War on drugs?

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did the drug dealers ever actually repel a raid? Did the spec ops lose more than 10 men (if ANY)? Goodbye, seeing the fight from many perspectives and balanced sides!

Kind of like how the Deltas and Rangers were never repelled in Somalia, eh?

Quote[/b] ]you have no idea what our campaign has instore for the player. I'd bet on a balanced point of view.

Yes, if there isn't a FARC/ELN campaign then there'll certainly be some single missions where you play as a guerrilla.

Quote[/b] ]Also, only jungle and 3rd world urban areas would be modelled.

Hmm, let me count...

1. Jungle

2. Cloudforest

3. Mountains (Rocky and snowy at their peaks).

4. Plains/Grasslands

5. Small towns

6. Cities

[Gollum1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did the drug dealers ever actually repel a raid? Did the spec ops lose more than 10 men (if ANY)? Goodbye, seeing the fight from many perspectives and balanced sides!

Kind of like how the Deltas and Rangers were never repelled in Somalia, eh?

If you didn't see, IceFire was talking in the PAST tense.

Besides, Mogadishu is an entirely different situation from a jungle, but let's not get into that...

And last I checked the kill ratio in Mogadishu was somewhere around about...oh...50:1, NOT counting unarmed civilian casualties. FUN for the other side!

I dunno if this is regarding the Nightstalker MOD, or if it is more general, so ill treat it as the 1st one....

@Gollum

You obviously dont see it as well as you think you do

1)Infantry combat was what OFP was all about...for me, the other parts were just a boring interlude while i waited to get back into the infantry missions...

2) there are 15000 FARC and 10000 ELN guerillas, it is a war, not some minor ops....they are well equipped, well funded,  and although not the best trained, they know the jungle....it has more potential for being a new vietnam that Iraq has....sure there are just "advisers" there now, thats what vietnam started out as......but jungle wars tend to be almost unwinnable, especially if the US piss off the locals, which is one of their tendancies.

3) you have no idea what our campaign has instore for the player. I'd bet on a balanced point of view.

4) Does it matter what areas are modelled?....you are pretty much saying the only realistic war scenario is one in 1st world cities or European style countryside...infact, its the 3rd world/jungle areas most likely to have seen war in the past 50 years.....

5)a war in the jungle is as realistic as a war anywhere else, and even more difficult to fight. (your fighting the environment as well)

6) Did the USA win vietnam? No, but at the start it was expected....war is not clear cut, especially in the jungle....

@EDC, yeh, all infantry combat, with helo insertions of course, BUT, there is alot more scope than most realise for infantry combat.......and as i recall, most soldier games, like ghost recon, or the delta force ones, are infantry only, and they are as popular as OFP...

@Icefire, glad we are along the right lines  

@ everyone else, i hope BIS doesnt make a war on drugs campaign, because it will have already been covered.....

I am not talking about mods here, I am sure your mod/campaign may be very interesting, but check out this OVERVIEW from the OFFICIAL OFP site:

Quote[/b] ]Operation Flashpoint brings the player the most complex war game experience ever. It offers unprecedented freedom of action integrating command of larger squads and use of any available vehicles with total immersion. Operation Flashpoint simulates the best cold war military equipment - infantry, mobile, armored and aircraft.

If you want realistic U.S Special ops action ONLY, I suggest you try America's Army.

point 1: Yes, that's why you are making an unofficial campaign. The vast majority don't feel this way.

point 2: I think the majority don't care too much about playing as the Colombian Army and guerrillas in a civil war in the sequel to the original WWIII sim OFP.

point 3: If the other side is against the Delta Force, kiss either your ass or your realism goodbye. If not, see above.

Again, I'm talking about OFP2 and not dissing your mod.

point 4: Dense jungles are not good tank terrain. But you are right.

point 5: Uhh..yes.

point 6: Again, I'm talking about PAST operations. And a war on drugs in Colombia is NOT Vietnam.

Quote[/b] ]@EDC, yeh, all infantry combat, with helo insertions of course, BUT, there is alot more scope than most realise for infantry combat.......and as i recall, most soldier games, like ghost recon, or the delta force ones, are infantry only, and they are as popular as OFP...

