The Iraq Thread 2

[Acecombat 0]

So people still think of these bombers as saddam loyalists?

[theavonlady 2]

I don't really get though what they can gain by attacking relief organizations. I'd understand the propaganda value of attackin US troops - but the red cross?  

My guess is that anyone who provides relief or benefits or tries to bring civilized order that inadvertantly benefits the current regime (or those that are happy that Saddam no longer rules), are viewed as collaberators and targets by these butchers.

How many reports have there been of brutal murders of relief workers in Afghanistan, kidnapped and then shot in the head or similar.

[walker 0]

So people still think of these bombers as saddam loyalists?  

Hi Acecombat

Yep

Sadam used exactly the same methods to get into power in the first place. He learned it then; he wont have forgotten it. In fact he is probably reliving his youthful days as a freedom fighter when he fought against the royalist despots who rulled before the Bath party came to power.

The US army is not the most profesional body to deal with civil control. The young kids in it dont understand Muslim sencibilities. They make enemies by aiming and even shooting guns at the wrong people. Their intelegence system is so crap they can be manipulated in to attacking the wrong people (something Sadam has proved adept at)

It is an outside force in the first place. This kind of action serves to alienate it further from the populace especialy if timed to coincide with riots organised by Bath party sympathers.

The guy knows that by screwing up the country he can in the long term make people hark back to a mythical time when he was in power and things were good.

A chaotic country means more room for criminal behaviour so he is probably doing a deal with the gangster element that existed there even in his time. He will know who they are and he has container loads of US dollars to pay for it all.

I am not sure but did he let all prisoners out of Jail before the Americans arrived? perhaps someone can search the news sources. I may be wrong

If I was not an Anarchist and wanted to gain power from Sadam's position these are exactly the things I would do.

Sadam is not thick, he is not a coward, he is just the kind of guy who gets to be a Despot.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

I'm not so sure that it's Saddam loyalists. Suicide bombings doesn't exactly strike me as their MO. So far the only direct link have been remnants of the fedayeen who have been carrying out guerilla style attacks on US troops (hit and run RPG:ing, light MG fire, grenades etc).

What is not so often mentioned is that Iraq, like Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation has become a focal point for all forms of radical muslim factions. I'd sooner believe that these were the acts of religiously motivated terrorists.

But, who knows?

[theavonlady 2]

I think it's a combination.

Recent news reports mentioned such things as the capture of a Syrian national in a botched attack attempt.

And we've all seen Bin Ladden's latest, urging Moslems to rise up against foreign forces in Iraq.

[walker 0]

Hi Denoir

I think Sadam is an acomplished manipulator. To say he is not capable of using the weak minded and using them in exactly the same way Bin Laden does is misreading an acomplished clever despot.

People who have no success in their lives and are suicidal will often believe they will in some way be redeemed in some phyric sence by killing someone else or by a commiting a famous/infamous act of violence.

Others can manipulted in to such a state of mind by standard psychological techniques.

The manipulation of religious/idiological doccuments and beliefs or trumped up accusations can be used to lend credence to the beliefs. Other methods are used; socialy surround the target indiviual with people who will support the belief.

It can after a person has been psychologicaly broken; by personal circumstances, say loss of a loved one, this happens a lot when your country has been at war for so long not to mention under embargo. With the amount of sons/daughters/spouses that died dont you think some of them could and would be set up to this level?

The above even affects very strong minded inteligent people.

You can use psychological and physical violence or drugs.

The above can even be used on very strong minded inteligent people.

Denoir you are an inteligence officer you know this. Its the same process that alters a soldier so that they can kill. It is half the reason your put through basic training. It is then expanded in your special forces training to teach you how to resist interigation. Many countries use it in their interigation techniques.

The type four or is it type three assassin is exactly the right kind of psychological makeup on which to perform this systematic altering of the persons socialisation.

And you can always just lie to them.

