War against terror

[denoir 0]

Course we can't say one way or the other how he got killed since the Army is releasing little or no information. So it's possible he did just that.

From the Fox's mouth.

Quote[/b] ]But of course there is also another kind of "hero". One who gives up what would be a cushie life to do what he think is right.

I'd say it is an abuse of the word. There are quite a few people that would fit that description. Heroes are supposed to be something exceptional. As I said: hero inflation.

Quote[/b] ]I'm constantly amazed by European ability to flip-flop from liberal idealism to cynicism as if flipping a switch.

The liberal idealism is reserved for the future we want and for peace. The cynicism is applied to war, nationalism, patriotism and mom's apple pie. We've had countless of wars. Thousands of real heroes that spilled their blood for king and country. And frankly after a millenia of death and glory we kind of got fed up with it. The two world wars were the final straw. We have enough experience to be very cynical about American 'patriotism' and how you value it.

[NavyEEL 0]

I dunno, I like to consider everyone who selflessly serves (and gives their life for) their nation as a hero.  Does it mean he was a Medal of Honor winner?  No, but he is still a hero--just of a different kind.

Yes, Pat Tillman's death is receiving publicity simply because he was a famous football player who gave up money and fame to serve his country.  But is that so bad?  It allows the rest of the nation to see that some things are more important than money.  It gives them a public figure who made a sacrifice, and other people can look up to him and his example.  (As opposed to the professional athletes who just whine about not getting paid enough).

And Balschoiw... I don't even know what to say to your comments you constantly make in reference to soldiers dying.  Yes, it's already apparent that you do not care about troops getting killed in combat--you have made that clear on SEVERAL occasions.  So please, I'd appreciate it if you would just save your breath because comments like that add nothing to the discussion.  Thanks.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]From the Fox's mouth.

That says little except there was a firefight. How did he die seems important for your definiton of "hero." So again. You don't know how he died. Was he hit by a richochet? Was he shot by friendly fire? Or did he die saving comrades?

Quote[/b] ]I'd say it is an abuse of the word. There are quite a few people that would fit that description. Heroes are supposed to be something exceptional. As I said: hero inflation.

That's the first time I heard someone say the dictionary was "abusing" a word. You have an exceptional grasp of the English language. You know many words have more than one meaning.

But given your definition:

Quote[/b] ]Heroes are supposed to be something exceptional.

I still say that he fits. Does someone who gives up his lifestyle to do what he thinks is right no fit that? He was obviously good enough to make Ranger. Was he a "hero" that charged the guns to save his comrades? Dunno. He certainly is the hero that gave up his privilige lifestyle because he felt his country needed him. To do what was right and help bring the perpetrators of 9-11 to justice. That is still a hero in any definition.

Quote[/b] ]We have enough experience to be very cynical about American 'patriotism' and how you value it.

I see nothing wrong with the kind of patriotism that caused Tillman to join with his brother. (it is the essentially the same as post-Pearl Harbor).

I see something wrong in the Bush version of patriotism.

Quote[/b] ]Thousands of real heroes that spilled their blood for king and country.

I'm puzzled by that considering what you have said before.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And Balschoiw... I don't even know what to say to your comments you constantly make in reference to soldiers dying. Yes, it's already apparent that you do not care about troops getting killed in combat--you have made that clear on SEVERAL occasions. So please, I'd appreciate it if you would just save your breath because comments like that add nothing to the discussion. Thanks.

I am a soldier. I knew a lot of soldiers who already died in combat or by accidents.

It´s simply nothing special that soldiers get killed. That´s what soldiers do. They end lives of others or get killed themselves. I will not save my breath NavyEel. You have to realize what reality means during combat time. It makes no difference if you are a singer, a rockstar, a footballplayer or whatever.

If you go for war you can get killed. No matter if you are famous or not. That doesn´t make you a hero automatically.

Heros are different in my definition. It takes more than to die to be a hero in my opinion.

Quote[/b] ]save your breath because comments like that add nothing to the discussion. Thanks.

In case you missed it this thread is about the war on terror and not about a dead football player. So who is ontopic and who is offtopic ?

I´d like to see the same level of reactions to the HRW report as you showed for the death of a single person.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life

Nice deffinition and yes Tamil was a hero.

