This is pretty lame

[Jester983 0]

Read this.

Seems some people have issues. This makes me sick!

And the worst part of it is the guys will hardly get a slap on the wrist.

Any thoughts and opionions? BTW this happend saturday.

[Tovarish 0]

Yep, I have to say that doing this to a 9/11 memorial is extreemely tasteless. Especially if it wasn't politicized. Fact is there are always a few assholes on any side of an argument.

[ralphwiggum 6]

yup. assholes.

[Warin 0]

Those vandals are lucky I wasnt a cop.

September 11th Memorial = Freedom of Expression

Vanalising said memorial = Freedom of Expression

Taking my nightsick out and putting the beats on cretins who thing vandilising a 9/11 memorial is a good thing = Freedom of Expression

Right??

[Jester983 0]

What makes me even mader is the cops just stood there and did nothing.    

This is right by me too. Honestly, if i had seen this i would've at least attempted to fight them. Then the cops would've done something besides sit on their ass and watch.

[Guest]

First, let me say that I think it is very tasteless.

And now, let me (as usual) play the devil's advocate for a while:

As I understand they took some of the American flags that were at the memorial and burned them. The American flag is the symbol of the US government, i.e the Bush regime which these protesters don't think very highly of. So by removing and burning those flags from the memorial they were in no way disrespecting the dead. On the contrary, they removed the symbols of a bad regime from it in anger of that the death of these poor innocent people that were killed are exploited by the current regime. So they did not desacrate it. They did not dishonor the dead, on the contrary, they honored them! Imagine that it was during WW2 and that the memorial was in Germany. Would it be desacration to remove nazi flags and swastikas from the memorial?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Some people...

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 12 2003,02:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I understand they took some of the American flags that were at the memorial and burned them. The American flag is the symbol of the US government, i.e the Bush regime which these protesters don't think very highly of. So by removing and burning those flags from the memorial they were in no way disrespecting the dead. On the contrary, they removed the symbols of a bad regime from it in anger of that the death of these poor innocent people that were killed are exploited by the current regime. So they did not desacrate it. They did not dishonor the dead, on the contrary, they honored them! Imagine that it was during WW2 and that the memorial was in Germany. Would it be desacration to remove nazi flags and swastikas from the memorial?<span id='postcolor'>

I think you may just have opened a particularly nasty can of worms on the issue of symbolism. I myself would probably never burn a Cuban flag for instance, even though I strongly dislike the current government there. That's because I see a huge distinction between a country, and the party that's currently governing that country. I would definitely never burn the flag at a memorial for people who had died due to an attack by a foreign power.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 12 2003,02:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, let me say that I think it is very tasteless.

And now, let me (as usual) play the devil's advocate for a while:

As I understand they took some of the American flags that were at the memorial and burned them. The American flag is the symbol of the US government, i.e the Bush regime which these protesters don't think very highly of. So by removing and burning those flags from the memorial they were in no way disrespecting the dead. On the contrary, they removed the symbols of a bad regime from it in anger of that the death of these poor innocent people that were killed are exploited by the current regime. So they did not desacrate it. They did not dishonor the dead, on the contrary, they honored them! Imagine that it was during WW2 and that the memorial was in Germany. Would it be desacration to remove nazi flags and swastikas from the memorial?<span id='postcolor'>

I am going to disagree with you here.

The flag doesnt stand only as a symbol of the current regime. It is the whole of the nationalism and spirit of a nation (at least to a lot of folks). So burning it is disrespect for more than just the current government.

If you want to protest the bus regime, burn an effigy of your favourite BushDrone, but leave the flag alone. And especially dont desecrate a memorial.

[Jester983 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 11 2003,05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, let me say that I think it is very tasteless.

And now, let me (as usual) play the devil's advocate for a while:

As I understand they took some of the American flags that were at the memorial and burned them. The American flag is the symbol of the US government, i.e the Bush regime which these protesters don't think very highly of. So by removing and burning those flags from the memorial they were in no way disrespecting the dead. On the contrary, they removed the symbols of a bad regime from it in anger of that the death of these poor innocent people that were killed are exploited by the current regime. So they did not desacrate it. They did not dishonor the dead, on the contrary, they honored them! Imagine that it was during WW2 and that the memorial was in Germany. Would it be desacration to remove nazi flags and swastikas from the memorial?<span id='postcolor'>

It was a memorial to the victims of the 9/11 attack. One does not have to be a Bush supporter to remember those who died.

