War against terror

[denoir 0]

Did you forget about the shoe bomber?

Yeah, again, fingerprinting wouldn't have helped there either. He tried to set off a bomb on the way to the US, well before he was in the country. And he had no prior records for that matter.

Quote[/b] ]

What about the current UK warnings on British flights?

Which turned out to be nothing.. And again, trans-atlantic flights where the passangers would have not been fingerprinted.

You have to make up your mind. Either you want a police state/world where you can forget about the concept of privacy and where all the government tracks all individuals 24/7 or you have to accept the risks that come with an open society.

This will all go away sooner or later. As ozanzac said, America is paralyzed with unreasonable fear and paranoia. The response to that fear has so far been brute force and aggression which IMO isn't helping anybody but the terrorist who with force got the country in another state. They really hit the jackpot and for every step you transform your society as an effect of their actions they are winning more and more.

As I said, this will go away in perhaps a couple of years. We do however have an exceptional chance to observe how easily all the principles that the American/Western society claims to be its core go flying through the window as soon as something nasty happens and people feel threatened. A system that specifically registers Arabic nationals, treats its visitors like criminals, locks up people without accusing them of any crime, eliminates the privacy of its citizens is not an open system and is a far cry from the ideals of a western democracy. Look carefully at the mass hysteria because you have a first row view of something that people will be asking later "how could they let this happen?". The really scary part is how easy and how fast it happens and how the mechanisms that are supposed to safeguard democracy and freedom are instantly compromised.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes on a british flight and caught by the passengers who will now all in future when they visit the US be fingerprinted like criminals.

1. If most of those passengers are US or European citizens, then they won't.

2. Even if they aren't, it's regrettable that it has reached the point where the idea is being implemented. I know plenty of people who have jobs in US brokerage firms and are obligated to have their fingerprints taken by the FBI as well as submitting to urine exams. You haven't heard them crying for the last several decades that they feel like criminals. The emotional association with criminality is just that.

3. The above does not indicate that I necessarilly agree or disagree with this particular method being employed.

Quote[/b] ]Have there been any arrests of the people who the US said were due on the flights?

To the best of my knowledge, no. But have a look at this UK article:

Quote[/b] ]SHE BOMBER Jan 3 2004

By Jeff Edwards, Justine Smith And Dawn Knight

A BA flight to Washington was cancelled at the last minute yesterday after an intelligence tip-off that a woman suicide bomber planned to blow up the plane over the US capital.

Quote[/b] ]By the way glad you seem to agree that US should stop giving in to terrorism.

Whatever.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

What about the current UK warnings on British flights?

Which turned out to be nothing.. And again, trans-atlantic flights where the passangers would have not been fingerprinted.

I just said that, above. Nevertheless, something clicked in the intelligence system, which does not live by fingerprints alone, as you've said yourself.

Quote[/b] ]You have to make up your mind. Either you want a police state/world where you can forget about the concept of privacy and where all the government tracks all individuals 24/7 or you have to accept the risks that come with an open society.

There could be something in between. Indeed, compromises will have to be made. The world is sadly a worse place to live in.

If the planes started crashing into downtown Stockholm, I don't think you would talk so easily about this being an all or nothing choice.

Quote[/b] ]This will all go away sooner or later. As ozanzac said, America is paralyzed with unreasonable fear and paranoia.

It's very reasonable. That doesn't mean that all methods employed are. But there are definite threats from multiple sources to the US and its interests.

Quote[/b] ]The response to that fear has so far been brute force and aggression which IMO isn't helping anybody but the terrorist who with force got the country in another state.

What about Afghanistan? What about Libya? Too soon to tell about Iraq, IMO.

Quote[/b] ]As I said, this will go away in perhaps a couple of years.

Perhaps.

Quote[/b] ]We do however have an exceptional chance to observe how easily all the principles that the American/Western society claims to be its core go flying through the window as soon as something nasty happens and people feel threatened.

I don't see that at this point. This is overblowing the current situation. Keep in mind that the US is currently at war.

Quote[/b] ]A system that specifically registers Arabic nationals, treats its visitors like criminals, locks up people without accusing them of any crime, eliminates the privacy of its citizens is not an open system and is a far cry from the ideals of a western democracy.