Unfortunatly this makes every foreign fighter even more of a hero then this football player turned special op was.They risk their lifes every day,experience the danger of being carpet bombed to pieces etc.Many had decent lives in their home country a job and a familly but at the call of Holy war against the occupiers they joined the fight and they did it for no money at all just for the pride of answering the call,they are prepared to die for their cause in a war where they are vastly outnumbered and outgunned-feats of courage-

Hope you agree that it`s fair to assume due to news media  objectiveness from now on we should see on the headlines "30 heroes killed by US soldiers in firefight",no?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]In case you missed it this thread is about the war on terror and not about a dead football player. So who is ontopic and who is offtopic?

How does "American troops are killing and abusing Afghans, rights body says" relate to the war on terror? Furthermore, american soldiers who died fighting in the war on terror is on-topic.

[llauma 0]

Quote[/b] ]In case you missed it this thread is about the war on terror and not about a dead football player. So who is ontopic and who is offtopic?

How does "American troops are killing and abusing Afghans, rights body says" relate to the war on terror? Furthermore, american soldiers who died fighting in the war on terror is on-topic.

You are not discussion him 'cause he did something worth to meansion but only 'cause he is a famous NFL player. Americans abusing afghans is a big thing, one american punching a afghan isn't. This is what happens on this american crusade against terror so it's on-topic.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are not discussion him 'cause he did something worth to meansion but only 'cause he is a famous NFL player. Americans abusing afghans is a big thing, one american punching a afghan isn't. This is what happens on this american crusade against terror so it's on-topic.

He was a soldier first then a ex-NFL player. He and others died for their/my country (including the world), and that something I respect.

Quote[/b] ]

Americans abusing afghans is a big thing, one american punching a afghan isn't. This is what happens on this american crusade against terror so it's on-topic.

First, it is not a "american crusade" against terror. Balschoiw is basically saying (from his post) that a soldier who was killed in the war against terror is off-topic. However, american personnel/soldiers accused of crimes is on-topic? American soldiers (and other nations that were helping the US) killed fighting in the war against terror is on-topic.

[Balschoiw 0]

Yeah but were would we get if we discussed every death of a talented afghan sportsman or writer who got shot in the war on terror ?

He was a soldier. When he joined his troops he got a task he had to fulfill with other soldiers. All were human. All were equal. All had the same task. 2 died.

He didn´t even die heoic. He had a job. He did his job. He died while doing his job.

There is just nothing special about that. He knew about the risks and he died. That happens a lot these days.

There is no heroic moment in this. At least I can´t see one.

If you say this is heroic you have to say that every single soldier fighting in the name of the USA and died in combat is the same hero as the NFL guy is.

What makes it heroic ?

This thread is about the war on terror and terrorism in general. I know it may be sad fact that he died but it is a consequence of this war on terror.

It´s reality, not heroic.

[SpongeBob 0]

Cool I went through a bunch of my 2001 football cards and found 3 Pat Tillman cards! EBay here I come!

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/index.html

Quote[/b] ]AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- Jordanian authorities said Monday they have broken up an alleged al Qaeda plot that would have unleashed a deadly cloud of chemicals in the heart of Jordan's capital, Amman.

The plot would have been more deadly than anything al Qaeda has done before, including the September 11 attacks, according to the Jordanian government.

Among the alleged targets were the U.S. Embassy, the Jordanian prime minister's office and the headquarters of Jordanian intelligence.

U.S. intelligence officials expressed caution about whether the chemicals captured by Jordanian authorities were intended to create a "toxic cloud" chemical weapon, but they said the large quantities involved were at a minimum intended to create "massive explosions."

Officials said there is debate within the CIA and other U.S. agencies over whether the plotters were planning to kill innocent people using toxic chemicals.

At issue is the presence of a large quantity of sulfuric acid among the tons of chemicals seized by Jordanian authorities. Sulfuric acid can be used as a blister agent, but it more commonly can increase the size of conventional explosions, according to U.S. officials.

Nevertheless, U.S. intelligence officials called the capture of tons of chemicals that together could create several large conventional explosions "a big deal."

The plot was within days of being carried out, Jordanian officials said, when security forces broke it up April 20.

In a nighttime raid in Amman, Jordanian security forces moved in on the terrorist cell. After the shooting stopped, four men were dead. Jordanian authorities said. They said at least three others were arrested, including Azmi Jayyousi, the cell's suspected ringleader, whom Jordanian intelligence alleges was responsible for planning and recruiting.

On a confession shown on state-run Jordanian television, Jayyousi said he took orders from Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a suspected terrorist leader who has been linked to al Qaeda and whom U.S. officials have said is behind some attacks in Iraq.

"I took explosives courses, poisons high level, then I pledged allegiance to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, to obey him without any questioning," Jayyousi said.