Sadam is more than capable of using people like that. That is what happened in the Iranianian Embasy seige in London. Iraqi people exactly like that were used at his behest by his Secret Service.

Put youself in Sadams shoes bear in mind, that as brutal as he is, he is probably as inteligent as anyone on this forum you dont get to rule a country without a fair amount of brains. Would you not be doing this if you were that brutal?

Heck he was wound up by his Bath Party superiors to be one of these assasins when he began his carreer. He is bathed in the process. Then as often happens he had a moment of realisation as he became older or possibly while in jail for his assasination atempt and became instead of Radicalised Actavist a Radicalised Manipulator taking on the role of his former masters.

Is he asking for and getting support from Palistinian groups to do this? Damn right he has long term links with them. I can just here the conversation "Hey boss of the Islamic (Jihad/Crusade) you want to sell me some type three assassin we are on the same side fighting the Americans or I got a crate of money to pay for them I will provide the explosives and transport costs" Its no diferent than the Taliban Afghans buying stingers from the CIA back when they were friends.

Kind Regards Walker

[Acecombat 0]

I think it's a combination.

Recent news reports mentioned such things as the capture of a Syrian national in a botched attack attempt.

And we've all seen Bin Ladden's latest, urging Moslems to rise up against foreign forces in Iraq.

LOL dont tell me you are one of those believers who still believes hes alive somewhere in hiding (probably with Elvis ).

I think these guys are random attacks by those militia groups which came to Iraq prior the war from all over Africa and heck some from arab countries too to help Iraq fight off the yanks , i guess they never got a ticket back home so they are making themselves useful now since they got nothing to lose.

Still though whatever the cause the american army should leave , putting up pathetic excuses as we sent in little 'boys' to in to Iraq and they dont know when to pull the trigger and whom on makes it looks like as if its 3d FPS going on in there , they should leave Iraq as is i doubt if Saddam will come back now hes lost all his power and credibility , didnt you all readthat TIMES article denoir once posted about how the US army infiltrated the spy network ? I dont think Saddam has the internal support now to take over the country , its best that his own people find him and kill him it would settle the whole issue in their country itself.

[walker 0]

Hi Acecombat

Your missing how many Iraqi Bath party burocrats lost their jobs and wont get anything like it after de-bathification. Add to that 10s of Security internal represion organisation that existed. That is a high quality group of managers many with military background and well educated.

That is a support and command structure

Your missing the Billions Sadam has at his disposal both in cash in trucks and in banks in numbered accounts abroad.

That is finance

Your missing the radicalised actavists created by the war, anti western feelings, the embargo I could go on

That is manpower

Your missing the fact that Sadam is an inteligent and Brutal man who has tasted absolute power a drug more adicctive than Crack Cocain and who has had it taken from him by the very same people who were his friends and supporters and who have killed his eldest sons.

That is motivation

Your missing the fact that he is still there with all that at his dispoal.

That is oportunity

Sadam is far too ambitious and inteligent a person not to be the prime suspect in 90% of the attacks and their Strategic level organisation. Certainly Al-Queda could be a suspect in organising the bombings on a once every six month cycle but they have not got the resources to do so continuously for many months all across the country.

Most of their operatives are based outside Iraq before the Second Gulf War. Sadam would have had them shot on sight if they were not there at his express request. He was never interested in the kind of Islamic (Crusade/Jihad) they are. The original Islamic (Crusade/Jihad) people were Iran based his bitter enemies.

There might be a few in the country now but they are easy to prey to being betrayed for a US reward unless they are within an existing support and command structure. With the exception of the Shiites who hate Al Queda almost as much as the Americans. No such structure other than Sadams Exists.

Why he could even put such a structure round an individual in such a way that the Al Queda member thought he was in a group of like minded individuals when he was in fact in Sadams Grasp. These are standard intelegence techniques the sort of things the KGB, CIA and French inteligence services would have taught the Iraqi inteligence service when were a client state of each of those countries. Of course that is assuming the Iraqi inteligence service did not know these techniques in the first place.