How popular is CS, now? Okay, now how much like OFP is it? What does it matter how popular a game is, the masses are a bunch of jackasses anyway. (ok ok don't take me too seriously. )

Quote[/b] ]@ everyone else, i hope BIS doesnt make a war on drugs campaign, because it will have already been covered.....

Agree. Again, I was talking about OFP2 which should be very  versatile and not limited to jungles, not your mod.

Phew.

[IceFire 0]

Gollum, sure OPF2 shouln't be restricted to a jungle guerilla campaign. You want more variety and all that.

That is why I meant for it to be used just as 1 of the 3 campaigns. There's your variety. The other 2 can be big nation war campaigns like US v Russia or China. 1 of the 3 campaigns can be this drug guerilla war one.

3 completely different environments. 1 of them being a jungle one.

I'm sure that is the reason BIS even wants to use 3 campaigns in the 1st place. For completely different time and scenery in each one.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Sorry, but I don't want a 'game' of shooting ill-equipped, untrained, hopeless, cowardly 'enemies' who just cannot fight back effectively. It's not fun just to own the enemy with no chance of being defeated, as any kind of 'war on drugs' campaign would be.

Unless of course we were fighting as the drug lords. That would be interesting, but not that much fun either.

Besides, as already said, the vehicles would be:

Very few jeeps.

Extremely, extremely few hueys.

VS: even less technicals. And some unarmed vans and boats.

It would be boring ...and crap.

No.

[IceFire 0]

Baron, you should go back and read Pathy's last post.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I think you should read it because

a) its about the nightstalker mod, not OFP2

b) it still only has infantry combat - which is not why a lot of people play OFP.

c)

Quote[/b] ](pathy) i hope BIS doesnt make a war on drugs campaign

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't want a 'game' of shooting ill-equipped, untrained, hopeless, cowardly 'enemies' who just cannot fight back effectively. It's not fun just to own the enemy with no chance of being defeated, as any kind of 'war on drugs' campaign would be.

There are over 25000 guerillas, all well armed and equipped, organised more like proper armies, who know the jungle like the back of their hand. Please, before you assume these guerilla organisations are a bunch of retards, like everyone seems to do to every army the US have come up against, do some research.

Infantry combat is the main element of OFP....the majority like infantry combat....want evidence, look at the custom missions available for download, and the majority of them are infantry missions.....

I only hope BIS doesnt make one, because its what my mod are doing, not because its not a good idea......

Stop trying to twist quotes to suit yourself, and get your facts straight.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Where are these guerillas?

South America? Ballocks.

They have almost no training and zero assets (support, artillery, etc etc.)

Infantry combat is a large part of OFP. The majority, however, like OFP the way it is, not completely changing the dynamic of the game and removing what are some of the greatest aspects of the game.... vehicles.

99% of the missions I've played and are popular on the servers I play on involve vehicles.... fighting with them or not.

Please, don't assume everyone else is stupid, and don't make up statistics.

Fighting 'terrorists' in the 'war on drugs' is not a fun scenario. Accept it.

Likewise, fighting as the forces of Giap vs the Americans in Vietnam wouldn't be that fun either, although they did win the war. Because although they acheived their objectives, they didn't do *that much* fighting- apart from the failed offensives- which also wouldn't be fun to play through as infantry because it was a massacre.

I say again: fighting against enemies who are (relative to the forces you play as) untrained, badly equipped, poorly led and whose tactics are: avoid fighting

OR

human wave attack.

is just not fun in a game. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Its too easy.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Fighting 'terrorists' in the 'war on drugs' is not a fun scenario.  Accept it.

You may accept that. We will not coerce you into downloading our mod. However, I'm sure other people will be entertained by jungle combat.

Quote[/b] ]is just not fun in a game.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel.  Its too easy.

Ever play a mission in the Tonali jungles? Even ultra-low skill TRF forces can rip your squad of elites apart in seconds.

[Pathy 0]

Agree with M21man

And i dont make things up, you obviously didnt take my advise and get your facts straight. You are bluffing 100% of the way.