Indeed. May it not have to happen to you.

An interesting read: A Call for Intelligent Profiling, by Daniel Pipes.

[toadlife 3]

While I completely agree about the whole fingerprinting/photographing thing is completely useless, I disagree with the privacy concerns.

A condition of my employment (at a school) was that I was fingerprinted. Many other jobs here require the same thing.

So my fingerprints are on record - big deal.

When lojack like tracking devices are proposed for all people entering the U.S, then I will have issues, but I don't see having fingerprints on record a huge invasion of my privacy.

I don't think traveling across the borders of any sovereign country is a basic human right that every human is born with.

If I ever travel to another country and they want to fingerprint me, I will have no problem with it. Almost every single time I have gone up to Canada and come back across the supposedly "Open Border" both U.S. and Canadian customs officials have searched my possessions. Yes, it was very, very annoying, but it is within any country's rights to do so.

[Acecombat 0]

DENOIR:

Quote[/b] ]You have thousands of flights every day in the world. How often do hijackings happen? How often do people take over planes and fly them into buildings? Very very seldom. It's an over-reaction.

Indeed thats exactly what i have been coughing since the last page and Ralph didnt get it either.

I doubt if fingerprinting will help catch a first time terrorist since thats their first and last time if its a suicide mission , so no use keeping their record either. If you wanna fingerprint then go to afghanistan and all muslim countries i would say and start finger printing ever individual you find everywhere and record them (a task which has proved to be elusive to the native govts) maybe then you might find this tactic worth whatever it is ....

[denoir 0]

It's very reasonable. That doesn't mean that all methods employed are. But there are definite threats from multiple sources to the US and its interests.

The response has been disproportionate. Sure 3,000 dead is a tragedy but put in perspective you can see that it's not the end of the world. Almost ten times as much die in traffic accidents in the US. You don't see a 'war on wreckless driving' declared, do you? It's all psychological and that's also what the terrorist aim at. USA is acting like its existance is threatened which really isn't the case. And this disproportionate response is really exactly playing into the hands of the terrorists who become much more important than they really are.

And the number of innocent civilians (Afghanistan+Iraq) that died as a consequence of this disproportionate response is far higher than those killed by the terrorists.

And I won't even go into the fact that this disproportionate response hasn't worked at all as we could see by last year's terrorist attacks.

Quote[/b] ]

What about Afghanistan? What about Libya? Too soon to tell about Iraq, IMO.

What about them? Afghanistan is a complete mess and Libya is the perfect example of a 'soft' solution through economy and politics.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]We do however have an exceptional chance to observe how easily all the principles that the American/Western society claims to be its core go flying through the window as soon as something nasty happens and people feel threatened.

I don't see that at this point. This is overblowing the current situation. Keep in mind that the US is currently at war.

With whom? Fingerprinting certainly won't help catching Saddam loyalists. Are you refering to the elusive 'war on terror'? That's a nice catch phrase but I'm afraid that it means even less than Reagan's 'war on drugs'. This is not a war that can be won through force. There is no entity that could surrender to the US and say 'ok, hey - you won. we'll stop attacking you'. This is something that can only be solved through a long-term political and cultural reconciliation. Until it isn't you'll have more people becoming terrorists than the rate at which you can kill them. Surely you who live in Israel have seen this in your own country?

Not to mention that it's terribly difficult to place the Iraq war within the frame of the 'war on terror'.

As for my point which you say that you don't get, it is that there have been some very radical things happening in USA. They're locking people up without trial or accusing them of anything. Searches of homes, cars etc can be done without a warrent. The FBI can tap phones and the internet without having a court order etc (Patriot act). Also you have the international affairs where USA currently is acting like an overgrown bully, pushing its weight around with complete disregard for other countries.

There have been some very fast, very serious changes in USA the last few years - changes that cannot be justified with the 'oh, but we were attacked' whining.

toadlife:

Quote[/b] ]I don't think traveling across the borders of any sovereign country is a basic human right that every human is born with.

