What's the 'standard' infantry load?

[David Shipley 0]

Tell me: when on a regular combat mission with a squad of men, what's the USUAL assortment of weapons for those guys?

I'm playing this mission, and it has five out of twelve guys with M-60s. I doubt that's very realistic. But I'd like to know what would be a 'better' and more realistic load.

Yes, I know there's a different load of equipment depending on the mission the guys are doing, but on a 'standard' mission, what would those guys be carrying?

MY COMPLETELY INEXPERIENCED GUESS

(e.g. From the official OFP missions)

- Four-to-Eight riflemen

- One Grenadier

- Two LAW men

- One Machinegunner

Is there usually only one Machinegunner in a squad?

Is there usually one Grenadier?

Is two LAW men the standard for a squad? Or one?

Is it common for one soldier to carry rifle mortars? (Not in the OFP missions, it seems. They never carry it.)

[-TU--33ker 0]

i don't know much about the structure of realistic US squads, but i'm pretty sure there are more than 1 greandier in a squad.

if you're talking about squads in OFP you only need to put a whole squad on the map (F2 "Groups") in the editor and count the units. usually you can add 3 units to the squad because a standart OFP-squad has only 9 members. or you can set up your own combination. that's the freedom of OFP!

[shadow 6]

If you are talking standard load-out for a team in real-life, then that depends on what country, regime and military type they are in.

A regular infantry-squad (a squad is divided in 4 teams of 12) in the Norwegian airforce (I was in the airforce) usually has:

~50 men

They all carry a G3 with 5 mags.

2-5 handgrenades

2-3 lawlauncher pr. soldier

2-3 MG3s divided on 4-6 soldiers (a shooter and a ammo-carrier)

That's pretty much it.

[mr. Duck 0]

You guys have a pretty large squad, that's bigger than platoons here (I've heard).

But about the U.S. If you believe that Americas Army is realistic in the organisation (and if you believe fas) of it's squad then you can say that a squad has 12 members (assuming it's a rifle squad).

Each squad has 3 SAW gunners, 3 grenadiers and the rest of them are riflemen.

[Guest]

Moving to OT

Shadow, are you sure that you don't mean platoon? If I remember correctly the structure in Norway is:

Gjeng/Lag (Squad) ~ 10 men

Tropp (Platoon) ~ 40 men

Kompani (Company) ~ 120 men

Bataljon (Batallion) ~ 800 men

[nyles 11]

Soviet and US forces from the mid-eighties had a very similar organisation. A typical infantry squad (of course there are many variants, still) consists of 9 men:

-The US squad has a squad leader (m16) and two fire teams. Each fire team has one team leader (m16), one grenadier (m16+m203), one saw-gunner (m249) and one rifleman (m16). The two riflemen mostly carried unalocated weaponry. So mostly there was one law launcher (later at4) and a radio in the squad which they carried. Sometimes the fire team leader was the greandier tho. This depends. I don't think that there were strict rules about this. Machineguns were not issued to squads normally. Most of the time all machineguns of a platoon/company were used concentrated in a seperate weapons squad, just like with AT weapons. Back in the mid eighties, the US Army had the Dragon as AT weapon. The CarlGustav is not being used by them. It is a ranger-only weapon which was fielded first in the 90's.

-Soviet Squads, as said before, are very similar to the US ones. However, I'm not sure about the role of fire teams. Still, they had 9 men per squad: One squad leader (ak74), , two soldiers with underbarrel grenadelauncher (ak74/gp25), two automatic riflemen (rpk74) and three riflemen (ak74) from which either two were team leaders or just normal riflemen, depending on the fire team role in the soviet army, and lastly, a grenadier (rpg-7v). There were two unallocated rpg18/22 (similar to law) launchers and a radio in the squad. Just like with US troops, machineguns (PK) and more AT weapons (rpg7) were concentrated in an addtional weapon squad.

Even though, machinegun teams could still be attached to normal squads from the weapon squad, this was rarely the case for both Soviet and US troops.

Did I leave something out?

[Ruskiesrule 0]

Wouldn't the squad change slightly depending on the battle/enemy!

If your going against some kind of terrorist enemy in a screwed up battered city you wouldn't have any AT men would you (My guess is you'd have more grenadiers), and if your enemy has a big airforce/army aircorps wouldn't you have more/addictional AA men!

[nyles 11]

No.

You have to understand that what I explained was a standard infantry squad from a standard infantry platoon/company/battallion/etc..

Anti-Air support will not be performed by such troops for example. For such a situation, the command will attach AA units from different areas. These AA units however could still be assigned to an infantry company. So for example The regiment could assign several Stinger AA teams or an Avenger AA Platoon to support an Infantry battallion.

