M-16 - single-shot or three-round-burst, usually?

[David Shipley 0]

I have yet another OFP-realism question, gentlemen!

The M-16 rifle. It can shoot in single shots, mainly for long-range engagements, and three-round-bursts for close-up exchanges.

Is that how it is? Is that how's it done in real-life, with real soldiers and marines?

I've seen "Blackhawk Down," but I always thought it was unrealistic for the soldiers there to use single shots in a close-up urban environment. Were they just running out of ammo or something?

I've also seen "We Were Soldiers," and they always full automatic fire. (I have my doubts about that movie for OTHER reasons, though.)

So, how do you guys do it? Single or three?

How does the US Army do it?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Unless ordered to, it's usually up to the soldier wether he want's to use single or auto mode on his rifle when things get close up. 3 round burst or auto is rarley used over 100m, with any accuracy.

In Vietnam, the full-auto feature was good to have because you rarely saw the enemy, you just shot in the general direction in which you thought they were. Jungle and bush fighting tends to be close-in anyway.

Tyler

[ralphwiggum 6]

the movie 'we were soldiers' is not wrong about full auto M16, if i remember correctly. M16A1 first came with sigle and full auto mode, which was changed to single and burst in M16A2.

i think you can distinguish both by triangular handle on M16A1.(not sure though)

[Assault (CAN) 1]

[*]M-16

[*]M-16A1

[*]M-16A2

Both the M-16 and the M-16A1 were used in Vietnam. They both have single and full-auto options. The M-16A1 has the triangular forearm of the original, the easiest way to distinguish between the two is: The A1 has an enclosed flash suppressor, as opposed to the 3-prong one of the M-16. The A1 also has a forward assist, whereas the original did not.

The A2 is single and 3-round burst only. The easiest way to distinguish this from the rest is the circular forearm.

Tyler

[chaztheducky 0]

yes ralph but the m16a1 also didnt have a foward bolt assist. which is the circle nob on the right side of the gun. the full auto feture was on the m16a1 and they shot with it alot becuse they couldnt see the enemy most of the time. so the would pop up out of a foxhole(if there was one) and waste an untire clip and jump back in the hole. this tactic was called spray and pray . i think it was cool but the politicitans didnt think so (they hated it,to much ammo wasted). the m16a1 also had a tri-prong flash suppressor that made the muzzle flash shoot out in only 3 directions. all of this means that it took about 500 rounds to kill 1 enemy .

smiles for ralph

[FSPilot 0]

It probably depends on the situation. If you want accuracy go for single shot, if you're close in to the enemy use 3 round burst.

[cybrid 0]

In OFP I always use single shot mode, I find myself just wasting ammo when in burst mode, You don't need 3 bullets to kill a man.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the m16a1 also didnt have a foward bolt assist<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it did, read my post above. Alot of people easily confuse the M-16 and M-16a1.

Go hereand read about M-16(E1), A1, A2, and A3 variations.

Edit: finding good pictures is IMPOSSIBLE on the net, man I hate the internet.    

Tyler

[Renagade 0]

Its a bit funny how u can almost shoot as fast on single shot as u can with 3rd burst in OFP now and just plain stupid in other games where it doesn`t do anything apart from making the switch from single to full auto just that little bit longer

[Mister Frag 0]

I think I'm actually faster with single-shoot than in burst mode. Plus, the rifle recoils less in single-shoot mode, so you are more accurate to boot.

There are really very few situations in OFP where I use burst. Only in CQB-type situations do I use it, and then only to reduce the mental load a little bit. We all know that a single shot from a M16 rarely puts an enemy down, so being able to put three rounds into your enemy with a single "trigger pull" is quite useful.

[David Shipley 0]

Yeah, I know there's different types of M-16s. I pointed out the heavy use of full-auto in "We Were Soldiers" since it was the closest thing to three-round-burst.

Don't change the subject of the thread now. ;-)

So, is "Blackhawk Down" right or not when they have every M-16-wielding soldier using single-shot mode?