I agree and I'm not saying that USA doesn't have the right to do it. I'm just saying that it's stupid. You may not have a problem with fingerprinting, but I do. Call it a difference of culture - in Sweden such a thing would be very unconstitutional. And what I'm saying is that I'm fairly sure that I'm not the only one and that it in the end will only hurt US tourism. Although USA doesn't appeal to me nowdays anyhow and I doubt that I would have visited it any time soon, I most certainly won't be doing it while such a system is in place. As it is right now, being a Swedish citizen, I would not be fingerprinted, but it's a matter of principle.

I've been to the US three times (as a tourist) and passing the customs was as an unpleasant experience as I would tolerate.  And now it's getting worse.

Call me old-fashioned but when I enter a country as a tourist, I want the customs officials to be sucking up to me for bringing my cash to their country  

[EiZei 0]

You know, there are other ways to kill lots of people and/or enter countries illegally than flying..

[Winters 1]

I couldn't believe what i was reading when i first saw this, this won't accomplish anything other than make tourists angrier when entering the country.

You would think that someone nuked the US with the paranoid way TBA is acting.

I try to stay away from these threads as they are just filled with pseudo-intellectual know it alls who carry a grudge against the USA but this really is freaking rediculous.

So lets see, you come here and we fingerprint you and go "Ok, your not wanted for any crimes in America so welcome" oh yeah, thats gonna save us all.

[theavonlady 2]

So lets see, you come here and we fingerprint you and go "Ok, your not wanted for any crimes in America so welcome"  oh yeah, thats gonna save us all.

Have you ever been fingerprinted? For non-criminal purposes?

[Balschoiw 0]

All these changes done to US law and all that changes in US policies and the general governmental way remind me very much of the history of my own country. Scream if you want but Nazi´s in germany started in a similar way.

1. create fear

2. change law in a very drastic way to control

a) your own people

b) public opinion

c) international relations

d) foreign citizens (How long will it take until tourists

are tracked in the US ?)

3. start a war (insert whatever reason)

4. goto 1

I don´t like it and a lot of people I know also don´t like it.

USA is a no-go for me atm.

[theavonlady 2]

All these changes done to US law and all that changes in US policies and the general governmental way remind me very much of the history of my own country. Scream if you want but Nazi´s in germany started in a similar way.

When they start measuring the circumference of the perfect North American skull, get back to us.

Such nonsense.

[denoir 0]

All these changes done to US law and all that changes in US policies and the general governmental way remind me very much of the history of my own country. Scream if you want but Nazi´s in germany started in a similar way.

When they start measuring the circumference of the perfect North American skull, get back to us.

Such nonsense.

Don't tell me you're that naive. It's a socio-political process that has occured many times. He's not talking about Nazism specifically.

In the middle ages in Europe they chased witches.

In Nazi Germany a they chased Jews.

In the 50's in America they chased communists.

Now they chase terrorists.

The process is exactly as Bals described: a mass hysteria driven by fear and exploited by those in power.

You asked me earlier what my point was. This is exactly my point. Balschoiw wrote it down more directly to the point.

How far it will go this time we don't know yet. It is however unmistakably the same mechanism.

[Winters 1]

So lets see, you come here and we fingerprint you and go "Ok, your not wanted for any crimes in America so welcome"  oh yeah, thats gonna save us all.

Have you ever been fingerprinted? For non-criminal purposes?

Yes, i had to be bonded at my job. But still, what does fingerprinting really accomplish in the grand scale of the war on terror?

I think it accomplishes nothing. Unless your a terrorist who has been captured and fingerprinted in the past it won't do anything. Sure, it will catch some criminals but the point is to stop terrorists from entering the US.

[Winters 1]

All these changes done to US law and all that changes in US policies and the general governmental way remind me very much of the history of my own country. Scream if you want but Nazi´s in germany started in a similar way.

I don´t like it and a lot of people I know also don´t like it.

USA is a no-go for me atm.

I have thought the same on more than one occasion lately. But i dont think it's gonna turn into the second coming of the Nazi party.

Sorry we are a no-go for you ATM  

[theavonlady 2]

Don't tell me you're that naive.

.........................

In the middle ages in Europe they chased  witches.

Were these people a real danger?

Quote[/b] ]In Nazi Germany a they chased Jews.

Were these people a real danger?

Quote[/b] ]In the 50's in America they chased communists.

Were these people a real danger?

Actually, some communists could have been but not in the McCarthy sense of it.

