War against terror

[DeLiltMon 0]

No signs of NCB weapons.

I didn't know the National Coal Board ever had any weapons, I think you mean NBC

The latest I heard this morning are that 3 are thought to have been of a similar size to the previous bombs, while the fourth was smaller and appeared to have been contained in a plastic box.

[Badgerboy 0]

No signs of NCB weapons.

I didn't know the National Coal Board ever had any weapons, I think you mean NBC  

The latest I heard this morning are that 3 are thought to have been of a similar size to the previous bombs, while the fourth was smaller and appeared to have been contained in a plastic box.

Typo, although I'm sure the NCB have stockpiles 5 miles down in some mine in Wales!

[Balschoiw 0]

From the rare news we get on the bombs themselves I think the yesterdays attacks were either conducted by an "amateur" group or the bomb material was old or the bombs were not properly built.

From what we know I guess we can surely say that the detonators went of, but did not ignite the main charges.

The reason for this could be that they used old explosives that didn´t work anymore. This would mean that all bombs were built from the same material. - > network, no solo actions.

The second possibillity is that the bombs were not constructed right, wich is unlikely given the easiness of bomb construction they used for the first attacks. Basically just stick a detonator into the explosive charge and trigger it either via a cloack or remotely or directly.

I do think that this version can be ruled out as all bombs would have been built wrong or experienced the same technical malfunction resulting from transport or something like that. I don´t think that this was the case yesterday.

From the things we know I guess it´s most likely that the explosives they used were simply too old to work.

Saying that, London was very lucky yesterday. If the explosives had worked we would have seen a similar if not worse scenario as we have seen a few weeks ago.

What can security forces do to prevent such ? Almost nothing. The transport ways in London are used by a hell lot of people and it´s more than possible to reach your destination with a bombbag just for the public character of the transportation system. Critics already say that there wasn´t much done after the latest attacks. Apart from additional camera vans and extra personel at the stations. Well, I´d like to ask the critics a question: What should have been done ?

There isn´t much possibilities for them as they have to keep people calm, assure that public transport remains vital and functioning and the amount of people using them daily just make a perfect mass for attackers to hide.

I certainly don´t want to be an arab-looking human in London these days. I guess they are watched by 20.000 eyes when they enter a tube-station.

Quote[/b] ]Has anyone considered that the bombs weren't bombs at all, but rather chemical or biological weapon dispersers? I mean, you only need a small explosive charge to disperse a toxin (like artillery shells).

Yes, I thought so too when I heard of small explosions first, but those agents can be detected very fast with quick-testers that have the size of a handy. You open them, pull out a quick test the size of a pencil, crack it open and can see the result within a few minutes. I have a bag of them at home. There are quick tests for almost every b and c agents. As these explosions happened in tube stations they simply could hold them into the ventilation system to have a 100 percent accurate result within minutes and I guess they did exactly that.

Nethertheless, I am sure we will see that sort of attacks in the near future as b and c agents can be delivered to the target in very easy ways. You actually don´t even need a bomb. Use a perfume dispenser with aerosol and some duct tape and get access to ventilation system to maximize the spread radius.

[Panda-PL- 0]

The police confirmed that one man was shot at Stockwell station durring an attempted bombing.

The tube was crawling with undercover, armed policeman after the first attack and it is propably due to this.

Another pice of news is that "Abu-Hafsa-Mashki's brigades", a group closely related to Al-quida claimed responibility to the bombings on their webpage.

The bombs were - as mentioned before - of the same construction. Only the self-made explosive material had a flaw.

Quote[/b] ]From the things we know I guess it´s most likely that the explosives they used were simply too old to work.

Black powder can do that... I'm not sure if the other materials age that quickly.

The explosives from mines laid durring WW2 are still in perfect state.

Even trough they had the same instructions it is propable that the second cell simply screw up the manufacture process. I do not think the cells had common source of explosives - that would be to risky.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Black powder can do that... I'm not sure if the other materials age that quickly.

Most explosives produced today have a date when their explosive capability expires. This is done for security reasons.

C4, Peno and Semtex are RDX based explosives which use a binding material to keep the liquid explosives in shape. After storing RDX type explosives for years those fluid components tend to leave the flexible mass and are visible as fluid around the explosives. This is a known storage limitation for RDX based explosives. Anyone who finds some RDX stock with thick fluid at the bottom better call the EOD team.