Or does the US Army usually reserve that for long-to-medium range engagements, while still leaving close-in engagements to three-round-burst?

How is it done? Was anyone here in the US Army?

It seems like, for close-up engagements, three-round-burst would be better -- so what's should be done in OFP, correct?

[shadow 6]

I heard somewhere that one of the reasons for removing full-auto on the M16A2 (and adding 3-burst instead) was that soldiers tend to run out of ammo too fast in Vietnam.

Single-shot in BHD makes sense to me. I don't think you'll hit more targets over 100 meters with 3-burst anyway, but you'll definetly spend more ammo in a short amount of time.

Weapon-characteristics-wise I think OFP is quite close to reality. So looking at how you play the game should answer most questions regarding semi- and auto-fire in BHD or any other "realistic" movie or even a real war, I guess...

[madmedic 0]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (David Shipley @ Jan. 02 2003,087)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, is "Blackhawk Down" right or not when they have every M-16-wielding soldier using single-shot mode?<span id='postcolor'>

That is trigger discipline...I was actually impressed by the fact that Blackhawk Down portrayed the soldiers using proper trigger discipline, and not just spraying lead all over the place.

A properly trained soldier will use automatic fire conservatively...and engaging multiple moving targets with accurate follow-up shots is easier to do in semiautomatic.

One of the reasons for the switch to 3rnd burst on the M16 was in fact excessive ammo use by troops in Viet Nam.

When the M16 was hastily rushed into service (prematurely)...

most of the troops were not adequately trained on it.

The M14 (which is almost impossible to use effectively on full auto due to the recoil), was replaced by the M16 (which has very mild recoil)...tempting the troops to spray out tons of ammo.

BTW...Standard troops are issued the M16 in semi/3rnd burst configuration...However, the only thing that makes it 3rnd burst is the fire control parts, (which are interchangeable with ANY M16)

You can swap out the cam, and trigger parts to make ANY M16 fire that way...and you can re-configure an M16A2 to fire: semi/full auto,.. semi/3rnd burst/full auto,.. semi/5rnd burst/full auto,.. and there are even fire control parts out there that offer semi/3rnd burst/5rnd burst/full auto

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, is "Blackhawk Down" right or not when they have every M-16-wielding soldier using single-shot mode?

<span id='postcolor'>

Read my first post.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I heard somewhere that one of the reasons for removing full-auto on the M16A2 (and adding 3-burst instead) was that soldiers tend to run out of ammo too fast in Vietnam.

<span id='postcolor'>

Typical example of U.S. leaders wanting to control their troops instead of training them. I think that the U.S. Army is the only one that uses regulated bursts, every other country uses full-auto. Note that special forces in the U.S. used full-auto weapons and regular troops used 3 round burst.

Tyler

[Jinef 2]

i always fire single shot, (mainly because i mainly use a pistol) but i do when i have an sa80.

[David Shipley 0]

OK, that's cool. I'll use single-shot almost exclusively now - except for ambushes and in-door fighting, where I'll use three-round-burst.

Strange, the soldiers in OFP always use three-round-burst. Even for long-range engagements. That's either an OFP mistake, or these are just regular soldiers who aren't trained as well as Rangers?

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (David Shipley @ Jan. 02 2003,22:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK, that's cool. I'll use single-shot almost exclusively now - except for ambushes and in-door fighting, where I'll use three-round-burst.

Strange, the soldiers in OFP always use three-round-burst. Even for long-range engagements. That's either an OFP mistake, or these are just regular soldiers who aren't trained as well as Rangers?<span id='postcolor'>

The higher the AI-skill the more it uses burst/full auto.

[plons 0]

they changed from full automatic to 3 round burst because soldiers in vietnam were complaining that the m16 was always jamming on ful automatic, to sensitive for dirt.

[Mister Frag 0]

Most of the reliability problems with the M-16 rifle in Vietnam can be attributed directly to the unauthorized switch from extruded powder to ball powder in the ammunition for the rifle.

