Estonia votes, too

[NurEinMensch 0]

Today the people in Estonia vote on becoming an EU member or not and it looks like they are going to vote "yes".

euobserver.com : Polls show huge backing for EU in Estonia

Quote[/b] ]All the recent opinion polls indicate that Estonia will vote in favour of European Union membership on Sunday (14 September) - whatever the Estonians decide, it is expected to have a substantial influence on the Latvians.

I hope they will in fact for EU membership and see this as a good sign.

[Supah 0]

They have allot to gain from joining the EU. New markets opening up, lots of aid through subsidies. No wonder their all for it

[EiZei 0]

Well, the outcome is pretty obvious.

[Gollum1 0]

It´s a done deal. I put my money on "yes".

[Bluesman 0]

Well. To any Estonians on this board. Welcome to EU

BM

[cam0flage 0]

Welcome Estonia and a new era of large scale importation of tax-free liquor to Finland! ;)

I'm not too surprised by the result. Estonians really want to be a part of Europe, and that's good.

[NurEinMensch 0]

Welcome to the EU Estonia!

[denoir 0]

Absolutely. Welcome

Good to see that somebody believes in the European project

[/walks away muttering]

[Bluesman 0]

Absolutely. Welcome

Good to see that somebody believes in the European project

[/walks away muttering]

Well Denoir. At least you can say "I'll be back"

It's not over til the fat lady sings as they say. We will be there at some point.

BM

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Well, good for them, but I don't remember the EU asking them to join in the first place AFAIK, the member talks involved Poland, CZ, and the former Yugoslavian member states

As for Estonia joining, that is the best way to ruin the European economy. What is that country going to add to the EU, apart from a financial burden? Then you also have the problem of one vote=no resolution, no one should be allowed to enter until this has been fixed!

As long as one nation has the right to block a European resolution, the EU will remain powerless, just like the League of Nations. Majority rule has to be adopted for the EP, otherwise nothing will get done. Just look at Ireland messing things up for everyone last time a resolution was being debated. This sort of thing should not be allowed to happen. A 70% majority rule should be adopted IMO. Of course, all the small countries will reject this as they don't want to be bullied around by the larger countries

Coming back to the financial points, AFAIK the richest soon-to-be EU member is Cz? But their GDP is only about 1/2 to 1/3 of that of Greece and Portugal, the poorest nations in the EU The EU keeps pumping billions every year into Portugal and Greece, and now they want to support more countries too? How is that going to work? You can't have 3 rich nations supporting the rest of the EU. We should rather spend another 5 years fixing up the economies of the poorer nations in the EU, before we add more countries. This may look conservative, but it is in fact only practical. The EU will fail if adding countries means more money going out than money coming in.

I would really love to see some financial numbers on the prospective members and compare them to the existing EU Right now it seems like economic disaster to me.

[Oligo 1]

As far as I know Estonian economy is humming along pretty nicely, considering that they have very few business limiting laws in place and lots of highly trained personnel. The problem I see is all companies escaping high taxation and strict corporate laws to Estonia. Maybe that will force the dissolution of the scandinavian social-democrat welfare state.

[Bluesman 0]

Once again Adam Smith has to be brought into a debate .

The main purpose with EU is free trade and free movement of people. Not about handing subsidies to various countries.

All countries in EU new and old benefits from increased trade between the countries. Thus new members will infuse new trade/business options and also enable their entrepeneurs to more freely do business elsewhere. Free trade is paramount to development and increase in general welfare - that is what EU is all about. Plus it draws people closer to eachother and brings peace.

Lastly; Estonia has 1.4 million citizens, they are hardly going to pose a burden to any EU country. If anything they should pass a few of them in a few years.

In addition; Poland with it's 40 million citizens and Chech republic and Hungary with their high education rate and technology competence should within 4-5 years pass the poorer countries. After all their growth rate is still relativelly high.

Most compelling argument is of course that BIS is in Chech republic. That if anything shows what the new members are capable of . Plus their girls rocks but that's another issue.

BM

[brgnorway 0]

As far as I know Estonian economy is humming along pretty nicely, considering that they have very few business limiting laws in place and lots of highly trained personnel. The problem I see is all companies escaping high taxation and strict corporate laws to Estonia. Maybe that will force the dissolution of the scandinavian social-democrat welfare state.

This is true! The norwegian solution is to move our production to the baltic nations. The result is that Norway is becoming a society where we make a living of cutting eachothers hair.

Sad but true.

Besides, Estonia joining the union makes sense to me. My highly unqualified guess is that this will ensure the rest of the baltic nations join EU pretty soon. Expect to see a "baltic political block" in EU in the future - just as the scandinavin nations used to cooperate before the EU-troll swallowed Denmark and Sweden.

