War against terror

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hi Sgt. Milkman

Err TBA:

US Planes Hijacked (Bad)

US Citizens Killed (Bad)

WMD in Iraq (Wrong)

Iraq Link to Al Qaida (Wrong)

Threat from Iraq (Wrong)

Err French intelligence:

No French Planes Hijacked (Good)

No French Citizens Killed (Good)

No WMD in Iraq (Correct)

No Iraq Link to Al Qaida (Correct)

No Threat from Iraq (Correct)

I make that French Intelligence 5 : TBA Nill

Their repective records speak for them selves.

Kind Regards Walker

so much BS....

[Milkman 1]

Goddamnit I have lost it with all you people. Every freaking idiot blames bush for 9/11, even though most of the people in the intelligence agencies were from the Clinton era, for example: CIA Director Tenet. The old rivalries from the Clinton administration hadn't had time to break under Bush. What pisses me off more than anything about you Walker, is the way you present your case. Unlike the usual flamer who I just ignore or find funny, you are a special breed. The way you type the way I imagine you sound IRL just makes me furious. I thought better of you when I know you were one of those good fellas from CoC but then you started spewing your stupid conspiracy crap in the Carlyle (SP? I don't give a shit anymore) group thread. For the love of christ just try to make your argument in a more polite intelligent way... Like Denoir. Make him your role model. He is a very smart man and I respect his views nomatter how much they contradict mine.

Just some thoughts, and have a nice evening.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Somebody's teddy is well and truly out of the Pram...

So you don't like Bush being blamed for being a shitty president? Tough. Truth hurts sometimes.

[Milkman 1]

Somebody's teddy is well and truly out of the Pram...

So you don't like Bush being blamed for being a shitty president?  Tough.  Truth hurts sometimes.

Truth is many the people who roam this offtopic forum need to give up the trolling and find soemthing more productive to do with their time. I almost never venture into these damn political discussions because I see nothing but hatred of americans and their government. I dunno, maybe this is your only outlit for your anger against us, because I can't think of anything you can do that would actually be constructive and that would actually influence world politics. Complaining in favor or against anything thing really has no effect. As my speech teacher once said "People get this strange idea that they can convince someone, no matter how strongly they feel about something, to go the other way. This is simpily untrue and a waste of everyones time."

Find a better way to change our foreign policy other than trying to convince total strangers on a forum that they need to change their beliefs in their government, because that will never work except with the weak minded, and I don't see any weak minded individuals on either side of this debate.

Just some thoughts. Have a nice evening gentlemen, I have wasted enough time with this thread.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Truth is many the people who roam this offtopic forum need to give up the trolling and find soemthing more productive to do with their time. I almost never venture into these damn political discussions because I see nothing but hatred of americans and their government. I dunno, maybe this is your only outlit for your anger against us, because I can't think of anything you can do that would actually be constructive and that would actually influence world politics. Complaining in favor or against anything thing really has no effect. As my speech teacher once said "People get this strange idea that they can convince someone, no matter how strongly they feel about something, to go the other way. This is simpily untrue and a waste of everyones time."

Find a better way to change our foreign policy other than trying to convince total strangers on a forum that they need to change their beliefs in their government, because that will never work except with the weak minded, and I don't see any weak minded individuals on either side of this debate.

Just some thoughts. Have a nice evening gentlemen, I have wasted enough time with this thread.

One wonders why you reply to topics like this in the first place then. Mirror, mirror, on the wall.....

PS I can't see a way to describe anyone who supports Bush as anything BUT weak-minded.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]One wonders why you reply to topics like this in the first place then. Mirror, mirror, on the wall.....

PS I can't see a way to describe anyone who supports Bush as anything BUT weak-minded.

Flame-bait.....

[walker 0]

Hi Sgt. Milkman

To make things clear I am a Practical Anarchist not some namby pamby person who follows democracy.