Heck Bahgdad was theatre for intelegence wars for at least 100 years I know of. The reality is that with Civilisation and politics being practiced there for four thousand years these techniques are at least that old.

Err by the way the bit about the US soldiers was not an excuse it was an explanation of why you dont use those kind of people or such an inexperienced command structure for Civil Control.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

I think Sadam is an acomplished manipulator. To say he is not capable of using the weak minded and using them in exactly the same way Bin Laden does is misreading an acomplished clever despot.

Perhaps, perhaps. I don't think however you should underestimate the resentment between Baathists and Muslim fundamentalists. Saddam spent 30 years persecuting the Shi'a. Although he from GW1 started using Islam as a propaganda method, I don't think many bought it.

While I'm sure that there is some level of cooperation, some realpolitk - especially from Saddam loyalists trying to get friendly with fundamentalists - their ultimate agendas are different. The fundamentalists want the Americans out of a Muslim country while the Baathists want to come back to power. Complete anarchy won't help Saddam & Co back to power. Even if the Americans were to leave the country today, there would be very little chance for the Baathists to come back. And the fundamentalists would be very pleased with that. They are the ones that would mostly benefit from total chaos and the creation of an unsubstainable situation for the US troops.

Of course, it's difficult to know exactly what both parties are thinking. The attacks on the police stations is very consistent with Saddam loyalists. The attack on the Red Cross and the style (suicide bombings) is not. So it's possible that they've joined forces at some level, but that can hardly be a sustained relationship as the groups hate each other very much. The question is do they hate the occupying forces even more?

[walker 0]

....So it's possible that they've joined forces at some level, but that can hardly be a sustained relationship as the groups hate each other very much. The question is do they hate the occupying forces even more?

Hi Denoir

A truism

My enemiess enemy is my friend.

Al Queda are short of cash and Materials and do not currently have a secure base. They have lost their official support and blind eye turning by the CIA, and CIA client states in the Middle and Far East.

Sadam needs type three assasins.

Kind Regards Walker

[walker 0]

Hi Denoir

There are two oposed fundamentalist so called Muslim/Islamic radical groups.

1) The Iranian backed early groups that are Shiite and include I think Isalmic Jihad in the Palistinian (Freedom fighters/terrorist) Suprisingly these rarely attacked Americans.

2) The Pakistani/Saudi Arabian based and originaly CIA created and backed Al Queda.

Some History

Half the reason the Muslim religion has been getting bad press lately is that has been used as a puppet of CIA policy in Afghanistan against the Soviet invasion then as usual the CIA did not have an endgame for what to do with its funded puppets such as those in Al Queda.

Into this pot you need to put another ingredient the young children of the Muhjahadeen the true original freedom fighters of Afghanistan. They were sent to safety in the tribal areas of Pakistan. What to do with all those kids?

The Mhadrassas were set up part funded by Saudi Arabia and organised by Pakistani Saudi and Yemeni fiery preachers who their former states were glad to see the back of. Some bright spark, probably in the CIA, thought the war could be going on for a while. The longer the better as it drained the soviet economy and mesmerized it's politicians. So a good trick would be to get these kids well indoctrinated in fighting the godless. The US bean counters long ago realized that foreign labor is cheaper, that applies to spies as much as anything so the CIA has long outsourced its manned spying to local franchises. In step the Saudi Client states US trained Secret Service.

Enter Osama Bin Lahden former alcoholic playboy millionaire who lived in Saudi Arabia but originally from the Yemen now a born again Muslim with a mission and the charisma of a reformed sinner. Marry that with a bunch similar bureaucrat types from the same area. Their Job funnel monies US weapons and trained zealots, true believers, freedom fighters and nutters (every country has some) from Saudi Arabia the rest of the Muslim world and for the CIA to those fighting the soviets.

The Muhjahadeen won the war the soviets left.

