Benjamin Franklin

[Warin 0]

Benjamin Franklin said:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

Take a look at this. Version 2 of the Patriot Act looks to be even more oppresive and remove even more civil liberties from US Citizens.

My question is this:

Is this the start of a disturbing trend where we move towards a far less free society? And does anyone else find it amusing that an act to take away freedoms is called 'The Patriot Act', so that when you question it, you sound like you are NOT being a patriot?

Please note: This is not intended to start a thread to bash the US. I've heard that there are similar bills being bandied about in the UK, and even some similar provisions floating around the Canadian legislature.

[ran 0]

reminds me of the terror period right after the french revolution , the state proclaimed the "Fatherland in danger" , after this proclamation , the state cancelled a few of the civil rights earnt in 1789 and 1792 under the excuse that the sovereignity of the french republic was threatened by people inside its own structure and on the french soil , it was in fact the pretext used to start a political cleaning and internal quarrels wich ended up in bloodbaths , during that dark periods , hundreds if not thousand of french citizens have been guillotined

-edit-

got the correct numbers : 17000 death judgements , but 40000 victims

[Badgerboy 0]

France and the UK (As did most of Europe) experienced terrorist attacks through most of the Cold War, but we had no need for liberty crushing safeguards to protect us.

Do you think this bill will pass? What sort of reaction has the US public had to this? I suppose Americans are viewed as the poeple who cherish their freedom the most, but is it worth giving some of that up for the illusion of protection?

[FSPilot 0]

Benjamin Franklin has been spinning in his crave since we took God out of our country. His rate of rotation increased with legalized abortion. And we estimate his geo-stationary orbit to be about 100 miles since Clinton lied about blow jobs in office.

[Badgerboy 0]

Argggh! I used to enjoy frugalsworld forums until everyone started ramming religious rhetoric down people's throats.

I respect your beliefs, but how the hell does taking 'god' out of a country ( How do you manage that anyway?! ), the precursor to social decline?

[Warin 0]

This discussion isnt about god. Kindly leave God out of this discussion.

Thank you.

[USMC Sniper 0]

Aw I thought this thread was about BF's body spinning inside his grave! Try to make titles actually represent the thread!

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 08 2003,23:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Benjamin Franklin has been spinning in his crave since we took God out of our country.  His rate of rotation increased with legalized abortion.  And we estimate his geo-stationary orbit to be about 100 miles since Clinton lied about blow jobs in office. <span id='postcolor'>

This is reason i hate right wingers. Anyways....I must be missing something i don't see anything that state anything that would change an american Citizens.How bout you cut it and just paste the points about it. I'll read it a bit more........

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Feb. 08 2003,22:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">France and the UK (As did most of Europe) experienced terrorist attacks through most of the Cold War, but we had no need for liberty crushing safeguards to protect us.

Do you think this bill will pass? What sort of reaction has the US public had to this? I suppose Americans are viewed as the poeple who cherish their freedom the most, but is it worth giving some of that up for the illusion of protection?<span id='postcolor'>

The coldwar stuff was different,Those people didn't want to posion water,blow up nukes,and other crap.But what's really scary about these morons is they want huge kill counts,more then thousands.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I totally agree man, the Patriot Act scares the bejeesus out of me. Not just for it's tangible abuses, but for its shameless use of a word like Patriot. I may just be writing my Congressman about this one...

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Feb. 09 2003,01:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I totally agree man, the Patriot Act scares the bejeesus out of me. Not just for it's tangible abuses, but for its shameless use of a word like Patriot. I may just be writing my Congressman about this one...<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think homeland defense sound like?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Feb. 09 2003,01:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Feb. 09 2003,01:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I totally agree man, the Patriot Act scares the bejeesus out of me. Not just for it's tangible abuses, but for its shameless use of a word like Patriot. I may just be writing my Congressman about this one...<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think homeland defense sound like?<span id='postcolor'>

Look, what's the point of defending freedom by destroying it? Why would I want to live in a police state just because my fellow citzens are spineless ignorant cowards with the mentality of a swarm of lemmings? You see, if we allow someone like a terrorist to affect our fundamental pattern of behavior, then they win. Simple as that. If, by their actions, we become something we hate, then they've won, no matter how many of them we deport, interrogate, or kill. American 'Homeland Security' reminds me of a quote from a great man (President Eisenhower): </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll pick freedom, thank you.

[foxer 0]

I agree with you. I gotta edit that post,err nm.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Feb. 09 2003,09:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Feb. 09 2003,01:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Feb. 09 2003,01:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I totally agree man, the Patriot Act scares the bejeesus out of me. Not just for it's tangible abuses, but for its shameless use of a word like Patriot. I may just be writing my Congressman about this one...<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think homeland defense sound like?<span id='postcolor'>

Look, what's the point of defending freedom by destroying it? Why would I want to live in a police state just because my fellow citzens are spineless ignorant cowards with the mentality of a swarm of lemmings? You see, if we allow someone like a terrorist to affect our fundamental pattern of behavior, then they win. Simple as that. If, by their actions, we become something we hate, then they've won, no matter how many of them we deport, interrogate, or kill. American 'Homeland Security' reminds me of a quote from a great man (President Eisenhower): </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll pick freedom, thank you.<span id='postcolor'>

Very well said.

I'm sick of the typical (usually right-wing) emotive, reactionary mentality possessed by some of those in places of authority. By limiting our own freedoms, we are taking steps towards becoming the sort of society that the terrorists advocate - I know, there is still quite a big difference, but we must try and make sure our's doesn't progress towards some paranoid, security-focused police state.