If you believe that Bush was responsible for the attacks of 9/11, that is another discussion for another day, preferably for those who also believe that Humpty Dumpty was pushed.

[Guest]

I agree with you, I am just discussing what motivated those people that burned those flags.

To continue that discussion: Do you think that after WW2 in Germany that they left the Nazi flags at memorials for those that died for the Wermacht, fighting other nations?

My point is that if you see a system as very evil and that system uses excessivly some symbols, then you will associate those symbols with the system, not the people.

[Guest]

Ok, it's obvious that people don't read my posts fully, so I'm going to highlight a couple of things that I said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>First, let me say that I think it is very tasteless.</span>

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And now,for let me (as usual) <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>play the devil's advocate</span> a while:

<span id='postcolor'>

Clear enough? Is size 5 for fonts enough? Do you need me to translate it in another language?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

You forget the fact that these flags were private property, and slashing them constitutes vandalism, on top of the utter asshole-ishness of ripping up flags at a 9/11 memorial. And Denoir, this example:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To continue that discussion: Do you think that after WW2 in Germany that they left the Nazi flags at memorials for those that died for the Wermacht, fighting other nations?

<span id='postcolor'>

Is way off base. A similar example that would actually be comparable is if after WWII, a WWI German memorial was defaced.

[JOEHADENUF~MOH~ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 12 2003,02:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, let me say that I think it is very tasteless.

And now, let me (as usual) play the devil's advocate for a while:

As I understand they took some of the American flags that were at the memorial and burned them. The American flag is the symbol of the US government, i.e the Bush regime which these protesters don't think very highly of. So by removing and burning those flags from the memorial they were in no way disrespecting the dead. On the contrary, they removed the symbols of a bad regime from it in anger of that the death of these poor innocent people that were killed are exploited by the current regime. So they did not desacrate it. They did not dishonor the dead, on the contrary, they honored them! Imagine that it was during WW2 and that the memorial was in Germany. Would it be desacration to remove nazi flags and swastikas from the memorial?<span id='postcolor'>

The American flag is not a symbol of the government you idiot. Unlike Europe, that brought us Nazism, Hitler, Stalin, and communisum, the American flag is a symbol of a free people, that saved Europes butt. The American flag is a symbol of thousands that fought and died for our freedom, my friend. The American flag is a symbol of freedom in the greatest country on earth. A freedom that wasn't free and didn't come cheap, a freedom that many gave their lives for .

It wasn't just flags they took down, they tore down posters, flowers, and prayers to those lost in the 911 attack on our great country. The people and neighbors of this area of East Whittier and La Habra California took their own time and put up flags, posters, flowers and notes to those lost, the good people of this area maintained this memorial since 911 . Before you post you should know the whole story. These cockroaches totally dishonored the dead by this act of cowardness, and I have nothing but contempt for those responsible.

I am happy to say, that as we speak, many of the neighbors in this area are now putting it all back together.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 12 2003,03:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To continue that discussion: Do you think that after WW2 in Germany that they left the Nazi flags at memorials for those that died for the Wermacht, fighting other nations?<span id='postcolor'>

True, and I have mixed feelings on that issue. I can understand why the swastika has become a symbol of evil. I'm just not sure it should have. The evil was Hitler, not some druid good luck charm he borrowed that has been around for thousands of years! I for one I'm irritated when i buy a game like Il-2 and Swastikas are not visible on the German planes unless you download some third party patches. It just seems Orwellian to me. And now before anyone goes and calls me a Nazi simpathyzer, let me point out that as far as we know, from my mother's side of the family, the only people that survived the Great Patriotic War were my grandfather and my grandmother, and both of them just barely.

[bn880 5]

YES, I see what Denoir is saying.... why are you guys so blockheaded, he's just giving you a possible way to understand what happened.

EDIT: I mean why are you guys being so blockheaded... or something

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (JOEHADENUF~MOH~ @ Mar. 12 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The American flag is not a symbol of the government you idiot.<span id='postcolor'>

Good bye posting rights for 48h for violation of the board rules §1.1.

You can spend that time re-reading my post to see if you just missed what I wrote or if you have some more form of serious problem. Regardless, flaming is not allowed.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 12 2003,03:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">YES, I see what Denoir is saying....  why are you guys so blockheaded, he's just giving you a possible way to understand what happened.<span id='postcolor'>

well, the thing is, we know why it happened, but it isn't anacceptable excuse. I'm only trying to point out what I feel is the flaw in that argument.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you need me to translate it in another language?<span id='postcolor'>

mĺtte mig översätta för dem?

förlĺt för fattig svensk översättning.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 12 2003,03:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, this example:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To continue that discussion: Do you think that after WW2 in Germany that they left the Nazi flags at memorials for those that died for the Wermacht, fighting other nations?