Then the fight began a small group of Saudi Pakistani backed fighters were avialable and both the Saudis and Pakistan wanted somone on Iran's North Eastern border this little known group became the Taliban. They never had much power at this stage and Afghanistan might have developed in to a stable none agressive administration probably under the hero and most succesful fighter agains the Soviets and who never got any CIA backing; Masoud.

To begin with the CIA liked the idea of another client state and helped them kill off or subvert the other factions in particular the true Muhjahadeen but over time the Taliban became more anti US.

The CIA tried to pay them off and send them back to their countries of origin such as Saudi Arabia and the Yemen. Their Governments did not want them (Would you want a bunch of trained insurgents in your country?) the Afghanis didn't want them. Plus as I said Saudi Arabia wanted to pay Iran back for the bombings in Mecca and get an anti Shiite neighbour on the NE border of Iran The Sunni Pakistan government of the time wanted the same and saw a way to caspian oil and a pipeline through Afghanistan into Pakistan and out through the Rhan of Kush. The Saudi business men liked that one a lot and the CIA did not want the Iranians to have the Caspian Oil so they turned a blind eye even when US citizens diasapeared.

Iran wants that same pipeline through Iran and has a Caspian coastline.

The CIA managed to give about 2000 of the (foreign/mercenaries/religous fighters/ insurgents) fake passports and documentation for Algeria, Sudan and Morocco the Saudi Government and the Americans helped pay for it through trade deals etc for those countries. Some went to work for the countries in their security service they went to, some probably work for the CIA and have US passports, others became normal people working in shops, factories, TV stations, airports etc. about 200 became the core of a terrorist group and provided the basis for the men in the planes in 9 11 many of whom had Algerian passports but were born in and around Saudi Arabia.

Some who didn't take the CIA pension plan went to Bosnia and latter a few die-hards from that group went to Chechnya. Many had CIA and criminal links that alowed them to get fake passports. Some of those became normal people working in shops, factories, TV stations, airports etc. A few live the fantasy twilight world of deep cover agents.

Another group stayed in Afghanistan some to live normal lives, others to live as warlords or run drugs

The final faction the Taliban continued to carry on their (Crusade/Jihad) these had access to the Mahdrasas and all those Young boys schooled to folow the orders of their religious leaders a ready made fit unquestioning army.

With that force and Pakistan and the Saudis support the Taliban took power and the Mhadrassa boys killed the true heroes of the Afghan War the Muhjahadeen even Masoud. So the greatest sin of that war was that the Mhadrassa boy Sons killed their Muhjahadeen Fathers who had stayed behind to fight and had sent them to safety. It sounds stranger than fiction but it is all verifiable fact.

As you said Sadam is against the Iranian backed Islamic (Jihad/Crusade)

But he is less against Al Queda.

They might not like him as a former US lacky and Sinner but hey he can repent like bin laden or at least pretend to.

Kind Regards Walker

[Acecombat 0]

There are some seriously wrong facts in there Walker i'll point them out later.....

[theavonlady 2]

Arbrams destroyed, 2 tankers killed, US and Ukraine soldiers wounded.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Pentagon weights whether to shift intelligence resources from WMD search to counterinsurgence.

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 — As violence has spiraled in Iraq, top U.S. officials have debated pulling intelligence officers off the so-far unsuccessful hunt for weapons of mass destruction and reassigning them to counterinsurgency efforts, officials said Wednesday.

Quote[/b] ]A particular problem, the team said, has been finding enough competent Arabic interpreters to help American forces. Many of the interpreters don’t have much training for their jobs and only enough specialized knowledge “to tell the difference between a burro and a burrito,†the Army report said.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/986164.asp

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 29 — A key member of Saddam Hussein’s inner circle is believed to be directing the series of attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq, U.S. military and intelligence sources told NBC News. Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, the No. 2 man in the Iraqi government, is one of the few remaining members of the Iraq leadership to remain at large since the Saddam regime was toppled by U.S.-led forces.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/Saving_Jessica_Lynch/

NBC'c promo for their Jessica Lynch movie.