And what was the result? McCarthy was put to shame for the abuse he dished out and the US moved on.

Quote[/b] ]Now they chase terrorists.

Are these people a real danger?

Quote[/b] ]The process is exactly as Bals described: a mass hysteria driven by fear and exploited by those in power.

There is no mass hysteria except for some forum members here.

[theavonlady 2]

Yes, i had to be bonded at my job.

Do you feel as if you're a marked man for it or was it more like let's get over it and move on?

Quote[/b] ] But still, what does fingerprinting really accomplish in the grand scale of the war on terror?

Note above I never said it is or isn't a great idea. I have similar questions regarding its benefits. That's something the decision makers better have an answer for. My terrorist hunting career consists so far of finding out who chipped the good china. Come to think of it, a fingerprint check would be very handy!

edit: g'nite!

[Winters 1]

Yes, i had to be bonded at my job.

Do you feel as if you're a marked man for it or was it more like let's get over it and move on?

Quote[/b] ] But still, what does fingerprinting really accomplish in the grand scale of the war on terror?

Note above I never said it is or isn't a great idea. I have similar questions regarding its benefits. That's something the decision makers better have an answer for. My terrorist hunting career consists so far of finding out who chipped the good china. Come to think of it, a fingerprint check would be very handy!

edit: g'nite!

It was most definetly something i did to get it done and then be on my way.

I still think the fingerprinting is a dumb idea but if another country did it i would not be less likely to visit it and i definetly do not see mass hysteria and panic here i think thats just in D.C.

I got a good laugh when i read some senators saying "The last place i would tell my constituents (sp?) to be on New Years Eve is Times Square" and then i read a reply by the Mayor saying he is looking forward to sitting in his office on New Years Day and accepting apologies from these guys when nothing happens.

I thought it was very New York of us to don all those Orange hats and wave those Orange ballons, it was kinda like;

"Code Orange? i got your code orange right here pal"

But as i said before, there is nothing i can say or do to make a difference so i just keep on editing away and living my life as usual.

[bn880 5]

All these changes done to US law and all that changes in US policies and the general governmental way remind me very much of the history of my own country. Scream if you want but Nazi´s in germany started in a similar way.

I don´t like it and a lot of people I know also don´t like it.

USA is a no-go for me atm.

I have thought the same on more than one occasion lately. But i dont think it's gonna turn into the second coming of the Nazi party.

Sorry we are a no-go for you ATM

And no-go for me since 11/9 actually... I don't find visiting the US to be worth even the slightest chance of wasting hours at a border corssing, or being deported where I should not be. It's ok, plenty of other places to go, if I can afford it that is.

I think this will actually alienate the US even more. I kind of wonder, with the US dollar dropping like a rock, is Bush thinking they can turn the US into another China, cheap export and barely any imports... regime, self sufficient? Because it will never happen...

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now they chase terrorists.

Are these people a real danger?

Not nearly in the extent as they're presented by the current US government. As Winters said, they're acting like somebody nuked the US. In absolute casualty numbers, terrorists are a minor inconvenience but they're treated as if they were a mortal threat to our civilization.

40,000 people die in traffic accidents in the US each year. Over 500,000 die of cancer in the US each year.

Where do all the billions go and what do the politicians talk about? Terrorism.

Quote[/b] ]And what was the result? McCarthy was put to shame for the abuse he dished out and the US moved on.

Exactly, and that's what I'm saying is going to be the case with TBA. I tell you, in 20 years people will talk about this period as a 'dark era' in US history. The question now is how much damage TBA can make before more sensible people take over.

[Winters 1]

I think this will actually alienate the US even more.  I kind of wonder, with the US dollar dropping like a rock, is Bush thinking they can turn the US into another China, cheap export and barely any imports... regime, self sufficient?  Because it will never happen...  

Actually, the economy is recovering quite well. The Dow Jones is back over 10,000 and the NASDAQ is back over 2,000. These numbers are very close to the pre-9/11 numbers.

[ralphwiggum 6]

DENOIR:

Quote[/b] ]You have thousands of flights every day in the world. How often do hijackings happen? How often do people take over planes and fly them into buildings? Very very seldom. It's an over-reaction.

