The Iraq Thread 2

[Akira 0]

The fact still remains, someone DID lie, or make up information, or falsify reports. Call it what you want, someone wasnt playing by the rules, thats for sure.

It could be any of those things you mentioned. It could also be poor judgements, assessments and post-9/11 paranoia.

Don't get me wrong. If nothing eventually turns up, I think the entire decision making process should be investigated thoroughly. If anyone lied and such lies lead to government policy decisions, they should be put on trial. If definitive blame can be assigned to agencies or individuals for sub-standard performance, those directly responsible should be asked to resign or relieved of their positions.

However, if there were no such lies and if the information gathered was legitimate, then what's happened is simply history.

The truth may lie somewhere between those two scenarios. Right now, who knows?!

Thats the thing about "plausibal deniability." The person that is most directly responsible with decision making won't be replaced or put on trial, simply because he "didn't know."

I speak of Georgie Porgie.

We all agree a Captain of a ship, or a General of troops, or whatever is responsible for his soldiers and underlings around him. If one mis-steps or breaks the law while under their command, the commander is responsible. In the military "I didn't know" would get you court-martialed. You are the commander. It is your job to know. If you have someone under you that doesn't volunteer pertaniant information, that relates directly to future operations, or that lies, or deceives, that says something about your judgement capabilities does it not? You can't even judge a persons worthiness for a job, how the hell can you judge policy issues of major importance?

Why is that not so with Georgie? Is he not the Commander-In-Chief? If his underlings lied, decieved, or "made a mistake" he should still be held responsible, he should have better quality control, better cross-checking, better whatever.

Is there any doubt that TBA wanted Iraq bad? And not to shortly after 9/11?

Iraq Post-9/11 (For FSPilot)

Iraq and 9/11

No one can deny the massive propoganda push after 9/11 that brought about the Second Gulf War. Look around you. And no one even cares to educate themselves. "Well, Fox News said..."

Educate Yourself Damn It!

To go beyond Fox News' flashy graphics. Do a search for anything that we are talking about. Try and find a Fox News link. Good luck!

Read something other than domestic papers. Read sites from England, Germany, Russia, Japan, India, and yes dare I say it, the Islamic News. (*Is that a knock I hear on my door*)

One can't even say "Hey, I think this isn't right." without be shouted down or shouted at. Or dismissed with a sneer and that old favorite "Anti-American".

I challenge anyone to point out how I am anti-American (and try not to tie being anti-American and anti-Bush. I could care less if Bush gets hit by a bus. But I care a great deal when he starts screwin' with this country.) What is more anti-American? Saying the government can spy on me, or rejecting it?

FSPilot, continues to argue that for 12 years WMD wasn't found, so give the US more time. What the hell kinda argument is that?

If experts, scouring a country for 12 years or so destroyed most or all of the WMDs as documented:

Iraq WMDs

Iraq WMD 2

Where for art thou WMD?

Maybe under this rock?

Straight From The Horses Mouth Notice that it gives tables and explanations of weapons verified to be destroyed. Yes I said verified.

And you are welcome to peruse the entire listing here:

UNSCOM Docs

Then were are the WMDs that threaten us directly? Where is the proof that they exist, FSPilot? I have shown proof of verifed destroyed weapons. Where is your proof of existing WMD?  

EDIT: Just saw this on IMdb:

Quote[/b] ]Viewers Demand More "Patriotic" Coverage

A substantial segment -- 46 percent -- of the American public believes that the news media are becoming too critical of America and that such criticism is weakening national defense, according to findings by a Pew Research Center poll. The vast majority of those surveyed -- 70 percent -- also believes that the media ought to take a more pro-American stand in its reporting of the U.S. actions in Iraq and the war on terrorism. The Pew survey further found that those who are the most critical of the media are likely to be devotees of the Fox News Channel.

See the story here:

IMDb

[bn880 5]

"And if the WMD is not found there will be a hell of a lot of reperations due to IRAQ. The US and UK can say goodbye to any tax cuts or health care improvements for the next decade. If the worlds police man smashes up the wrong countries home they had better have good public liability insurance."

How is anyone going to get America to pay anything, when they wont even pay the UN what they owe in membership fees?

Good question, actually it's obvious that Americans should punish their own administration.

[Balschoiw 0]

It´s good to see that americans like Akira do see the failures made and think about consequences for future decisions.

I hope this shows a trend among the US citizens. They have to be the ones to question their government. And they have to make sure that lies and presidency don´t fit.

When lies are used to justify a war the administration has to take full response and resign. People die and have died for lies about iraq. The people of the USA have to make sure that something like this will not happen again.

Same for the Brits btw.

Thumbs up Akira.

[Tamme 0]

It´s good to see that americans like Akira do see the failures made and think about consequences for future decisions.