Nethertheless I guess it´s unlikely that Terrorist cells do actually use RDX based explosives as they dont serve their purpose right. You need a comparably high amount of RDX based explosives to achieve a big blast and additionally those explosives have added perfume so that you can "smell" their presence. At least dogs can and if your stick your nose in the near of it, you also can.

I guess terrorists tend to go for conventional explosives like TNT, TNB, TATB, NTO, Nitropenta, Sorguyl or CL20.

All of them get useless after being exposed to humidity (rain, sweat) for a while. Chemical processes within the explosives, expecially the ones with free radicals and like CL20 which releases small amounts of gas over time show that they are no homogen static material but do alter their state over time. Influences like temperature, humidity and forming of explosive device influence their capability to explode properly.

Additionally some of thes explosives need booster charges to even blow them up. If that high energy influx is not present they will not detonate.

[Bernadotte 0]

Additionally some of thes explosives need booster charges to even blow them up. If that high energy influx is not present they will not detonate.

I've been told that most military demolitions explosives are like that. They say that on very cold nights, soldiers used bits of plastic explosives to light fires because it burns easily like barbeque starter chips.

Ammonium nitrate fertiliser is a good example of a highly explosive material that needs a smaller explosion before it will detonate. The Oklahoma City federal building was destroyed about 10 years ago when a truck full of this fertiliser was detonated with a stick of dynamite.

[Pathy 0]

With regards to this man shot incident,

I dont think its hard to understand that if someone jumps a turnstyle, runs off, ignores the police shouting for him to stop, ignores "stop or we'll shoot!", is dark skinned, and is running for a tube train in a bulky jacket in the middle of summer time, he's going to mark himself down as a potential suicide bomber.

Yet i can already see people complaining. Personally i think they should button up and let the government get on with it. We dont know anything that goes on behind the scenes, for all we know they could have been waiting for this guy with specific intel (hence supposed plain clothes SF?).

[denoir 0]

The description given by at least one eyewitness was, well a bit disturbing..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Stockwell passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers".

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm

Quote[/b] ]"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him, [they] couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand.

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.

If this description is accurate, then it wasn't just a question of cold blooded murder, but some pretty lousy police work. If you have a suspect on the ground, you arrest him and question him - you don't shoot him five times.

I really hope there is some damn good explanation for this. Despite the terrorist attacks and all, there are still some basic rules of behaviour that the police are expected to follow - like not repeatedly shooting people lying on the ground.

[Bernadotte 0]

If this description is accurate, then it wasn't just a question of cold blooded murder, but some pretty lousy police work. If you have a suspect on the ground, you arrest him and question him - you don't shoot him five times.  

Maybe they were afraid.  

I know if I were a Londoner with a hearing disability I'd be afraid right now.

"Halt!!!  I said Halt!!!"

[Pathy 0]

Eyewitness reports are conflicting.

Quote[/b] ]As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Quote[/b] ]

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street

2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms

3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it

4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

Why didnt he just stop when challenged?

Quote[/b] ]Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

If you have a suspected suicide bomber who is wearing a heavy coat in july, runs from police when challenged, leaps the turn styles, carries on running from police, and jumps into a crowded train, what do you think the police/undercover SF/whatever the fuck the experts think those people were, are going to do, try and get cuffs on them?

No, they are going to neutralise them before they can blow themselves up and kill a load of innocents.

And even if he WASNT a terrorist, anyone stupid enough to run from armed police when asked to stop in the current climate deserves to be removed from the gene pool.

Edit: Hearing difficulty....people with those dont tend to run when police try to question them do they? They just, have trouble hearing. This guy got spooked. Normal people dont get spooked, they have nothing to hide from.

To use a phrase relating to the SAS operations in Northern Ireland, this is big boys rules.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>plain clothes</span> police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street

Hearing difficulty....people with those dont tend to run when police try to question them do they?

Not if they can see them <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>and</span> they know they are police.

But why not just wait for the facts to come out.  You're in as much hurry to convict the guy as those cops were to execute him.

[ShadowY 0]

Quote[/b] ]

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>plain clothes</span> police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street

Hearing difficulty....people with those dont tend to run when police try to question them do they?

Not if they can see them <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>and</span> they know they are police.

But why not just wait for the facts to come out.  You're in as much hurry to convict the guy as those cops were to execute him.