Indeed thats exactly what i have been coughing since the last page and Ralph didnt get it either.

and you weren't getting it that just because it did not happen doesn't mean that it will never happen

[bn880 5]

I think this will actually alienate the US even more. I kind of wonder, with the US dollar dropping like a rock, is Bush thinking they can turn the US into another China, cheap export and barely any imports... regime, self sufficient? Because it will never happen...

Actually, the economy is recovering quite well. The Dow Jones is back over 10,000 and the NASDAQ is back over 2,000. These numbers are very close to the pre-9/11 numbers.

And your currency is dropping like a stone, that is why your economy is recovering, at the moment. And your nice tarriffs and extra boost you got from blocking borders to CDN beef also helps. But this is all very short term, and will be awfull when you start being dependent on some import goods. The pricess will be very high.

EDIT: Basically by dropping the value of your currency, you make your firms more competetive, and keep more money in the US, again, short term, digging yourself a hole since you do not have the population of China or India either.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now they chase terrorists.

Are these people a real danger?

Not nearly in the extent as they're presented by the current US government. As Winters said, they're acting like somebody nuked the US. In absolute casualty numbers, terrorists are a minor inconvenience but they're treated as if they were a mortal threat to our civilization.

40,000 people die in traffic accidents in the US each year. Over 500,000 die of cancer in the US each year.

Where do all the billions go and what do the politicians talk about? Terrorism.

Quote[/b] ]And what was the result? McCarthy was put to shame for the abuse he dished out and the US moved on.

Exactly, and that's what I'm saying is going to be the case with TBA. I tell you, in 20 years people will talk about this period as a 'dark era' in US history. The question now is how much damage TBA can make before more sensible people take over.

Wow very nice post , Denoir for President

@Ralph: Man you also arent getting it that such building rammings with planes happen 1 in a ten thousand flights perhaps and that probably a understatement i guess....

If your so paranoid about it happening you might escort every flight in your country with a Fighter jet

[Acecombat 0]

Brigadier Found Dead

P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News Sta

JEDDAH, 5 January 2004 — A senior military officer in the southern border city of Jizan was found shot dead in front of his house on Saturday. Al-Jazirah Arabic daily said the attack on Brig. Gen. Hadi Mabjer Al-Sahli, chairman of the military council at the border guards command in the Jizan region, took place soon after Fajr prayers as people in the neighborhood had seen him at the mosque for the prayer.

The general’s murder comes less than a week after an attempt on a high-ranking intelligence officer in Riyadh. The officer escaped unharmed when his car exploded last Monday night.

There were conflicting reports on the general’s death. Family members were quoted as saying that unidentified gunmen shot him dead while others said he committed suicide because of psychological pressure.

Sahli’s maid said she woke at 5 a.m. terrified by the sound of gunshots outside the house, where she found the general’s body in a pool of blood. Police have launched an investigation into the incident.

Maj. Gen. Saleh Al-Santeeli, director of border guards in Jizan, said he believed a family dispute could be behind the crime. Sahli’s father agreed and accused a relative of the murder. A will has been found near the body but Al-Jazirah said it was not clear who wrote the will and what its relation with the murder was.

Saudi Arabia launched a nationwide campaign against terror following the May 12, 2003 bombings at residential compounds in Riyadh.

[Tovarish 0]

Quote[/b] ]

A mother's enquiry about buying Microsoft Flight Simulator for her ten-year-old son prompted a night-time visit to her home from a state trooper.

Julie Olearcek, a USAF Reserve pilot made the enquiry at a Staples store in Massachusetts, home to an earlier bout of hysteria, during the Salem witch trials.

So alarmed was the Staples clerk at the prospect of the ten year old learning to fly, that he informed the police, the Greenfield Recorder reports. The authorities moved into action, leaving nothing to chance. A few days later, Olearcek was alarmed to discover a state trooper flashing a torch into to her home through a sliding glass door at 8:30 pm on a rainy night.

Olearcek is a regular Staples customer and schools her son at home. The Staples manager simply explained that staff were obeying advice. Shortly before Christmas, the FBI issued a terror alert to beware of drivers with maps, or reference books.

At one time it was rare to find US citizens, in the safest and most prosperous country in the world, jumping at their own shadows. Now we only note how high. ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/34776.html

....I started playing MS FS 4.0 when I was 11....