When The US was attacked on 9/11 like everyone I was angry and wanted to see the purpertators brought to justice.

When the attacks went in to route out Al Qaida in Afghanistan I supported TBA and TBA2.

When TBA and TBA2 showed me proof that Iraq was involved with Al Qaida were a threat to me and mine I supported them.

Since then I have had it proven to me that the Iraq war was a fantasy enemy that there was no threat and no link to Al Qaida. I have seen Coalition soldiers killed and maimed in there thousands. I have seen my countries economy damaged due to it.

I have seen the innocent citizens of Iraq killed and maimed in their tens of thousands their economy and their social structures ripped to shreds. They have no fresh water and no electricity. Innocent civilians have been tortured; even to death and soldiers of the coalition have done it and all the evidence points to the people who caused it to happen sitting at the top of the chain of command. I am ashamed of what I alowed to pass and I am angry at the deceptions that were perpetrated on me and millions like me to get me to agree with it.

In the meanwhile the real perpertrators of 9/11 have been left free to do as wish continuing to kill hundreds over the last year even to the point of missing kiling a member of my wifes family by a lucky 5 minutes.

As a result I have spent time looking into the people who brought this about. I have carefuly investigated what they did. I thoughroughly investigated the TBAs negotiations with the Taliban for an Oil Pipe line through Afghanistan and am thoughoughly convinced of their athenticity.

It happened no if buts or maybes its a fact.

If you dont like the truth then tough thats the world, live in it.

Somone sold me a line and when they do that I get angry at them. When in the course of doing it they kill and mame thousands of inocents my blood boils.

I intend to do all in my power to show people what they did how they did it and why.

As I said when I first began to suspect they had sold us line.

At the very least Iraqi citizens will be within their rights to make claims for compensation for loss of life property and earnings. Their first port of call should be the personal fortunes of the members of the adminstrations not coalition tax payers. As a tax payer in one the countries involved I would prefer that the members of an adminstration that fails to come up with proof of WMD or Al Qaida or a threat to my country have their personal fortunes so reduced as to cause them to live in a council / housing project before I pay for it.

Add coalition soldiers and their families to list of people who should be able claim against the personal fortunes of coalition administrations.

I hope I have made myself clear walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I thoughroughly investigated the TBAs negotiations with the Taliban for an Oil Pipe line through Afghanistan and am thoughoughly convinced of their athenticity.

Please explain this oil pipe line talks between TBA and the Taliban, plz....

Quote[/b] ]

At the very least Iraqi citizens will be within their rights to make claims for compensation for loss of life property and earnings. Their first port of call should be the personal fortunes of the members of the adminstrations not coalition tax payers. As a tax payer in one the countries involved I would prefer that the members of an adminstration that fails to come up with proof of WMD have their personal fortunes so reduced as to cause them to live in a council / housing project before I pay for it.

You make it seem easy.....

Quote[/b] ]Somone sold me a line and when they do that I get angry at them. When in the course of doing it they kill and mame thousands of inocents my blood boils.

I hope your blood was boiling when Saddam was in power...

[Schoeler 0]

Somebody's teddy is well and truly out of the Pram...

So you don't like Bush being blamed for being a shitty president?  Tough.  Truth hurts sometimes.

Truth is many the people who roam this offtopic forum need to give up the trolling and find soemthing more productive to do with their time. I almost never venture into these damn political discussions because I see nothing but hatred of americans and their government. I dunno, maybe this is your only outlit for your anger against us, because I can't think of anything you can do that would actually be constructive and that would actually influence world politics. Complaining in favor or against anything thing really has no effect. As my speech teacher once said "People get this strange idea that they can convince someone, no matter how strongly they feel about something, to go the other way. This is simpily untrue and a waste of everyones time."

Find a better way to change our foreign policy other than trying to convince total strangers on a forum that they need to change their beliefs in their government, because that will never work except with the weak minded, and I don't see any weak minded individuals on either side of this debate.