I hope this shows a trend among the US citizens. They have to be the ones to question their government. And they have to make sure that lies and presidency don´t fit.

When lies are used to justify a war the administration has to take full response and resign. People die and have died for lies about iraq. The people of the USA have to make sure that something like this will not happen again.

Same for the Brits btw.

Thumbs up Akira.

"Proof!"

[FallenPaladin 0]

There`s enough "Proof!!!" in the posts above. We are repeating it again and again, why don`t you read it?!?

[Balschoiw 0]

guess he suffers from the FS syndrom already

[bn880 5]

Well the Brits gave been questioning the evidence all along, and breathing down hard on Blair, but now it's time to dispose of the "hooligans" in power. (well in a legal structured manner if possible)

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I said it does not matter if the administrations lied (straight crimnal behaviour) or were stupid. (criminal neglegence)

Both cases are adequate for their removal.

I personaly dont think there is proof either way yet as to the existance of WMD in IRAQ at the time of war.

I do believe it behoves the adminstrations to come up with the proofs and to do so in a time frame of a few months say late September as a deadline.

Failure to do so will make their positions unteneable and public opinion will remove them. This is the only course open to a true democracy and the only advantage democracy has over other forms of government.

If the WMD is not found and the two adminstrations do not resign or are not removed by their countries political system, how are they any better than that of Sadam.

Besides sacking adminstrations is the cheapest option for both countries. They can at least recover some of the reperation costs from the former adminstrations.

Kind Regards Walker

[Tovarish 0]

Quote[/b] ]Viewers Demand More "Patriotic" Coverage

A substantial segment -- 46 percent -- of the American public believes that the news media are becoming too critical of America and that such criticism is weakening national defense, according to findings by a Pew Research Center poll. The vast majority of those surveyed -- 70 percent -- also believes that the media ought to take a more pro-American stand in its reporting of the U.S. actions in Iraq and the war on terrorism. The Pew survey further found that those who are the most critical of the media are likely to be devotees of the Fox News Channel.

See the story here:

IMDb

That's fucking insane!!!

I thought the great thing about the US was supposed to be freedom of speech, the right to question the government, ect ect....

Do these people not realize what they want is essentially to have their media act like Pravda did during the Cold War?

"The glorious war against The Commie-Islamic terrorists is being won, the WMD's have escaped into evil Iran, but our heroic forces shall find them.

Commie-Islamic agents have infiltrated our Fatherland and are attempting to spread discontent about the economy and undermind the authority of our glorious President Bush. True Americans - do not be fooled by these anti-democratic tactics. All is well in the United Republican States of America".

[booradley60 0]

I wish they could get you guys on TV and sway some opinions in America. I'm very afraid that Bush will get 4 more years. Damn, I wish I was old enough to vote....

[ralphwiggum 6]

RalphWiggum

Quote[/b] ]where's proof of that?

Proof of what?  That you don't have any proof either, that you're going to point to the uranium claims, that they're not covering it up or that there's no coverup?  

where's proof that they are not lying, not covering up?

Quote[/b] ]It could be any of those things you mentioned. It could also be poor judgements, assessments and post-9/11 paranoia.

good point. As Rummy said, they had same evidence, but looked it at from different perspective. unfortunately, if you can't get your head straight in time of crisis, that's incompetency.

Quote[/b] ]The Pew survey further found that those who are the most critical of the media are likely to be devotees of the Fox News Channel.

well, the same media that brought you 'Married with Children', 'Who wants to marry a Millionaire', has been forerunner in airing programs that were criticized by conservatives.

the unfortunate aspect of this war is that no matter which administration comes next in we are stuck. US's abrupt withdrawal, without any strong gov't to replace fallen regime would bring unstability to the Iraq, thus causing more reasons to have US be the target of hatred.

[walker 0]

I wish they could get you guys on TV and sway some opinions in America.  I'm very afraid that Bush will get 4 more years.  Damn, I wish I was old enough to vote....

Hi booradley60

Dont count them out yet it may be that the administrations come up with proof of the WMD. In which case they dont deserve to be removed on such grounds.

The only thing is they have to come up with the proof of WMD in Iraq at the time of the start of the war.

If they fail to do so in a reasonable period of time then there is no reason for their continued existance in power.

The very legitimacy of their power is based on their finding the WMD in time. At this moment their legitamacy is looking shaky.

Kind Regards Walker

[booradley60 0]

The way they're beginning to point fingers has me pretty sure that they have no faith in the WMD claims. I'm not holding my breath for them in 2004.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Have a look!

Collection of best Iraq war photographers!

[Balschoiw 0]

hmm something´s not working with the link Albert.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]It´s good to see that americans like Akira do see the failures made and think about consequences for future decisions.