Jordanian intelligence suspects Jayyousi returned from Iraq in January after a meeting with al-Zarqawi in which they allegedly plotted to hit the three targets in Amman.

In a series of raids, the Jordanians said, they seized 20 tons of chemicals and numerous explosives. Also seized were three trucks equipped with specially modified plows, apparently designed to crash through security barricades.

The first alleged target was the Jordanian intelligence headquarters. The alleged blast was intended to be a big one.

"According to my experience as an explosives expert, the whole of the Intelligence Department will be destroyed, and nothing of it will remain, nor anything surrounding it," Jayyousi said.

Details of the alleged plot were shown Monday on Jordanian television, including graphics of how the cell apparently intended to carry out the attack.

In an videotape shown on Jordanian TV, Hussein Sharif said Jayyousi recruited him as a suicide bomber.

"The aim, Azmi told me, was to execute an operation to strike Jordan and the Hashemite Royal family, a war against the crusaders and infidels," Sharif said. "Azmi told me that this will be the first chemical attack that al Qaeda will execute."

Jordanian authorities said the attack would have mixed a combination of 71 lethal chemicals, which they said has never been done before, including blistering agents to cause third-degree burns, nerve gas and choking agents.

A Jordanian government scientist said the plot had been carefully worked out, with just the right amount of explosives to spread the deadly cloud without diminishing the effects of the chemicals. The blast would not burn up the poisonous chemicals but instead produce a toxic cloud, the scientist said, possibly spreading for a mile, maybe more.

The Jordanian intelligence buildings are within a mile of a large medical center, a shopping mall and a residential area.

"And there is no one combination of antidote to treat nerve agent, choking agent and blistering agent," the scientist said.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/04/27/guns.back.ap/index.html

war on terror is really taking toll on civilians.

Quote[/b] ]RENO, Nevada (AP) -- The U.S. military is demanding the return of five howitzers that two Sierra Nevada ski resorts use to prevent avalanches, saying it needs the guns for the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Alpine Meadows and Mammoth Mountain received the artillery pieces on loan from the Army and began using them last year to fire rounds into mountainsides and knock snow loose.

But the ski resorts received word earlier this month that the Army's Tank Automotive and Armaments Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois needs the howitzers back.

"I need to have them back in the troops' hands within 60 to 90 days," said Don Bowen, the Army command's team leader in charge of the howitzers.

"It's a very short timeframe to get them serviceable and back into the theater in southwest Asia. Afghanistan-Iraq is the immediate concern."

The ski resorts said they will comply.

"Given it's a war effort, their needs are greater than ours," said Larry Heywood, Alpine Meadows director of mountain operations.

Howitzers are short-barreled cannons that typically are pulled by a vehicle. They fire three to 10 rounds a minute at a range of about five to 10 miles.

Replacing a M119 -- the type used at the resorts -- would cost around $1 million, Bowen said Tuesday.

The military lent two to Alpine Meadows and three to Mammoth Mountain.

A gun doubling as a safety tool

Alpine Meadows and Mammoth Mountain are the only ski resorts in the nation using the M119 model, said Bob Moore, a U.S. Forest Service specialist in Truckee, California.

The M119 is a lightweight 105 mm howitzer designed for airmobile operations. Other resorts have other models of 105 mm howitzers.

Pam Murphy, senior vice president at Mammoth Mountain just east of Yosemite National Park, said the military has provided the ski resort with recoilless rifles and other guns for avalanche control for 30 years. The howitzers are the most effective, Murphy said.

"It was designed to kill people, but it's a very valuable safety tool for us," said Rachael Woods, a spokeswoman at Lake Tahoe's Alpine Meadows, where seven people were killed in an avalanche in 1982.

Resort officials said they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to transport the guns, reimburse the Army for training and build firing platforms.

But Murphy said she understood the Army's decision: "We're certainly at a different place in the world than when we first got the guns."

The Forest Service said it is working to secure older howitzers for the ski resorts, and the Army's Bowen said he is optimistic that will happen.

[SpecOp9 0]

The Middle Eastern states aren't nations; they're quarrels with borders.

[billybob2002 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kpix/20040501/lo_kpix/9940

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON-AP)--Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed in Afghanistan (news - web sites), has been awarded the Silver Star for leading his team to the rescue of comrades caught in an ambush.

 

Tillman was shot and killed while fighting ``without regard for his personal safety,'' the Army said in announcing the award.