The following may help you in extracting your head from up your crack

http://www.lapress.org/Article.asp?lanCode=1&artCode=2592

http://www.colombiaupdate.com/Members/george/w/20020216131039

http://www.sponsor.org/world_issues/peace_building/colombia.html

Quote[/b] ]Today, the war is being waged on an unprecedented scale. Conflict is endemic in eight of Colombia´s 32 departments, affecting 20 percent of the total population and claiming over 40,000 lives since 1990. Nearly half of Colombia's land area (excluding major cities) is currently controlled by the FARC or ELN. Within this vast area, many pockets of territory are held by the paramilitaries, most of whom are affiliated with the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).

These are not some minor groups. If you are in doubt, just ask some colombians or people who know the country well.

Poorly equipped?

Quote[/b] ]The FARC is considered to be financially self-sufficient, raking in a staggering $600,000 million a year from kidnap ransoms, extortion payments and "taxes" levied on local drug production and trafficking. The group has an estimated 15-20,000 seasoned fighters, and possesses some 30,000 automatic weapons along with a small air force of planes and helicopters.

Stop acting like US SF are invincible, and everyone else is crap. Its not true, and there are many real life examples to show it.

If you dont like the idea, dont download it, but dont go making up stuff and trying to discredit others ideas.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Fighting 'terrorists' in the 'war on drugs' is not a fun scenario. Accept it.

You may accept that. We will not coerce you into downloading our mod. However, I'm sure other people will be entertained by jungle combat.

I was not talking about your mod.

Quote[/b] ]

Ever play a mission in the Tonali jungles? Even ultra-low skill TRF forces can rip your squad of elites apart in seconds.

Not often, because I *hate* HD weapons.

But that situation might be to do with the unsuitability of the OFP1 engine to jungle warfare - it can make it look pretty good, but the AI has to 'cheat' to be effective in it - in other words, they can see through foliage (especially if another member of their squad can see you) and you can't really use the dense foliage for cover from sight, making it ... unrealistic. And not fun. In my opinion.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Agree with M21man

And i dont make things up, you obviously didnt take my advise and get your facts straight. You are bluffing 100% of the way.

The following may help you in extracting your head from up your crack

http://www.lapress.org/Article.asp?lanCode=1&artCode=2592

http://www.colombiaupdate.com/Members/george/w/20020216131039

http://www.sponsor.org/world_issues/peace_building/colombia.html

Quote[/b] ]Today, the war is being waged on an unprecedented scale. Conflict is endemic in eight of Colombia´s 32 departments, affecting 20 percent of the total population and claiming over 40,000 lives since 1990. Nearly half of Colombia's land area (excluding major cities) is currently controlled by the FARC or ELN. Within this vast area, many pockets of territory are held by the paramilitaries, most of whom are affiliated with the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).

These are not some minor groups. If you are in doubt, just ask some colombians or people who know the country well.

Poorly equipped?

Quote[/b] ]The FARC is considered to be financially self-sufficient, raking in a staggering $600,000 million a year from kidnap ransoms, extortion payments and "taxes" levied on local drug production and trafficking. The group has an estimated 15-20,000 seasoned fighters, and possesses some 30,000 automatic weapons along with a small air force of planes and helicopters.

Stop acting like US SF are invincible, and everyone else is crap. Its not true, and there are many real life examples to show it.

If you dont like the idea, dont download it, but dont go making up stuff and trying to discredit others ideas.

Don't change your story, and don't twiust what I said.

I was talking about fighting 'terrorists' as US special forces (because that's who we'd probably be playing as)

Playing as one of the drug factions or the columbian military vs the other one would be a LOT better than that, although the shitty equipment would still be a problem.

The Farc has shitty equipment. They are well armed for drugs manufacturers NOT well armed for an army.

If you think I think the US SF are invincible (or even good) then you are deeply mistaken. They do, however, uncontravertibly, have huge amounts of high tech, effective, extremely destructive kit. So much so that a game where you played as them vs a third world basically mercenary army would not be fun because it would be... too easy.

Playing as a 3rd world mercenary army vs another equivalently trained / resourced army would be better.