[Bluesman 0]

I dont see that problem. If anything Estonia will learn from Sweden, Norway and Finland. Of course there are things they could learn us too but i think the exchange will be quite mutual. The tax pressure will go down here anyway due to harmonizing with EU standards.

But yes it will put pressure on Swedish workers/employers. We need to keep staying on top when it comes to production know-how, that is how we can compete - and not risc losing jobs to others.

Btw, when will those stubborn Norwegian Vikings join the community? We here in Gothenburg could use some better ties with Norwegians with them Scanians having the Öresundsbron and Stockholm Arlanda.

BM

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Once again Adam Smith has to be brought into a debate .

The main purpose with EU is free trade and free movement of people. Not about handing subsidies to various countries.

All countries in EU new and old benefits from increased trade between the countries. Thus new members will infuse new trade/business options and also enable their entrepeneurs to more freely do business elsewhere. Free trade is paramount to development and increase in general welfare - that is what EU is all about. Plus it draws people closer to eachother and brings peace.

Lastly; Estonia has 1.4 million citizens, they are hardly going to pose a burden to any EU country. If anything they should pass a few of them in a few years.

In addition; Poland with it's 40 million citizens and Chech republic and Hungary with their high education rate and technology competence should within 4-5 years pass the poorer countries. After all their growth rate is still relativelly high.

Most compelling argument is of course that BIS is in Chech republic. That if anything shows what the new members are capable of . Plus their girls rocks but that's another issue.

BM

Whilst you are correct that the EU will undoubtedly raise the new member's economy and bring them on par with other EU nations, I am also worried about the amount of subsidies needed to achieve this. I have a very real fear that it may bankrupt the EU in the short run and that the EU will stall there and then - without waiting a generation to see the improved economies "repair" the wrecked budget.

However, even if it does work out economically, what about the politics side of it? With 25 nations debating, and a single nation (despite its size/importance to the EU) having the ability to stop any resolution coming out, proper decisions simply can't be made. This needs to be changed before the new members are admitted in, or it will be chaos!

[Bluesman 0]

However; That is exactly what the new EU constitution tries to solve. IE slimmer decision structure, a type of EU "president". I do not want a political union personally but I agree that some sort of efficient leadership needs to be put in place. The new EU-commisionaries are at least heads and shoulders above the older corrupt ones.

AFAIK they removed the subisidy problem at large when they negotiated with the new member. They will not get the same amounts as old members.

Btw something to think about for all those sceptics.

Poland with 40 million and Germany with almost 80 million(afaik) and France on the other side with about 50 will create a huge critical mass of consumers centered in a fairly close area. Not now but when Germany gets East sorted out(they will at some point) and Poland gets closer to the rest of EU in consumer power (they will) we will get a HUGE outlet center for products not seen before in European history. This alone will be great for everything from games to other products. A bonus will be a Russia with increasing purchase power, creating even more goods exchange.

One thing worries me though; Will this put a huge strain on Central European ecology? What with all the problems they already have.

BM

BM

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]But yes it will put pressure on Swedish workers/employers. We need to keep staying on top when it comes to production know-how, that is how we can compete - and not risc losing jobs to others.

Same thing here really. Our problem is that we can't even compete with sweden due to lack of industrial capacity. That's why we envy you Volvo, Saab and Ericksson

Instead of making sure we specialize in knowledge orientated production we subsidise a coming bancrupcy. We're well and truly f**cked.

Quote[/b] ]Btw, when will those stubborn Norwegian Vikings join the community? We here in Gothenburg could use some better ties with Norwegians with them Scanians having the Öresundsbron and Stockholm Arlanda.

I certainly hope Norway pulls it's finger out and become a member in a not so distant future. It's the only working solution. However, most norwegians are willing to have it all - without paying for it! And that's our basic problem!

[Postduifje 0]

Coming back to the financial points, AFAIK the richest soon-to-be EU member is Cz? But their GDP is only about 1/2 to 1/3 of that of Greece and Portugal, the poorest nations in the EU

Slovenia is the richest upcomming member, with its GDP which surpasses UK's if I remember correct. Don't show the old 'behind the iron curtain' view of Eastern europe, they're economically not that far behind us...

-Post

[Bluesman 0]

Quote[/b] ]But yes it will put pressure on Swedish workers/employers. We need to keep staying on top when it comes to production know-how, that is how we can compete - and not risc losing jobs to others.

Same thing here really. Our problem is that we can't even compete with sweden due to lack of industrial capacity. That's why we envy you Volvo, Saab and Ericksson  

Instead of making sure we specialize in knowledge orientated production we subsidise a coming bancrupcy. We're well and truly f**cked.