I know that it might be a little confusing to understand all of these procedures and tables of organisation without actual military experience, but you have to understand that every solider has a distinctive role he performs and in which he is trained and hopefully skilled. In times of combat, elements like infantry, mechanized infantry, anti-air units and others like army aviation and armour are combined in joint forces. It is not the case (or at least very very uncommon) that at one time, a rifleman may carry an Dragon AT weapon and at another time the same rifleman carries a Stinger AA weapon. They are both launchers, yes, but are used in completly different branches. It is different with this, than with small arms like a M249, M16 or M16+203. These weapons are far more common to be switched within a squad or platoon. However even there, it is still the standard to train a soldier to perform best with one particular weapon, even though he has been introduced to use all the weapons in his branch. Of course this is said in a very simpl way to make non-military people understand the matter to an extend. The truth is far more complex.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you are talking standard load-out for a team in real-life, then that depends on what country, regime and military type they are in.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.

Here's how we do things in Canada:

1. We call 'squads' 'sections' instead, that's pretty much universal throughout the commonwealth.

2. There are 8 men per section, the standard set-up being:

[*]1 sect. commander

[*]1 sect. 2ic(ic=In Command)

[*]2 C9 Light Machine Gunners (FN Minimi) gunners

[*]2 Grenadiers (M-203/C7A1)

[*]2 riflemen (C7A1)

3.The section is devided into 4 'fire teams' Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta.

Alpha: will have the section commander and a grenadier

Bravo: grenadier, light machinegunner

Charlie: two riflemen

Delta: 2ic, light machinegunner

When travelling in the open in an arrowhead or line formation, Alpha will be in the middle, charlie to the right, bravo further to the right, and delta on the left of alhpa:

               A

D                       C

                                        B

This formation keeps the MG's on the flanks for security.

However, any individual section commander can modify his secion how he wants. This happens to be the standard taught in battle school.

4. Any platoon support weapons like the 84mm Carl Gustav, C6 (FN MAG), 60mm Mortar, or the Eryx (reg force only) are kept in a 'heavy weapons' section. So in a Platoon there will be 3 sections, like the one shown above, and 1 heavy weapons section.

If anyone wants to know the standard load-out of any soldier, just ask.  

HTH

Tyler

[Sphinx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 31 2002,11:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you are talking standard load-out for a team in real-life, then that depends on what country, regime and military type they are in.

A regular infantry-squad (a squad is divided in 4 teams of 12) in the Norwegian airforce (I was in the airforce) usually has:

~50 men

They all carry a G3 with 5 mags.

2-5 handgrenades

2-3 lawlauncher pr. soldier

2-3 MG3s divided on 4-6 soldiers (a shooter and a ammo-carrier)

That's pretty much it.<span id='postcolor'>

So the four teams of 12.. that would be Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta?

[Sphinx 0]

Hmmm. thats very interesting.. But how would they do this.. If we were talking about NATO, and the Russian Army ? So this will help us out in OFP ?

[jakerod 254]

According to this army field manual from 1980 there are

US Rifle Squad

-2 Grenadiers

-2 Automatic Rifle Men (M60)

-1 Dragon (Use LAW in ofp)

-4 Rifle Men

-2 Fire Team Leaders (Rifle Men)

-1 Squad Leader (Riffle man)

Soviet Rifle Squad

-1 Squad Leader (rifle man)

-1 Deputy Squad Leader (light machine gun (PK))

-RPG Soldier

-2 Grenadiers

-4 Rifle

Soviet Mech Inf Squad

-1 Squad Leader (AKMS- AK74 with foldingr stock)

-2 Machine Gunners

-1 RPG

-Driver Pistol

- Vehicle Gunner (AKMS)

-4 Rifle men (AKMS)

-BMP or BTR-60

Each Rifle Platoon- 3 Rifle Squads, machine gun squad (1 Machine Gunner, 1 Ammo Barer, 1 Assitant Gunner) and an HQ containing Platoon Leader, and one sniper.

[nyles 11]

Well, this is really outdated, though. Looks like something between the vietnam war and the modern organisation. there isn't even the AK74 listed for the soviets.

Here some images from current US Army Field Manuals regarding OpFor (based on soviet army of mid-eighties):

-Infantry Company

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/img125.gif

-Infantry Platoon

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/img126.gif

-Infantry Squad

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/img127.gif

-Weapons Squad

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/img128.gif

-Mortar Platoon

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/img129.gif

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jakerod @ Jan. 01 2003,03:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-1 Dragon (Use LAW in ofp)<span id='postcolor'>

In OFP terms, I would say the Carl Gustav is closer to the M47 Dragon.

Incidentally - why the hell hasn't any modder made an M47 Dragon?