Quote[/b] ]

On Thursday the Army announced that Tillman had been posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal. He was assigned to A Company, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, based at Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._star_1

Quote[/b] ]

His platoon was split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was leader of the lead group. The trailing group received mortar and small arms fire, and because of the cavernous terrain the group had no room to maneuver out of the "kill zone."

Tillman's group was already safely out of the area, but when the trailing group came under fire he ordered his men to get out of their vehicles and move up a hill toward the enemy.

As Tillman crested the hill he returned fire with his M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, a lightweight machine gun.

"Through the firing Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the award announcement said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Turk Police Foil Bomb Plot Aimed at NATO Summit

Mon May 3, 2004 10:27 AM ET

By Gareth Jones

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish police said Monday they had foiled a bomb plot targeting a NATO summit in Istanbul at the end of June which is to be attended by President Bush and other Western leaders.

Police arrested 16 men they said were believed to belong to a militant Islamist group called Ansar al-Islam. They were detained on April 29 in the town of Bursa, 160 miles south of Istanbul.

The police also seized guns, explosives, bomb-making booklets and 4,000 compact discs featuring training instructions from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

The Anatolian state news agency said a further nine men had been held in Istanbul, but a state prosecutor later released them, saying they had no proven links to Ansar al-Islam.

Turkish security has been stepped up since four devastating suicide truck bomb attacks in Istanbul last November that killed 61 people. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attacks which targeted British and Jewish sites.

Ansar al-Islam is a militant group from Kurdish northern Iraq accused by Washington of being an ally of al Qaeda and a force behind attacks on U.S. troops occupying Iraq.

"After a successful operation the organization planning this attack has been destroyed. This is the result of a year-long operation," Bursa governor Oguz Kagan Koksal said in a statement carried by the state Anatolian news agency. Koksal said Ansar al-Islam had planned to carry out more attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq after the June 28-29 NATO summit. NTV television said some of those held had already taken part in the insurgency in Iraq.

NATO UNFAZED

A NATO spokeswoman said the alliance was not reconsidering its plan to hold the summit in Istanbul." At the moment there is no consideration of that," she said. "The Turkish authorities are responsible for security and we have confidence in them."

The governor of Istanbul, Muammer Guler, said the authorities were taking every precaution against a possible attack before or during the NATO summit.

"There is no reason for concern about the meeting," Anatolian quoted Guler as saying.

Dozens of leaders including Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac will attend the summit, where Iraq's future will feature high on the agenda.

The men arrested in Bursa had also been plotting an attack on a synagogue in the town as well as a bank robbery to raise funds for their operations, Koksal said.

The men had been found to hold fake identity cards. They had also been involved in the manufacture of fake software including PC games to raise money, Koksal said.

Turkish television showed pictures of timing devices, guns and explosive materials seized by the police in Bursa.

Since the November bombings, Istanbul -- Turkey's commercial hub and largest city -- has witnessed several other much smaller attacks, the most serious of which targeted a Masonic lodge and killed a waiter and one of two suicide bombers.

Turkey, the only Muslim member of NATO, is viewed as a prime target for militant Islamist groups due to its secular democracy and close security ties with the United States and Israel.

[Akira 0]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1793195

Quote[/b] ]

Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Former Arizona Cardinals safety Pat Tillman was posthumously awarded the Silver Star for leading his Army Rangers unit to the rescue of comrades caught in an ambush.

Tillman was shot and killed in Afghanistan while fighting "without regard for his personal safety," the Army said Friday in announcing the award.

The Silver Star, awarded for gallantry on the battlefield, is one of the most distinguished military honors. On Thursday the Army promoted Tillman from specialist to corporal. He was assigned to A Company, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, based in Fort Lewis, Wash.

In announcing the Silver Star award, the Army Special Operations Command provided the most specific description of what happened to Tillman on April 22.

His platoon was split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was leader of the lead group. The trailing group received mortar and small arms fire, and because of the cavernous terrain the group had no room to maneuver out of the "kill zone."

Tillman's group was already safely out of the area, but when the trailing group came under fire he ordered his men to get out of their vehicles and move up a hill toward the enemy.

As Tillman crested the hill he returned fire with his M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, a lightweight machine gun.

"Through the firing Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the award announcement said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished.

"As a result of his leadership and his team's efforts, the platoon trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without a single casualty," the announcement said.

The announcement gave no other details of how Tillman was killed.

At least one other soldier in Tillman's unit apparently was wounded. Gen. John Abizaid, the commander of all forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, told reporters that he spoke Thursday in Afghanistan with the lieutenant who was Tillman's platoon leader.

"He was still nursing a large number of wounds that he sustained in that firefight where Pat Tillman lost his life," Abizaid said Friday.