[ran 0]

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/Saving_Jessica_Lynch/

NBC'c promo for their Jessica Lynch movie.

good , i like comedies and science fiction

[The Frenchman 0]

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/Saving_Jessica_Lynch/

NBC'c promo for their Jessica Lynch movie.

good , i like comedies and science fiction

lol

[SPQR 0]

It's better for your health to be a white girl, wounded because she lost control of her vehicle (honors, medals, money, rights and dollars, a new house), than being black and being shot by real bullets (GET BACK TO YOUR disgusting GHETTO and SHUT IT UP!!!!!).  

W. and his team should have asked Leni Reifenstal to make this brainless movie before her death. She has a got experience and CV for such "patrioc" movies...  

[EiZei 0]

So, it is going to be something like this? :

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=15674

[Acecombat 0]

Jessica Lynch profiteering from book, says dead soldier's father

By Hugh Davies in Los Angeles

(Filed: 06/09/2003)

Jessica Lynch, the American soldier whose rescue from an Iraqi hospital has won her a $1 million (Å640,000) book deal, was accused yesterday of profiting from the deaths of her comrades caught in the ambush that led to her capture.

Randy Kiehl, whose son James, from Comfort, Texas, was among seven soldiers killed when their convoy was surprised by Iraqi forces in southern Iraq in March, said Miss Lynch, 20, was "a profiteer" after the contract was announced this week.

The deal had already raised eyebrows. Miss Lynch, who has been discharged from the US army after sustaining long-term injuries in the ambush, was mistakenly cast as a heroine and decorated with the Purple Heart after incorrect reports that she emptied her rifle in a firefight. --> Nuts n bolts??

In fact the supply clerk, then a private, was hurt in the ambush when her Humvee vehicle crashed into a truck in the convoy of troops from the 507th Maintenance Company. She has also said that she was unable to remember much of what happened during and after the ambush but felt she "owed" it to the American people and the military to tell her story.

Mr Kiehl said yesterday he was furious about the book deal. "I don't have a problem about her writing about her life, but when it involves not only my son but the others who were wounded or killed, why should one person make money over the deaths of other people?" he asked.

"Where's the $1 million book deal for the other members of the 507th who were killed? How do they tell their story? Now she's a profiteer because what she did was in the line of duty."

Mr Kiehl, whose son was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star, also directed his anger at the publisher, Alfred A Knopf, "who waved that $1 million cheque in front of her".

I Am a Soldier, Too: The Jessica Lynch Story is being written rapidly for publication next month and is expected to become a bestseller.

[ran 0]

she's writing a jokes compilation now ?

[EiZei 0]

W. and his team should have asked Leni Reifenstal to make this brainless movie before her death. She has a got experience and CV for such "patrioc" movies...

I think John Milius would have been much better choice, he has proven his skills portraying heroic US fighters with gems like these:

[SPQR 0]

Sorry EiZei, the link is dead  

It's amazing how losing he memory could transform her into a hero warrior amazon, able to scare Conan the barbarian himself  

The iraki version of the rescue is really interesting, as Mrs Lynch was wounded by a car accident, well-treated and not even untortured. The SpecForces seemed to use plastic bullets, but that could be explained by the fact that real bullet would penetrate walls, like a hot knife in butter, creating more havoc and more wounded or killed civilans ( politicaly inacceptable).

But a black soldier girl in the same ambushed unit (If I'm right, the one we saw on irakian TV), who was bullet wounded and lived with her mates as prisonners, was told by the Pentagon to stay in the shadow and shut it up...

Because I work in a  "multiracial" unit (Race is non-sense in the genetic point of view, just a stupid ideology from the 19° century), where skills & friendship are the more important, color doesn't matter AT ALL, only the acts have sense.  

[Tamme 0]

Quote[/b] ]

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/Saving_Jessica_Lynch/

NBC'c promo for their Jessica Lynch movie.

Americans aren't going to believe this BS, are they?