it comes to comRA was originally the vehicle which would be useponents but are actually two different vehicles (the VEXTRA was originally the GIAT's answer to the ministery of defence's VBCI specification and GIAT is now working on both projects)

(the vextra can be considered as a demonstrator of the VBCI)

[Balschoiw 0]

Yes ran. I have not seen the vehicle with my own eyes as they are really rare

But the 2nd pic of me comes close to the drawing of yours.

As a side note MBB and Daimler Benz are onboard that project also.

[ran 0]

Yes ran. I have not seen the vehicle with my own eyes as they are really rare

But the 2nd pic of me comes close to the drawing of yours.

As a side note MBB and Daimler Benz are onboard that project also.

that's partly why our deputies and some GIAT officials were unhappy

as I said , the VEXTRA is a VBCI demonstrator

(by the way the VBCI drawing i posted is more recent than your second picture , it's been taken before 1997 i think and you'll notice the differences between the actual Vextra 105 or at least the 1997 one and the 2001 drawing)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Of course we gotta cut our spendings! How else are we gonna finance our weapons of mass destruction?

[ran 0]

Of course we gotta cut our spendings! How else are we gonna finance our weapons of mass destruction?

w'e could give you our obsolete free fall atom bombs or some of the retired missiles from the Albion heights .....

[Tamme 0]

Of course we gotta cut our spendings! How else are we gonna finance our weapons of mass destruction?

w'e could give you our obsolete free fall atom bombs or some of the retired missiles from the Albion heights .....

Actually I was surprised of the amount of nuclear weapons France has. I did some googling last week and it was about 470 nukes stationed around the world. I thought you had much less of them.

[ran 0]

Of course we gotta cut our spendings! How else are we gonna finance our weapons of mass destruction?

w'e could give you our obsolete free fall atom bombs or some of the retired missiles from the Albion heights .....

Actually I was surprised of the amount of nuclear weapons France has. I did some googling last week and it was about 470 nukes stationed around the world. I thought you had much less of them.

hehehe .. that's why it's called a dissuasion force

[EiZei 0]

Didnt Russia have like 20000 warheads?

[ran 0]

500 is more than enough to do the business

[USSoldier11B 0]

I'm not entirely clear on the idea of conscription. Denoir tried to explain it once and it really confused me...something about officers and conscripts. Here in the U.S. military service is not compulsory unless a draft is instated. Enlisted men are considered vocational, generally they have little more than highschool educations (except in intelligence and special operations) and make less than officers. Enlisted men are technically GI's while officers are not, in that enlisted men are provided meals, uniforms, etc by the gov't. Officers are commisioned by the President and confirmed by Congress. They have to buy their own uniforms and meals although they do receive hefty allowances for such thing so I guess it really isn't any skin off their noses. When an enlisted man becomes an NCO he competes for jobs with the rest of the NCO corps by the ratings he receives on his NCOER's. These days if there is a surplus of officers the military merely creates new positions to but them in which is creating a bureaucratic nightmare. Last there are officers by warrant who are drawn from the NCO and enlisted ranks based on a technical proficiency. While commisioned officers tend to be trained and generalists, WO's are specialists usually in comms, SF, and aviation. Sooo if Germany is getting rid of conscription does that just mean they are going to 100% voluntary service?

[EiZei 0]

I'm not entirely clear on the idea of conscription. Denoir tried to explain it once and it really confused me...something about officers and conscripts.

The basic idea is simple: 6-12 moths of service or 12 months of jail, your pick. (referring to the finnish system here, our only requirement is being able to walk to the barracks and not put a 7.62mm bullet in your officers head)

Of course there are some career soldiers too.