Quote[/b] ]Btw, when will those stubborn Norwegian Vikings join the community? We here in Gothenburg could use some better ties with Norwegians with them Scanians having the Öresundsbron and Stockholm Arlanda.

I certainly hope Norway pulls it's finger out and become a member in a not so distant future. It's the only working solution. However, most norwegians are willing to have it all - without paying for it! And that's our basic problem!

Well at least your Telenordia is putting a huge pressure on our greedy mobile operators with DJUICE right now . That shows how great competition is. Cell costs are killing me.

Theoretically there's no hindrance in increasing trade in this area of course(that would be the general area in Bohuslän/Norway). However; I think with Norway not being in EU there's less activity than there could be. The new improved highway and railroad is a start of course.

Surelly there must be more to trade than drunk Swedes in Hemsedal and drunk Norwegians in Gothenburg .

BM

[brgnorway 0]

Well at least your Telenordia is putting a huge pressure on our greedy mobile operators with DJUICE right now . That shows how great competition is. Cell costs are killing me.

Theoretically there's no hindrance in increasing trade in this area of course(that would be the general area in Bohuslän/Norway). However; I think with Norway not being in EU there's less activity than there could be. The new improved highway and railroad is a start of course.

BM

Quote[/b] ]Surelly there must be more to trade than drunk Swedes in Hemsedal and drunk Norwegians in Gothenburg .

Hehe.... (still laughing) it's so true!

I agree - we really should join EU. The scandinavian countries have a good tradition of pulling together when needed. To me the three-state embassy of Berlin is a symbol of exactly that.

I hope we do join soon though - it'll cost us a lot if we don't.

See you later - I have to make dinner unless I want my marital-union to dissolve!

[joltan 0]

Instead of making sure we specialize in knowledge orientated production we subsidise a coming bancrupcy. We're well and truly f**cked.

As long as Norway has still enough oil to finance it's isolation, this won't change.

[Bluesman 0]

Instead of making sure we specialize in knowledge orientated production we subsidise a coming bancrupcy. We're well and truly f**cked.

As long as Norway has still enough oil to finance it's isolation, this won't change.

It has already changed. Norwegian population is more EU friendly than ever before according to polls. Maybe that will change with our NO to EMU.

We(Swedes) want them closer and they want us closer. Norwegian jokes nonwithstanding .

BM

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Coming back to the financial points, AFAIK the richest soon-to-be EU member is Cz? But their GDP is only about 1/2 to 1/3 of that of Greece and Portugal, the poorest nations in the EU

Slovenia is the richest upcomming member, with its GDP which surpasses UK's if I remember correct. Don't show the old 'behind the iron curtain' view of Eastern europe, they're economically not that far behind us...

-Post

That's why I said "AFAIK" and then went on to ask for numbers I really don't know how strong/weak they are economically.

Bluesman, I didn't know this about the reduced subsidies. That is good to know. And I agree completely with the huge consumer market, this is indeed very exciting! Seems like the EU is moving away from traditional trade and is becoming more focused on services and consumer products, rather than traditional shipbuilding/mining/etc.

What problems with the ecology do you mean, though? Europe is environmentally one of the healthiest continents on Earth, despite the two oil spills and the forest fires. At least we don't feed our people with GM and hormone induced crap And we don't drive that many cars that consume as much fuel as a bloody ship

[Bluesman 0]

Two main problems being Erosion and De-forestation of Central Europe. Noone can have avoided the catastropical consequences of the numerous floods in Germany, Poland and Chech republic. I know Germany is taking the problems seriously but I'm more concerned about the growing economies in Chech rep and Poland.

When i first passed the border between Germany and Chechoslovakia(as it was then) I was really depressed by the enourmous areas with nothing but dead forest. It was then that I realised just how lucky we are up here with the relativelly helthy nature.

BM

[Postduifje 0]

Two main problems being Erosion and De-forestation of Central Europe. Noone can have avoided the catastropical consequences of the numerous floods in Germany, Poland and Chech republic. I know Germany is taking the problems seriously but I'm more concerned about the growing economies in Chech rep and Poland.

When i first passed the border between Germany and Chechoslovakia(as it was then) I was really depressed by the enourmous areas with nothing but dead forest. It was then that I realised just how lucky we are up here with the relativelly helthy nature.

BM

Hmm, strange to hear that. I've seen quite allot in Europe, and never have I seen more lively and beatifull forests as in Czech Republic  

Try passing the border by train at Dresden. You'll be leaving the heavy industry polluted wastelands of Germany, and entering the beautifull river- and forest scenery of Czech  

-Post