Just some thoughts. Have a nice evening gentlemen, I have wasted enough time with this thread.

First of all, who the fuck are you to tell people what or what not to do with their lives?

Secondly, your statement is among the most ignorant I've ever seen posted on any board I've ever participated on. You see nothing but hatred of Americans and our government? I see nothing but a few perplexed foreigners and a lot of patriotic Americans wondering exactly what the fuck happened to the real American government, the Constitution and democracy in general. Have you read the history of our republic? Have you read the Federalist Papers, the Constitution for that matter? Do you know how this government is supposed to work as opposed to how it is currently working? I highly doubt it based upon the ignorance in your latest response. You call those who voice their concerns here unpatriotic?

What fits into your definition of patriotism then? Is it ignoring any and every action of the government including those that trample upon your civil rights, the Constitution and the spirit of democracy this nation was founded upon? Is is pledging blind allegiance and fealty to the administration and never questioning the actions they take or the decisions they make?

YOU are a free person, with rights to determine what best suits yourself in your pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. You have been given a voice and a stake in this government with your vote and this government serves you, not the other way around. It is not only your privelege to examine, understand and even criticisize the actions of your government, it is your duty and responsibility as a free person and you owe it to those who died to give you that right to follow up on your obligation.

You don't think it's constructive to examine the current policies of this nation and to critisize them when they don't fit each individual free person's views of what this democracy should be? What's the point of voting then? What's the point of one man one vote? What's the point of free speech? What's the point of the first ten amendments that secure the blessings of liberty to the INDIVIDUAL? What's the point of a federalist system that creates three branches of government and a series of checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority? Why not have a dictatorship where your opinion of the government is given to you and your "vote" is pre-determined? We all then could be good little patriotic citizens, mind numbingly sieheiling the fuhrer and robotically voicing our undying allegiance.

YOU are the greatest enemy to democracy and the American Revolution. YOU are the greatest fear of the founding fathers. YOU are the destroyer of liberty and the detractor of the Constitution. YOU are the empowerer of tyrants and the facilitator of oppression. YOU in your ignorance are the very reason this government will and is falling.

You don't believe you can influence politics, even after only 537 people picked this President? You should believe now more than ever before. You should examine what is going on, be concerned over the future, wonder and worry what country your children will inherit.

You don't believe a handful of people can make a difference?

Tell that to Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, George Washington, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin and a handful of other brave patriots voicing their protest, sharing their opinion, and having the guts to stand up to the majority and to their government and do something about their beliefs.

Here, go and learn something about your freedom, you owe it to those who died giving it to you:

How a handful of protestors changed the world

[walker 0]

Hi all

It is dangerous to have people who have proven to be either liars or incompetant in their intelligence assesments in power because of their proven inability to call their country to arms.

Consider:

Boy who Cried wolf effect

Neither of those administrations can effectivley play the trump card of "trust us we are your elected leaders" when it comes to defence again.

THE most important power of a leader is that they command in war but consider TBA and TBA2 in these circumstances.

They come to you with secret information that a nation is a threat to the world. They even provide you with a dossier on it.

They ask to go to war.

Do you say yes?

Or do you blink and say we need more info?

I know I dont have to ask you to be truthfull with yourselves because your and your families lives depend on it.

Now ask yourself would TBA and TBA2 then get a majority vote in their own country?

Perhaps now you understand why North Korea anounced its Nuclear Weapons program.

In conclusion

In the Iraq War and the war on terror TBA and TBA2 have proven them selves singularly inept.

I do not trust such idiots with the defense of the nation I live in I want them out they are dangerous.

Concerned Walker

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]One wonders why you reply to topics like this in the first place then. Mirror, mirror, on the wall.....

PS I can't see a way to describe anyone who supports Bush as anything BUT weak-minded.

Flame-bait.....

No, I'm totally serious. I cannot do anything but question the sanity of anyone, who is not a rich white tycoon, who supports Bush. What possible reasons are there?