<span id='postcolor'>

Is way off base. A similar example that would actually be comparable is if after WWII, a WWI German memorial was defaced.<span id='postcolor'>

Why? As I see the only difference is that we all agree on that Hitler's Germany was bad. The soldiers that died for it did however for the most part not.

Another hypothetical case:

Say just for argument's sake that a neo-nazi Government came to power in USA and that they replaced the current flag with a big swastika. Would it be vandalization to remove such flags from a memorial or not?

My point is that the difference is only in the perception of the current government. If you think that a government is evil then destroying and removing its flag is not so strange.

And while I very much disagree with their actions, I believe that was exactly the case here. They burned the flags because they are the symbol of a system that goes against something that they believe. I don't think it was in any way directed at those that perished on 11/9.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">mĺtte mig översätta för dem?

förlĺt för fattig svensk översättning.

<span id='postcolor'>

Hehe. What you are saying is:

"may me translate for them"

"sorry for poor (as in no money, poor) Swedish translation"

[Harnu 0]

Must have been a bad online dictionary   I tried "I" and it came up with no results. So may me was the best alternative.

Anyway, I see what you mean about how the flag could be related as the governemnt.  And burining the flag is like rotesting the regime.  I see what you mean, and I like all of us still disagree with it.

P.S.  Anyone got that pictue of the arab dude burning a US flag and then catching himself on fire?  

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Mar. 12 2003,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Must have been a bad online dictionary    I tried "I" and it came up with no results.  So may me was the best alternative.  

Anyway, I see what you mean about how the flag could be related as the governemnt.  And burining the flag is like rotesting the regime.  I see what you mean, and I like all of us still disagree with it.

P.S.  Anyone got that pictue of the arab dude burning a US flag and then catching himself on fire?  <span id='postcolor'>

Language and translating can be very entertaining!

My mother once asked for "canare pressÄ" or something like that when dining at Tour D'argent in Paris. The waiter appeared to be pussled - and rightly so - because what she asked for was "stressed duck" instead of "pressed duck" which is a famous speciality of that restaurant.  

Edit: One more post!

[Akira 0]

For the sake of argument I will bow to denoir's flag arguement. But if it was a regime that they wanted to protest why rip up flowers and memorial tiles?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"They trashed 87 flags, ripped 11 memorial tiles made by myself and my children out of the ground and glued the Bob Dylan song to a sign that said, 'America, land of the brave, home of the free,' ' she said.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Antiwar protesters burned and ripped up flags, flowers and patriotic signs at a Sept. 11 memorial that residents erected on a fence along Whittier Boulevard days after the terrorist attacks in 2001 and have maintained ever since. <span id='postcolor'>

These alleged "antiwar protesters" were probably nothing but punks hiding behind a "cause." It's like the peace protest that turned violent here in Texas. Where and how exactly does a PEACE protest turn VIOLENT?? Obviously some don't practice what they claim to preach. Where exactly does protest turn into or condone vandalism, looting, violence or any other diametrically opposed action?

They are ignorant, sub-human, animals and nothing more...and therefore hardly worth the energy I used typing this.

[Aaron Kane 0]

The way I see it, theres a huge difference between Joe burning a flag in his field with a bunch of his friends, and Joe the Meanie tearing up the PARTICULAR flags in question.

I dont want to go into this topic too deeply, as I'll no doubt hurt peoples feelings or just get my sorry ass banned. So I'll try to explain my feelings on the matter...

The American flag isnt just a flag of our nation. Like any other nation, it has a value to that countries citizens. I'm not sure if the American flag inspires America's citizens any more than any other countries flag would inspire its citizens, but...

Denoir, in my opinion, there is a huge difference between burning a nonexistant neo-nazi flag, and burning the American flag. And remember, it was not only the flag that was trashed, an entire memorial was destroyed. THAT is blatant disrespect to the dead.

I could personally care less about a burning American flag UNDER REASONABLE CIRCUMSTANCES, but there are times to utilize freedom of speech, and there are times when you should not.

[Mister Frag 0]

Freedom of Expression does not excuse the destruction of private property. The police was simply wrong in not making an arrest.