Playing as the US, or russians, or even British, french, german, whatver VS an equivalent or slightly better enemy would also be good.

That's why resistance and CWC was good- you had enough equipment to get the job done but it wasn't a case of 'oh noes we are in the shit send in a wing of B2 bombers to level the jungle!' or 'Hooray we have thermal goggles, satellite imagery and lots of fire support and they have a couple of AKs and a pickup.'

Once again - I'm not talking about your mod. I'm talking about OFP2, which is not as free to do cool stuff as a mod is. You don't have to worry about idiots in the high street stores not buying your mod because it doesn't appeal to them. OFP2 has to have some degree of mass market appeal, which means if the war on drugs is in it, you *will* be playing as the 'brave american soldiers who are wiping out this horrible disease' - note the quote marks - and it will not be fun.

Your mod is fine with me. I'm sure it will be great. Its just not suitable for a game in itself, not because its a bad idea but because people are stupid, ignorant sheep who will not buy something that goes against their perceptions - which is why there aren't any games centering on playing as a german infantryman in WWII.

Centering on - not featuring.

Once again - thats quite well armed for a drugs ring, but not at all well armed for anything thats fighting a high tech, well supplied enemy like the US.

[IceFire 0]

Hi tech isn't everything Baron.

Think about this, The US has incredibly hi tech and powerful satelites and drones that can see the licence plate on a car from outer space, but how did we catch Saddam? Not using any satellites.

But by laying in wait for tips and "sightings" to come in and slow methodical "stalking".

Technology only does so much. Even when you know how to use it. You need manpower to win a guerilla war.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you think I think the US SF are invincible (or even good) then you are deeply mistaken. They do, however, uncontravertibly, have huge amounts of high tech, effective, extremely destructive kit. So much so that a game where you played as them vs a third world basically mercenary army would not be fun because it would be... too easy.

It doesn't matter if a 7.62 round is fired by a cheap, crappy rifle or an ultra-sophisticated wonder gun, it'll still kill you. In close range combat, having a rifle with 20 fancy attachments won't save you from someone with extensive experience in the jungle and a lot of backup.

[Pathy 0]

Exactly HOW did i change my story? I simply provided evidence, and you did not.

I said:

Quote[/b] ]There are over 25000 guerillas, all well armed and equipped, organised more like proper armies, who know the jungle like the back of their hand. Please, before you assume these guerilla organisations are a bunch of retards, like everyone seems to do to every army the US have come up against, do some research

Now these guerillas are known as FARC and ELN.

You responded by saying

Quote[/b] ]Where are these guerillas?

South America?  Ballocks.

They have almost no training and zero assets (support, artillery, etc etc.)

So i provide evidence to back this up

Quote[/b] ]The following may help you in extracting your head from up your crack

http://www.lapress.org/Article.asp?lanCode=1&artCode=2592

http://www.colombiaupdate.com/Members/george/w/20020216131039

http://www.sponsor.org/world_issues/peace_building/colombia.html

Quote[/b] ]  

Today, the war is being waged on an unprecedented scale. Conflict is endemic in eight of Colombia´s 32 departments, affecting 20 percent of the total population and claiming over 40,000 lives since 1990. Nearly half of Colombia's land area (excluding major cities) is currently controlled by the FARC or ELN. Within this vast area, many pockets of territory are held by the paramilitaries, most of whom are affiliated with the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC).  

These are not some minor groups. If you are in doubt, just ask some colombians or people who know the country well.

Poorly equipped?

Quote[/b] ]  

The FARC is considered to be financially self-sufficient, raking in a staggering $600,000 million a year from kidnap ransoms, extortion payments and "taxes" levied on local drug production and trafficking. The group has an estimated 15-20,000 seasoned fighters, and possesses some 30,000 automatic weapons along with a small air force of planes and helicopters.

So where exactly in there did my story change?

Oh and $600,000 million is alot more than most "third world" countries fund thier armies with. Combine that with them NOT being third world, having an extensive knowledge of terrain that other countries would not, and you have a massacre waiting to happen....The VC defeated the US with bamboo sticks dipped in rat shit, despite all the technology of the US

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]The VC defeated the US with bamboo sticks dipped in rat shit...