Cheated his way into office.

Cheated the black and minority voters out of their appeal against his discriminatory voting system.

Ran up a huge defacit.

Spent almost half his time in office on vacation before september 11th

Has some EXTREMELY dodgy links with members of Bin Laden Family and Saudis associated with 11/9.

Invaded Afghanistan in order to get that pipeline built, and as a scapegoat when they had nothing to do with 11/9

Invaded Iraq for no good reason when they had nothing to do with 9/11 AND no WMD

Is fucking over families of casualties of the conflicts he has started

Is really, really, really unintelligent.

Is a christian zealot who thinks he is on a mission from god

etc

What are the good points? Please enlighten me.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]No, I'm totally serious.  I cannot do anything but question the sanity of anyone, who is not a rich white tycoon, who supports Bush.  What possible reasons are there?

Cheated his way into office.

Cheated the black and minority voters out of their appeal against his discriminatory voting system.

Ran up a huge defacit.

Spent almost half his time in office on vacation before september 11th

Has some EXTREMELY dodgy links with members of Bin Laden Family and Saudis associated with 11/9.

Invaded Afghanistan in order to get that pipeline built, and as a scapegoat when they had nothing to do with 11/9

Invaded Iraq for no good reason when they had nothing to do with 9/11 AND no WMD

Is fucking over families of casualties of the conflicts he has started

Is really, really, really unintelligent.

Is a christian zealot who thinks he is on a mission from god

etc

What are the good points?  Please enlighten me.

1. please read this http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm -talks about F9/11...uses sources to disprove some of Moore's "truths" into half-truths or a lie...

2. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126404,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

New Report to Back Up WMD Claims

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

WASHINGTON — An upcoming report will contain "a good deal of new information" backing up the Bush administration's contention that Saddam Hussein pursued weapons of mass destruction (search), Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner (search), R-Va., said.

The administration cited Saddam's hunger for such weapons as a main reason to invade Iraq last year.

"I'm not suggesting dramatic discoveries," Warner told reporters Tuesday, but "bits and pieces that Saddam Hussein was clearly defying" international restrictions, "and he and his government had a continuing interest in maintaining the potential to shift to production of various types of weapons of mass destruction in a short period of time."

The report is by the civilian head of the Iraq Survey Group (search), Charles Duelfer, who reports to the CIA director. Initially the report was expected to be done this summer, but instead it will come out in September, Warner said.

Warner said the new information covers "some weapons that predate the first Gulf War that are still around and were used at the time Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Iranians" as well as "remnants of what he was doing himself here in the last several years." He would not elaborate, saying he didn't want to pre-empt the report.

The senator made the comments after a closed briefing by Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton, who updated the panel on the Iraq Survey Group's progress. Dayton returned from Iraq last month after giving up his post as the military head of the hunt for weapons as part of a routine rotation. Marine Brig. Gen. Joseph J. McMenamin became director of the Iraq Survey Group on June 12.

The intelligence community, meanwhile, hopes the trials and interrogations of "high-level detainees" by the new Iraqi government could yield more information about Saddam's weapons programs, Warner said.

"The Iraqi people are still concerned that some remnants of this program are yet to be found," Warner said.

A defense official speaking on condition of anonymity Tuesday, said the survey group has not yet found any new evidence of Saddam weapons. While there are "all kinds of documents" showing his intent to produce weapons of mass destruction, there is "no treasure map that shows 'Here is where the missing munitions are,'" the official said.

3. Bush may be not the best president or worst but I'm not in the poor house (*yet*, UMD is going to kill me), a major terrorism (Al-Q not talking about ELF and them) attack has not happen since 9/11, Iraq was a thorn that could of been handle without violence but still glad Saddam is gone, and etc.

4. I guess will not be discriminated against during election day 2004 because I'm 65% sure that Bush will get my vote....