The rifle was never designed for nor tested with the ammunition that the Army switched to, and the consequences were disastrous for the troops in the field. The M16 thus undeservedly acquired a reputation for being prone to failure; however, the problems were just as easily corrected by switching back to extruded powder for the propellant.

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (plons @ Jan. 03 2003,00:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they changed from full automatic to 3 round burst because soldiers in vietnam were complaining that the m16 was always jamming on ful automatic, to sensitive for dirt.<span id='postcolor'>

No,...it had much more to do with trigger control

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Jan. 03 2003,01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most of the reliability problems with the M-16 rifle in Vietnam can be attributed directly to the unauthorized switch from extruded powder to ball powder in the ammunition for the rifle.

The rifle was never designed for nor tested with the ammunition that the Army switched to, and the consequences were disastrous for the troops in the field. The M16 thus undeservedly acquired a reputation for being prone to failure; however, the problems were just as easily corrected by switching back to extruded powder for the propellant.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes...The switch to BALL powder, combined with the initial lack of a chrome lined bore, and chamber were a major scource of the reliability problems.

As was the fact that soldiers did not recieve proper training on the rifle, and the rifles were issued without cleaning kits.

(Some Vets have even said they were initially told the M16 was "self cleaning" ...and did not require much user maintinence)

BTWThe military did not switch back from BALL powder,...they upgraded the M16 to function with it.

current mil-spec ammo uses BALL powder, I have TONS of it laying around.

Its great stuff, a little bit hotter load than stick powder

[Balschoiw 0]

I remember a malayan soldier I swapped weapon with for fun. We were at the "John Wayne memorial range" near Belet Huen and I tested the M 16. What a fun. The recoil was a laughter compared to my G3. I shot at some dry trees and the bullet didnt make it through it. Then I stood back and watched the malayan shooting my G3. Hell he got totally out of control with it. As it doesnt have the 3 round limitation he spreaded the bullets very WIDE and was totally shocked of the recoil

Anyway even if set on full auto a good soldier with a g3 will fire 3 rounds only and get them into the target. It´s only about training. I really prefered the 7.62 cal these days as I was able to shoot through trees and hitting the target behind it. That didnt work with the m16.

And yes even with 20 bullets on auto with one standard mag it was usefull when it came to covering fire (more or less directed). It´s a bit psychology that makes the opposite side think you have a light mg with you.

[USMC Sniper 0]

I find it pretty funny when people think of the stereotypical "single shot is accurate yet fullauto is uncontrollable" often found in games for balance purposes.

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 03 2003,01:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember a malayan soldier I swapped weapon with for fun. We were at the "John Wayne memorial range" near Belet Huen and I tested the M 16. What a fun. The recoil was a laughter compared to my G3. I shot at some dry trees and the bullet didnt make it through it. Then I stood back and watched the malayan shooting my G3. Hell he got totally out of control with it. As it doesnt have the 3 round limitation he spreaded the bullets very WIDE and was totally shocked of the recoil  

Anyway even if set on full auto a good soldier with a g3 will fire 3 rounds only and get them into the target. It´s only about training. I really prefered the 7.62 cal these days as I was able to shoot through trees and hitting the target behind it. That didnt work with the m16.

And yes even with 20 bullets on auto with one standard mag it was usefull when it came to covering fire (more or less directed). It´s a bit psychology that makes the opposite side think you have a light mg with you.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, when I go to the range I usually have at least one of my AR 15s, or M16 with me,...and my FAL.

There is quite a recoil difference in the 7.62 FAL, and the 5.56 rifles.

(edited to add:...Im not too familiar with "Malayans"..lol...are they very well trained?

Sounds like he was using the "spray -n- pray" technique.)

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">are they very well trained?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes they are well trained and have good infantry equipment apart from their APC´s with cable guns. You cant swap them , cause they are so small caucasians would not fit in

They are rather small in height and weight and I guess this was also a factor for him to have a hard time with thew G3.

Also if you never shot a G3 and are used to shoot 5.56 ammo it will offer you some real big surprise.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sounds like he was using the "spray -n- pray" technique<span id='postcolor'>

Yes he sprayed and we prayed