It`s the simple human nature, the dumb leaded by the "elite"

Nothing really changed in 6000 years "civillization"

silly "humans" dunno what "democracy" is

Only the corrupted and hypocrites will play this dirty games to the end

[CuteQA 0]

Saw this picture on news site

Is that a British SAS or bomb squad@@?

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>plain clothes</span> police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street

Hearing difficulty....people with those dont tend to run when police try to question them do they?

Not if they can see them <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>and</span> they know they are police.

But why not just wait for the facts to come out.  You're in as much hurry to convict the guy as those cops were to execute him.

It`s the simple human nature, the dumb leaded by the "elite"

Nothing really changed in 6000 years "civillization"

silly "humans" dunno what "democracy" is

Only the corrupted and hypocrites will play this dirty games to the end

@ShadowY

Sorry if you feel the need to flame me over it, i wouldnt stoop to such levels myself personally as to call other posters "dumb", i'm entitled to my own opinion.

@Bernadotte,

as i said, i dont really care if the guy was innocent or guilty (read on, you'll see why, before you post your outrage at my attitude on this matter), the "police" did what had to be done, thats all i'm saying is that i think its justified.

Just put yourself in the shooters shoes, your following a suspect, a young asian male, fitting the profile of the last suicide bombers, wearing a big coat in the middle of summer. You challenge him, he runs, you tell him to stop, he doesnt, "stop or we fire!", nope. He runs into a tube station.....remember your the officer on the ground here, so what are you thinking?....Probably "oh shit, hes gone into the tube...."?

Then he gets onto a carriage....sound sickeningly familiar?

So what would you do, your the shooter remember, given that hes ran, hes ignored warnings, hes run into the tube, and is getting on a carriage packed out with civilians? Oh and is wearing a big coat and that youve been ordered to shoot Suicide bombers in the head.

Try and get a pair of cuffs on him and risk detonation in a carriage full of people? Or empty half a mag into his head so theres no way hes going to pull that trigger?

I know what i would do.

"But what if he was innocent" i hear someone cry.

If he was innocent he shouldnt have been so stupid as to run away from police, ignore warnings to stop or be shot, gone into a tube station, and tried to get on a carriage, anyone in thier right mind wouldnt do such a thing in light of recent events. Anyone in thier right mind wouldnt do that normally even!

But now everyones outraged as apparently its like public murder or whatever. Last week everyone was looking to the police to protect them. Ok, they protected you, they made sure someone who could have blown people apart  didnt get the chance. So what do people do? Complain!

@ShadowY

Please explain your post further, beyond it being a flame. I know full well what democracy is, but please, tell me how the corrupted and hypocrites are playing this, i'm interested to know what conspiracy theories you have for this one.

@CuteQA

Thats the CQB suit that the SAS are famed for wearing ("the black kit") but i think alot of law enforcement teams use that kind of thing too.

Anyway, i hope the shooter doesnt get in the shit for this, he was right to do what he did. I dont even disagree with the number of rounds used, better to make sure hes dead than alive to blow himself up.

[wildo 0]

chris i wouldnt worry about shadowy, hes abit confilicting and slags people pff to no end 99% of the time

but if you were innocent and the police were after you, wouldnt you stop? i for sure would, i wouldnt do an assault course through the underground to get to a crowded train.

Quote[/b] ]But now everyones outraged as apparently its like public murder or whatever. Last week everyone was looking to the police to protect them. Ok, they protected you, they made sure someone who could have blown people apart didnt get the chance. So what do people do? Complain!

but chris, its what us british people are famed for! complaining at everything!

Wildo

[red oct 2]

http://tw.news1.yimg.com/tw.news.yimg.com/xp/tvbs/20050722/20/2243317344.jpg

Saw this picture on news site

Is that a British SAS or bomb squad@@?

my guess is SAS or some kind of special police similar to SWAT. Bomb Squads wear much bulkier armor. like this:

http://www.osp.state.or.us/assets/images/bomb_squad2.jpg

[Acecombat 0]

'Mass panic with people running and screaming'

Survivors describe attacks in Egypt's Sharm el-Sheik

Quote[/b] ]

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- Several explosions ripped through the night in Egypt's Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheik early Saturday, shaking windows more than five miles away.

Khaled Sakran, a resident, said he saw one explosion from the Old Market. "I saw the fire in the sky," he told The Associated Press. "Right after, I saw a light in the sky and heard another explosion, coming from Naama Bay."