[walker 0]

Hi Sgt. Milkman

For the record I have never, I repeat never said a bad thing against America not once.

George Bush Jnr and TBA are not the US or its people they are an admistration a bunch of contract managers nothing more nothing less.

Giving George Bush Jnr. and his bunch of Chicken Hawk NeoConMen wusses a good political kicking is not attacking the US and is certainly not attacking soldiers or veterans because those NeoConMen are a bunch Vietnam War Dodgers to a man because almost without exception they never served. finding rich boy excuse after excuse not to or like George Bush Jnr. himself dodging the Vietnam war and going AWOL.

Too often I have seen the Chicken Hawk NeoConMen hide behind the US flag like children behind their mothers skirt.

It is not the flag of the NeoConMen it is the flag of the USA and of freedom and democracy.

It is not the flag of the NeoConMen it is the veterans flag who they short changed 1.3 billion this year.

It is not the flag of the NeoConMen it is the flag of the innocent people killed in 9/11 who died while TBA were on watch.

It is not the flag of the NeoConMen it is the flag of the families of the Firemen, Policemen and Paramedics who went to rescue those in the twin towers.

It is not the flag of the NeoConMen it belongs to families of the hundreds of US sevicemen who have lost their lives in the Iraq war a war against a fantasy enemy.

The NeoConMen can not hide behind the flag it aint theirs.  

Getting Angry Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok ppl, calm down or i'll have to do some 'moderating'

[Schoeler 0]

Typical mindless Bush supporter. Mouths the words of support that have been drilled into his washed brain and then dodges out with his hands over his ears to avoid hearing any semblance of the truth. If it ain't the party line, just shout loud enough to drown it out so you and others don't hear it. Then repeat the mantras you've been taught long enough to make them seem true in your mind.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Typical mindless Bush supporter. Mouths the words of support that have been drilled into his washed brain and then dodges out with his hands over his ears to avoid hearing any semblance of the truth. If it ain't the party line, just shout loud enough to drown it out so you and others don't hear it. Then repeat the mantras you've been taught long enough to make them seem true in your mind.

Who is this directed to....

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok. that's it. i'm locking this thread for next 24 hours. hopefully people will be a bit more calm.

[Balschoiw 0]

Up with bad news.

U.S. Air Raid Goes Astray, Hurts 8 Afghan Soldiers

Quote[/b] ]Eight Afghan soldiers have been wounded in an erroneous aerial bombardment by U.S. forces in central Afghanistan (news - web sites), a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Sunday.

Four of the soldiers, all from the newly U.S.-trained Afghan National Army, have returned to duty, said Zahir Azimi.

The others were taken to hospital, he said, but gave no word of their condition.

The bombing occurred on Tuesday in Deh Rawud district of Uruzgan province, scene of a joint operation by Afghan and U.S.-led troops against guerrillas from the ousted Taliban regime.

The U.S. military had earlier said that 10 Taliban fighters were killed in the attack and four Afghan soldiers wounded in the gunbattle with the Taliban.

It had no immediate comment on the Defense Ministry report.

U.S.-led forces have been involved in a series of so-called "friendly fire" incidents since they invaded Afghanistan in late 2001 in an operation that led to the Taliban's overthrow.

In the worst recent one, last December, American raids in southeastern Afghanistan killed 15 children, drawing stern protests from the Afghans and the United Nations (news - web sites).

Separately, four Afghan police were hurt on Saturday when a bomb placed in a pressure cooker went off outside a Norwegian aid agency in Maimana, the provincial capital of Faryab province, western sources said.

The police were injured while they were checking a first explosion that had damaged the gate of the agency.

Afghans said the blasts were aimed at the agency's office and blamed Taliban remnants and their Islamic allies.

The Taliban have called for a "jihad" or holy war against aid workers and Afghan and foreign forces based in Afghanistan.

Some 900 people have been killed in the country, mostly in the Taliban-led insurgency, since last year.