I hope this shows a trend among the US citizens. They have to be the ones to question their government. And they have to make sure that lies and presidency don´t fit.

When lies are used to justify a war the administration has to take full response and resign. People die and have died for lies about iraq. The people of the USA have to make sure that something like this will not happen again.

Same for the Brits btw.

Thumbs up Akira.

ah, the judge, jury, and executioner has spoken. How can you be so naive as to believe in all this justification crap? Politicians do the smoke and mirrors thing everyday, and I'm sure all of yours are just as guilty. This has been brewing for the last 50 years. Don't think that ANY of your countries are not guilty of some part of making the middle east the nasty little quagmire that it is. It is a nasty nasty situation politically and intelligence wise. What does everyone expect everything to smell like roses? This shit isn't funny, and sooner or later one of us is going to get a dirty bomb on our back porch, then we'll have something to bitch about.

[mr burns 132]

hmm something´s not working with the link Albert.

There´s an apostroph at the end of the link, after the .htm, when you remove it it works fine.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

oh grrrr Balschoiw you always say that. you should know that I always need two approaches..it isnt the first time this happens to me! You know that I am OFP-VIP-2002 in the category of "most post-editings"

here we go again

Collection of best Iraq war photographers!

[walker 0]

Hi USSoldier11B

ah, the judge, jury, and executioner has spoken. How can you be so naive as to believe in all this justification crap? Politicians do the smoke and mirrors thing everyday, and I'm sure all of yours are just as guilty. This has been brewing for the last 50 years.

That politicians lie is not in dipute but when they get caught they have to resign. Democracy should at least apear to be honnest.

I personaly think there is no proof yet that either of the two administrations lied but whether they lied or not they accused iraq of having WMD. They then acted as Judge Jury and Executiuoner in the real sense people died including civilians, brave US, British and Iraqi soldiers and maybe some not so brave regime members. Whether the proof was trumped up a genuine accedent wrongful prosecutions have to be paid for.

Don't think that ANY of your countries are not guilty of some part of making the middle east the nasty little quagmire that it is.

Yes when the UK and France invaded Egypt the US and many other countries rightly condemed them and their governments fell.

It is a nasty nasty situation politically and intelligence wise. What does everyone expect everything to smell like roses? This shit isn't funny, and sooner or later one of us is going to get a dirty bomb on our back porch, then we'll have something to bitch about.

Indeed and who will be able to blame them when we invade their countries on a pretext of their having WMD that was a threat to us. Our adminstrations have to come up with proof of the WMD to have any legitimacy.

If they don't come up with the proof of WMD the administrations must resign or be removed by Vote of No Confidence for the UK and Impeachment for the US otherwise they are no diferent than Sadams Regime.

So now if the the US and UK administrations dont come up with proof of WMD they have to go and we have to pay a lot of reperations.

Kind Regards Walker

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Viewers Demand More "Patriotic" Coverage

A substantial segment -- 46 percent -- of the American public believes that the news media are becoming too critical of America and that such criticism is weakening national defense, according to findings by a Pew Research Center poll. The vast majority of those surveyed -- 70 percent -- also believes that the media ought to take a more pro-American stand in its reporting of the U.S. actions in Iraq and the war on terrorism. The Pew survey further found that those who are the most critical of the media are likely to be devotees of the Fox News Channel.

See the story here:

IMDb

FUCK

[FSPilot 0]

bgrnorway

Quote[/b] ]Hey comical ali - your reasoning is as credible as the thief in chief's arguing. Is it really so hard for you to accept the fact that Bush lied? If you can't manage to see through the charade - can't you at least admit that the "evidence" that paved way for US opinion to go to war was a result of "very selective and uncritical" use of information?

You haven't provided any evidence that Bush lied to anybody.  You've provided evidence that the British had an intelligence snafu, which Bush then pointed out.

If that's your idea of lying then I've run out of witty things to say.

Longingus

Quote[/b] ]The fact still remains, someone DID lie, or make up information, or falsify reports. Call it what you want, someone wasnt playing by the rules, thats for sure.

That's not a fact at all.  You're just pointing fingers because you don't like the administration.  There has been -no- evidence provided that the president lied to anybody about anything.  Intelligence snafu?  Maybe.  Lied?  That's stretching it, a lot.

Akira

Quote[/b] ]Why is that not so with Georgie? Is he not the Commander-In-Chief? If his underlings lied, decieved, or "made a mistake" he should still be held responsible, he should have better quality control, better cross-checking, better whatever.

Would you hold a captain responsible if someone on his ship was dealing drugs?  Even if he investigated it, criticized it, and prosecuted the sailor?

RalphWiggum

Quote[/b] ]where's proof that they are not lying, not covering up?