Human shit too .

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

If you had read properly, you would have seen that I was NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR MOD.

I was talking about how playing as US SF vs guerillas that are RELATIVELY badly trained, under-equipped, badly led, outgunned, etc.

You seem also to have totally ignored the point that even if those estimates of the guerilla forces are too low by half (IE they have double what the estimates say) - that is FUCK ALL for a modern army. Its impressive for drugs dealers. For an army that'll be going against one of the most high tech AND well supplied armies in the world, it is absolutely nothing.

Quote[/b] ]The VC defeated the US with bamboo sticks dipped in rat shit, despite all the technology of the US

Wrong. The VC defeated the US because Giap was well aware of the wider picture and knew that the only way for his forces to beat the US was to give a higher priority to political issues than to military ones, making sure that his forces had resounding public support, and doing everything he could to destroy public support for the Americans. He knew that the americans could not stay in Vietnam for long; he also knew that in conventional warfare his forces would be annihilated (and on the very rare cases that they did fight conventionally they were). His policy was to erode US morale and keep the vietnamese on his side, he knew that even if the war lasted 20 years, provided he kept support for his side, the americans would have to withdraw and he would win. Although he made some major mistakes (the Tet offensive being one of them) - his entire policy hinged on sapping US morale (using tanks crewed by women was particulary good at this), destroying home support (Vietnam being one of the first televised conflicts) and motivating the civpop (his soldiers swore an oath never to harm civilian farms, to help them when they could, etc).

Thus he defeated the US forces. But it was not without significant amounts of materiel and training from Russia and China, although this merely made the time taken for the war shorter.

If you think the VC defeated the US in one on one fights , you are utterly wrong. Any time they fought conventionally, the VC were annihilated, but because of Giaps superior grasp of the bigger picture and tactics, the VC won their objectives eventually.

Quote[/b] ]

It doesn't matter if a 7.62 round is fired by a cheap, crappy rifle or an ultra-sophisticated wonder gun, it'll still kill you. In close range combat, having a rifle with 20 fancy attachments won't save you from someone with extensive experience in the jungle and a lot of backup.

No, but if the high tech rifle is held by someone who also has a radio and access to thousands of bombers loaded with defoliants, napalm and other effective man-killers, that tends to make a bit of a dent in the low-tech side's numbers.

The US strategy was to bring the VC to battle and destroy them with superior firepower. The VC knew this and usually (apart from the aforementioned mistakes) never fought this way.

Now, apart from the fact that you are mistaken about the impact of high tech weapons on low tech enemies, you are also mistaken in thinking that any of this would be fun to play through, in game terms.

[Goeth 0]

Personally i think the war on drugs would suck a bit if it would be low tech vs high tech. I think delta force black hawk down the game was a pretty good example, that was maybe one of the shittiest game i´ve ever played.

[m21man 0]

This is not going to be hundreds of bombers against peasants or anything like that. You will frequently be operating without much air support, and your primary assets will be Colombian soldiers.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

This is not going to be hundreds of bombers against peasants or anything like that. You will frequently be operating without much air support, and your primary assets will be Colombian soldiers.

How

many

times

:

I

am

not

talking

about

your

mod

[IceFire 0]

If you are not talking about the mod or this mission from a game perspective, then why are you even talking at all? Huh?

The whole point of this thread is about a campaign, not real life.

[m21man 0]

This thread is about a possible War on Drugs campaign, which is what Nightstalker is about. Therefore, I argue.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

The whole point of this thread is about OFP2 and a possible official campaign of 'The War on Drugs.' Learn to read, icefire.

And M21man, an official campaign is far different from a community made mod campaign.

[Pathy 0]

we are just adressing the points made along the way, and telling you why our mod wont be like that, ok.......if we hadnt told you, you wouldnt know......

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]The whole point of this thread is about OFP2 and a possible official campaign of 'The War on Drugs.'  Learn to read, icefire.

And M21man, an official campaign is far different from a community made mod campaign.

How? We might have official BIS characters and an official story in a BIS campaign, but there won't be too many other differences.