Afghanistan plans to hold its first direct presidential election in October. People are concerned about security in the run-up to the poll because of the growing violence mostly linked to militants and the slow pace of the disarmament of factional forces.

FF again and again and again...

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]3. Bush may be not the best president or worst but I'm not in the poor house (*yet*, UMD is going to kill me), a major terrorism (Al-Q not talking about ELF and them) attack has not happen since 9/11, Iraq was a thorn that could of been handle without violence but still glad Saddam is gone, and etc.

If we start using that as a standard that is a sad sad commentary.

On that same logic one can say "No major terror attack happened in the US until Bush." Not to mention this seems to imply that AQ just has the ability, the resources, and the time to launch a major attack at will, when indeed, that is not at all how it works.

It perplexes the living hell out of me when people use that as an "Everything is A-OK" arguement.

[SpongeBob 0]

On that same logic one can say "No major terror attack happened in the US until Bush."

Remember the first WTC bombings.

[Akira 0]

On that same logic one can say "No major terror attack happened in the US until Bush."

Remember the first WTC bombings.

That can not be labeled "a major terrorist attack," if anything just by number killed, and poor execution.

Plus we got those perps pretty quick.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]That can not be labeled "a major terrorist attack," if anything just by number killed, and poor execution.

Plus we got those perps pretty quick.

It seems you forgot about the OK city bombing. The 2000 bombing would/could of happened if it was not for a curious border guard.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]That can not be labeled "a major terrorist attack," if anything just by number killed, and poor execution.

Plus we got those perps pretty quick.

It seems you forgot about the OK city bombing. The 2000 bombing would/could of happened if it was not for a curious border guard.

At the risk of offending people, I would hardly consider the OKC bombing a major terrorist attack either. OKC was planned and executed by a two or three nutjobs with a Ryder truck and lots of fertilizer.

It hardly has the sophistication, resources, and planning needed to, say, get foreigners into the US, train them as pilots, get past security, hijack 4 airliners, and fly them into major landmarks.

And indeed, that might/should not have happened had people "connected the many dots." (To use a 9/11 catch phrase)

[ozanzac 0]

At the risk of offending people, I would hardly consider the OKC bombing a major terrorist attack either. OKC was planned and executed by a two or three nutjobs with a Ryder truck and lots of fertilizer.

I can't agree with that. The events of 9/11 could have just as easily been committed by American citizens, and the OKC bombing could have been committed by international terrorists. By defining the OKC bombing as not a major terrorist event, your simply looking the other way and ignoring the problems in your own backyard.

9/11, was still carried out by nutjobs, albeit determined, organised nutjobs.

[Akira 0]

At the risk of offending people, I would hardly consider the OKC bombing a major terrorist attack either. OKC was planned and executed by a two or three nutjobs with a Ryder truck and lots of fertilizer.

I can't agree with that. The events of 9/11 could have just as easily been committed by American citizens, and the OKC bombing could have been committed by international terrorists. By defining the OKC bombing as not a major terrorist event, your simply looking the other way and ignoring the problems in your own backyard.

9/11, was still carried out by nutjobs, albeit determined, organised nutjobs.

Actually I'm not looking the other way. I never dismissed the importance of OKC, I just said it wasn't a major terrorist attack, and compared with the level of 9/11, it wasn't. Indeed, it just as easily could have been orchestrated by foreign elements, but it wasn't. And even if it had been, it hardly would have been as "sophisticated" as 9/11 (they only would have had to buy fertilizer, and I doubt they would have had to train for months to drive a Ryder truck). Just because it happened on US soil, and was unexpected from a public point of view, it hardly can be called "major." (other than in the US psyche) At the time, it certainly was a wake up call, and came in the middle of the governments odd war against militias, but to say OKC was a major attack, on par with 9/11, is ludicrious. It had no real long-lasting effects, and though tragic, changed nothing really.