People that advocate banning the Muslim women's burka (veil), as one moronic Christian politician here in Aust. did, because it just might be used to conceal automatic weapons/explosives fails to realise that this sort of legislation is completely at odds with our idea of freedom and liberty.

I'm sure most people would rather run the risk (still a very low one) of being killed in a terrorist attack to preserve fundamental freedoms. As Tex said, if the terrorists cause a significant change in our collective way of thinking (towards fear and suspicion) they have, in effect, won. Causing terror is the launching pad terrorists use for trying to achieve their primary goals.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

But then again, maybe we here in Aust. aren't concerned enough about terrorists to become a police state - our idea of Homeland Security seems to be a bunch of ads on TV with some guy in khaki trousers and a fridge magnet from the government with spaces for emergency numbers. You can keep all your fancy GPS guided bombs and microwave weapons, for I know what number to call to reach my local gas provider!

[peanuckle_00 0]

I am not flaming or trying to start something with any of you but I want you all to just relax and chill out and think about what it is your suggesting or thinking about here. Out of the freedoms promised in the Constitution name one freedom that you're going to have taken away as a result of this bill. I'm not speaking in favor or disfavor of the bill, im speaking out against people accusing our government of trying to take away our freedoms.

Edit: I bet you can't. As a matter of fact I know you can't because our government isn't taking away any freedoms and isn't going to in any bill. Don't let anyone pursuade you that our government is going to take away anyones freedom because its anti-american propoganda. A thought for you Anti-America American hypocrites out there, you know who you are: Let's say that one day the White House gets hit, the Pentagon gets hit, Congress gets hit too. Let's say that all the major infrastructures where daily government business takes place gets hit and you same Americans who talk all this trash about YOUR OWN COUNTRY, saying your freedoms are being taken away WHO CLEARLY DON'T HAVE ME PERSUADED BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PRESENT ANY CLEAR EVIDENCE OF IT IN DETAIL, will be hoping from the pits of your Ronald McDonald eating heart that this nation gets rebuilt because your way of life will be changed into a third world country without our government unless you move to Britian or some other established country. Remember what country the people are from who's posting in these threads starting stuff up about America being unfair to its own people because they're not Americans and don't like us. Thats it.

[Mister 5 0]

I tend to agree with some of the posters in this thread. Although I don't find the administration's foreign policy to be incredibly distasteful (although I think he has been ignoring the doctrine of speak softly and...), I continue to vehemently oppose it on most of its domestic agenda.

[Cloney 0]

Thomas Jefferson once said

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best kind of government is one that rules the least<span id='postcolor'>

I tend to agree, leave the power with the states. This "Patriot Act" is a truly scary thing. Is anyone seeing links with McCarthyism here? Does Bush just need to point his finger and call someone bad and the storm troopers kick in their door and gun them down in cold blood?

I'm sorry, but I tend to agree that this is infringing on our freedoms. I wonder how much further they are going to take it in the future. I guess if you oppose this act you aren't a "Patriot".

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Feb. 09 2003,06:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is reason i hate right wingers. <span id='postcolor'>

Because we disagree with you? You do understand that the power to disagree is one of the freedoms of an American citizen.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 09 2003,05:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Feb. 09 2003,06:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is reason i hate right wingers. <span id='postcolor'>

Because we disagree with you?  You do understand that the power to disagree is one of the freedoms of an American citizen.<span id='postcolor'>

I would imagine freedom to dislike people due to their views is one of those freedoms too.

[FSPilot 0]

Yes but he doesn't dislike us does he, he hates us. And hate leads to concentration camps and ethnic cleansing.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 09 2003,06:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes but he doesn't dislike us does he, he hates us.  And hate leads to concentration camps and ethnic cleansing.<span id='postcolor'>

No believe the sucession is: "Anger leads to hate, hate leads to evil, evil leads to the dark side."

[Major Fubar 0]

Do you hate child molesters? Most people do. I haven't seen any concentration camps set up for them lately...

It's OK to dislike, or even hate people. It's human nature. So long as you don't act on it, no problem.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

It isn't just the right wingers, people. You will find that both extremes of the political spectrum will yield a government that seeks to control all aspects of your life; they'll just take different approaches to arrive at the same endpoint. As you can see if you listen to any real socialist, they have a fundamental distrust of an individual's ability to handle his or herself. So, they advocate a powerful government that will take care of those who are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions. If you need more proof, just look at all the Democrats who have voted for PA I, and will most likely vote for PA II.

@ peanuckle: fear is a narcotic that the government uses to control people, people just like you. They try to persuade you that you aren't safe as is, and you need to give the government more power to keep you safe. Sure, it's little stuff at first, no big deal, right? As long as it keeps us safe, you say. Now then, what happens when they start taking away larger and larger portions of YOUR freedom, and you can't stop them, because now there is a legislative and judicial precedent allowing them to do so. In general, the 'slippery slope' concept is logically flawed, but in this case it fits perfectly.

A second thing. I could have sworn that you just questioned my loyalty to America, just because I don't agree with a policy being pushed by the government (who would, I guarantee you, be the largest benefactors of said bill). Don't ever fuckin' do that again. Dissent is not only core to the American ideals of democracy and liberty, but it is what got our country started in the first fucking place. I'm not, as you say, 'talking trash about America'. It is because I love our country so much that I'm going to disagree with what I think is a big mistake. As for clear, detailed evidence, what have you given us? A nightmare scenario that is clearly simple scare-tactic propaganda, and not at all worth the time of any person with the ability to think for themselves. Now, what were you saying about anti-American propaganda? It's anti-American to defend people's freedom now? I guess I'm just very out of the loop.

[Mister 5 0]

I couldn't agree more.