A London police officer, Charlie Ives, who was on vacation, told BBC Television that he was in a street cafe about 50 yards from the explosions.

"It was mass hysteria really. We tried to calm people down," he said. He said the blast was so strong, "we were virtually thrown from the cafe."

British tourist, Fabio Basone, was in Naama Bay's Hard Rock Cafe when he heard a small explosion, then a larger one that sparked "mass panic with people running and screaming in all directions."

"We went outside onto the street where we were met with hundreds of people running and screaming in all directions," he told BBC. "I saw the front of a hotel had been blown away ... There were two bodies on the floor, but I don't know if they were dead."

Although many tourists could have been asleep when the explosions struck, the resort's sidewalk cafes, seafront restaurants and bazaars are usually packed with locals and tourists well into the late summer nights.

Source

Bombings picking up the pace?

[Bernadotte 0]

If he was innocent he shouldnt have been so stupid as to run away from police...

LOL  I guess the <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>big</span> font wasn't enough.  

Now please put down the pipe for a moment and pay close attention, dude.  The police were in plain clothes.

I'm not outraged by your conclusions, Pathy.  You're suspicions are probably correct.  It's just a bit disturbing to see you so anxious to pass judgement that you; (1) can't wait for all the facts; and (2) readily ignore/distort some of the facts you do have.

Please don't be outraged that I would prefer to wait for the facts.  

[Bernadotte 0]

Bombings picking up the pace?

Most definitely.  

But as Bush said the other day, it's better that the US fights the war against terror on foreign streets than on the streets of the US.  

[Acecombat 0]

Explosion hits Beirut

From Brent Sadler

CNN Beirut Bureau Chief

Friday, July 22, 2005; Posted: 7:26 p.m. EDT (23:26 GMT)

Quote[/b] ]

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- An investigation has begun into a powerful explosion that rocked a Christian area of Beirut Friday night, hours after U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice paid a surprise visit.

It was the second major blast in the Lebanese capital in less than two weeks.

No deaths were reported, but there were injuries, mostly from flying glass and debris.

The explosion occurred about 10 p.m. in a parking lot next to Monot Street, a popular entertainment district.

Video of the scene taken by Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation showed chaos, emergency workers moving through the crowd and security forces guarding the site.

More bombings. I guess this was sectarian violence maybe?

[Pathy 0]

"Dude", he was told to "stop, police!", so before you tell me to pay close attention "dude", why not read the details. Also seems the passengers recognised them as armed police doesnt it? At least according to several witness accounts where they "ran out past armed police" ect. If they can spot them, dont tell me our runner couldnt when TOLD that they were police.

Tell me which facts ive actually distorted "dude", and which ive ignored. Seems theres only one person ignoring stuff here, and thats you.

And "dude", as i said, i'm not passing judgement on the "victim". It doesnt matter if he was innocent or guilty, the police were justified to take him out in the circumstances, "dude". If you payed close atttention "dude" you'd have noticed that is what i was saying.

[Acecombat 0]

Bombings picking up the pace?

Most definitely.  

But as Bush said the other day, it's better that the US fights the war against terror on foreign streets than on the streets of the US.  

But you cant blame him for that? Who would welcome this fight at their door step or street? I dont see americans even wanting to bring this fight home , do you?

[Bernadotte 0]

"Dude", he was told to "stop, police!", so before you tell me to pay close attention "dude", why not read the details.

Sorry, I didn't see where it said "stop, police!"  Please show me this detail that I missed.  

(Again, ignoring the possibility that he could have been deaf.)

[Bernadotte 0]

But as Bush said the other day, it's better that the US fights the war against terror on foreign streets than on the streets of the US.  

But you cant blame him for that? Who would welcome this fight at their door step or street? I dont see americans even wanting to bring this fight home , do you?

Of course not.  Just imagine how much worse it could have been if 25,000 valuable American lives had been lost in the battle with Al Qaida instead of 25,000 innocent Iraqis.

 

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]The man was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was being watched following Thursday's attacks, a Scotland Yard spokesman said.

He was followed by surveillance officers to Stockwell station, where his clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions, he added.

Police warned the man, who ran on to the station platform. Witnesses said the officers opened fire as he jumped on to a train.

Again, ignoring the possiblity that deaf men dont run when shouted at, unless they are selectively deaf.