Abizaid said he asked the lieutenant about Tillman.

"He said, 'Pat Tillman was a great Ranger and a great soldier. And what more can I say about him?'"

Tillman, 27, walked away from a three-year, $3.6 million contract offer from the Arizona Cardinals to join the Army in 2002.

A public memorial service was scheduled for Monday in California. The afternoon service will be held in Tillman's hometown of San Jose, Calif., at the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden.

In reply to:

Quote[/b] ]Yepp, certainly a candidate for a Medal of Honor.

Btw, to those that I discussed the use of the word 'heroism' in the "War against terror thread", this would be it by my definition.

So he still seems to fit the definition of "hero," whichever one you wish to apply here.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Rich Tillman, younger borther of Pat Tillman, holds up a glass of beer during a memorial service for Tillman in San Jose, Calif., Monday, May 3, 2004. Tillman, a member of the Army's elite Ranger unit since 2002, died in Afghanistan April 22 in a firefight near the Pakistan border. (AP Photo/Gene Lower, Pool)

[brgnorway 0]

Good Lord this is pathetic!

What on earth is this thread changing into? A sentimental bullshit picture collection of lot's of bla bla bla?

This is about the "war against terror" not a picture site or an altar of the greatest sacrifice of famous sportsman!

What makes this person anything greater than all the others loosing their lives in this conflict?

What makes this persons death more important than the failing of establishing democracy in Afghanistan?

What makes this persons death more important than the suffering of the people whom once again have to endure the warlords brought to power by US?

Can we please talk about something else - or maybe we should talk about Ayerton Senna who crashed and died 10 years ago at the San Marino track?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What on earth is this thread changing into? A sentimental bullshit picture collection of lot's of bla bla bla?

This is about the "war against terror" not a picture site or an altar of the greatest sacrifice of famous sportsman!

What makes this person anything greater than all the others loosing their lives in this conflict?

What makes this persons death more important than the failing of establishing democracy in Afghanistan?

What makes this persons death more important than the suffering of the people whom once again have to endure the warlords brought to power by US?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm....snbccom

Tillman's death is being used by the far (far) left for their augment against the war aganist terror because he was a football player and his death can pay for the "bills".

------------

Anyway:

"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin....intable

[SpongeBob 0]

[Balschoiw 0]

We have 3 Air force Bases on 2nd highest alert level at the moment.

There are indications for a terror act.

No official source yet.

[booradley60 0]

Who's we?

[llauma 0]

Who's we?

propably the UN

[denoir 0]

Germany.

[denoir 0]

Die Welt Article

Quote[/b] ]Terroralarm bei deutschen Jagdbombern

Das Verteidigungsministerium stellt erhöhte Gefährdung fest. Diese gelte für zwei Wochen im Mai. Es liegen Warnungen des Bundeskriminalamts vor

Berlin - Zwei Standorte der Luftwaffe sind wegen möglicher Terroranschläge in erhöhte Alarmbereitschaft versetzt worden. Wie ein Sprecher des Verteidigungsministeriums mitteilte, handelt es sich um das Fluglehrzentrum im nordrhein-westfälischen Rheine und ein Jagdbombergeschwader in Büchel in Rheinland-Pfalz.

Auf Grund von Hinweisen des Bundeskriminalamtes gelte in der laufenden Woche sowie vom 24. bis 30 Mai die zweithöchste Gefährdungsstufe, hieß es am Dienstag in Berlin weiter. Der Südwestrundfunk (SWR) hatte zuvor berichtet, wegen der Sorge um mögliche terroristische Anschläge gelte die zweithöchste Gefährdungsstufe.

Das Ministerium erläuterte nicht, warum die genannten Zeiträume als besonders gefährlich angesehen werden. Der SWR berichtete, dass bei einem Gerichtsverfahren gegen Iraker Schriftstücke des irakischen Geheimdienstes Anhaltspunkte für geplante Anschläge auf die beiden Luftwaffenstandorte geliefert hätten.

Mit der Gefährdungsstufe "Charly" seien bestimmte Auflagen verbunden. Danach könne unter anderem der Besucherverkehr eingeschränkt werden, Fahrzeuge müssten weiten Abstand zu Gebäuden halten und Führungskräfte im Notfall binnen einer Stunde in der Kaserne sein. WELT.de/AP/ddp

To lazy to translate it for you, but AP or Reuters should have it soon. Basically it says that they have heightened readiness state at two Luftwaffe bases after warnings from the Bundeskriminal.