They're innocent until proven guilty.  Wheres the proof that they did any of the things you're accusing them of?

[Longinius 1]

"They're innocent until proven guilty. Wheres the proof that they did any of the things you're accusing them of? "

Interesting how you use "innocent until proven guilty" when its concerning your guys. You should maybe apply that standard to all people, and not just when it suits your own purposes.

[walker 0]

Hi FSPilot

You haven't provided any evidence that Bush lied to anybody.  You've provided evidence that the British had an intelligence snafu, which Bush then pointed out.

If that's your idea of lying then I've run out of witty things to say.

.....

That's not a fact at all.  You're just pointing fingers because you don't like the administration.  There has been -no- evidence provided that the president lied to anybody about anything.  Intelligence snafu?  Maybe.  Lied?  That's stretching it, a lot.

Lied or was stupid makes no diference if the WMD is not found they went to war and killed many Brave US, UK and Iraqi Soldiers as well many inocent civilians and OK a few criminal political regime members. Politicians who make wrong decisions of that magnitude, that causes them to go to war have to resign or be removed from office or be the same grade of criminal regime as that which they fought.

Akira

Quote[/b] ]Why is that not so with Georgie? Is he not the Commander-In-Chief? If his underlings lied, decieved, or "made a mistake" he should still be held responsible, he should have better quality control, better cross-checking, better whatever.

Would you hold a captain responsible if someone on his ship was dealing drugs?  Even if he investigated it, criticized it, and prosecuted the sailor?

Analagies are a fraught system for discusions but to continue your analogy

In this case the captain of the ship transported the goods and took them to New York streest to sell.

RalphWiggum

Quote[/b] ]where's proof that they are not lying, not covering up?

They're innocent until proven guilty.  Wheres the proof that they did any of the things you're accusing them of?

Actualy the US and UK administrations accused the Iraqi regime of posesion of WMD then apointed them self Judge Jury and Executioner. Now they must come up with the Promised Proof of WMD or resign or by a process of Vote of No Confidence in the case of the UK and Impeachment in the US be removed from Office. After that Reperations to IRAQ and dead or wounded US and UK soldiers have to be decided.

This is all IF the Promised Proof of WMD are not found

I leave it to you FSPilot to suggest a reasonable length of time to wait for the proof of WMD to be shown I personaly think they should be given until the end of this September.

I think the US and UK adminstrations need to pull their fingers out and find the proof of Iraqi WMD at the time of going to war

Kind Regards Walker

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Lol. ouch FS-Pilot. That was a boomerang!

Try to get out of this trap!

Innocent untill proven guilty. Well maybe we should call saddam back home.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Akira

Quote[/b] ]

Why is that not so with Georgie? Is he not the Commander-In-Chief? If his underlings lied, decieved, or "made a mistake" he should still be held responsible, he should have better quality control, better cross-checking, better whatever.

Would you hold a captain responsible if someone on his ship was dealing drugs?  Even if he investigated it, criticized it, and prosecuted the sailor?

Is it not the Captains job to make sure that that doesn't happen on his ship? If drugs were being dealt on his ship because of "lax security" or "lax intelligence" or because he failed to fully implement his job, would he not be removed?

Quote[/b] ]bgrnorway

Quote[/b] ]

Hey comical ali - your reasoning is as credible as the thief in chief's arguing. Is it really so hard for you to accept the fact that Bush lied? If you can't manage to see through the charade - can't you at least admit that the "evidence" that paved way for US opinion to go to war was a result of "very selective and uncritical" use of information?

You haven't provided any evidence that Bush lied to anybody.  You've provided evidence that the British had an intelligence snafu, which Bush then pointed out.

Enough with the British. We are talking about the US, or have you forgotten the "intelligence snafu" all over the news? We are both guilty of "intelligence snafu's". In the military that is called "incompetence" and the offending officers would be removed. Why not THE top officer? The one who assured us of Iraq's imminent threat. Of known WMD sites and weapons. Where are they? If they knew about them, why haven't they been brought to the light of day. Nothing has been discovered. Not even a trace (WMD's leave trace's ya know?).

So I ask again. Where is your proof that WMDs existed? I, and others, have provided ample links that state out right that large portions were destroyed, and their WMD industry seriously curtailed. Links please. Where is your proof?  

Quote[/b] ]"They're innocent until proven guilty.  Wheres the proof that they did any of the things you're accusing them of? "

Interesting how you use "innocent until proven guilty" when its concerning your guys. You should maybe apply that standard to all people, and not just when it suits your own purposes.

To put it simpler. Why are we innocent but not Iraq? No substantial proof has been shown of WMD exsistence in Iraq for the past year, and yet they are guitly without "just cause" or "burden of proof."

EDIT: Damn pesky tags