[nyles 11]

that's a good question. There are so many army standard weapons of both US and Soviets which are not available as addons. I would really like to see some proper russian RPO or a US Dragon.

One problem with the dragon might be the way it's shot. A smart usage of the sit animation would have to be implemented so that the weapon will be believable. I also agree that the CarlGustav seems way closer to it than a LAW. I would even say that the current guidance, damage, etc.. values of the CG are perfectly right simulate a dragon. Afterall, the real-deal CG is not guideable, the Dragon is, though. I never understood why BIS put the CG in the game. Somehow it seems they confused it with the Dragon the same way they seem to have confused the AT-4 with the RPO. Bad research? *shrug*

[Cloney 0]

Atleast it can Kill a T-72 in one shot :/

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 31 2002,15:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Moving to OT

Shadow, are you sure that you don't mean platoon? If I remember correctly the structure in Norway is:

Gjeng/Lag (Squad) ~ 10 men

Tropp (Platoon) ~ 40 men

Kompani (Company) ~ 120 men

Bataljon (Batallion) ~ 800 men<span id='postcolor'>

ooh

I mixed the names up. Yeah, you're allmost correct

team: 12

platoon: ~50 (4 teams +leaders)

company: ~200 (4 platoons)

Batallion is not used in the airforce over here. I think only the army uses that.

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sphinx @ Dec. 31 2002,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the four teams of 12.. that would be Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta?<span id='postcolor'>

We divide companys into a , b , c , d

Alpha-company etc

I was in Delta-2 (team 4) #3.

That would be the 4th company, second squad in that company, on the 4th team (of 4) and number 3 in line and rank on that team and had responsibility for watching right flank when we were marching (I believe the reason I got right flank was that I'm a links-shooter)

Thank god I was not number 2 LOL (carrying that heavy radio).

[Jan Masterson 0]

This a generic Belgian Mech Infantry Section (the lowest oragnization just up the binome (2 man) ):

LA SECTION D’INFANTERIE BLINDÉE

ORGANISATION

EQUIPES COMPOSITION (Grades) ARMEMENT

Commandement Chef de section (Sergent) FNC + Grenades

Véhicule Canonnier (Soldat) FNC + Canon 25mm + Coax

Chauffeur (Caporal) GP

MAG Adjoint de section* (Caporal) FNC + Grenades + LAW**

Tireur MAG (Soldat) MAG + GP

1 Tireur Minimi « 1 » (Soldat) Minimi + LAW**

Tireur FNC*** « 1 » (Soldat) FNC (AW**) + Grenades + LAW**

2 Tireur Minimi « 2 » (Soldat) Minimi + LAW**

Tireur FNC*** « 2 » (Soldat) FNC (AW**) + Grenades + LAW**

* cumule la fonction de Pourvoyeur MAG ;

** Rangés ŕ bord du véhicule, emportée en cas de besoin en débarqué ;

*** Brevetés « Tireur AW », ils cumulent cette fonction.

MUNITIONS

ARME BASIC LOAD

Total (par arme) Sur l’homme*

C 25 mm 327 /

MAG M5 (Coaxiale) 2500 /

MAG M2 (au sol)

Minimi 2000 3x200

AW 70 20

FNC 300 3x30

GP 30 30

Grenades 12 De 2 Å• 4 par homme

TelGren (« Mortar » dans OFP) 9 **

LAW 10 **

Mine ATM-6 3 /

** Rangés ŕ bord du véhicule, emportée en cas de besoin en débarqué.

MOYENS OPTIQUES ET D’ECLAIRAGE

Chef Canonnier Chauffeur MAG Minimi FNC (AW)

Jumelles 1 / / / / /

NVGoggles 1 1 1 1 1 1

Fusées éclairantes 3x6*

*(Pistolet Lance Fusées): 6 White, 6 Red, 6 green (lancées par quelle arme dans OFP ?)

ROLE DES MEMBRES DE LA SECTION

CHEF DE SECTION

Responsable de la section vis-Å•-vis de son Chef de Peloton, en particulier au niveau :

Commandement

Valeur professionnelle et morale, donne l’exemple. Connaissances parfaites des hommes de sa section, des procédés de combat, de l’armement.

Préparation au combat

Discipline, instruction, moral .

Conduite du combat

Exécute en permanence et totalement les ordres du chef de peloton, prend des initiatives dans le cadre de la mission et de la situation connue. Il doit ętre capable, en cas de nécessité, de reprendre la conduite du véhicule et de remplacer le canonnier.

CANNONIER

Il exécute les ordres du Chef de Section, il devient Chef de Véhicule en l’absence du Chef de Section. Il est responsable de la mise en śuvre de l’armement de bord (Canon, Coax), de la sűreté immédiate, de la dissimulation du véhicule. Il guide le chauffeur pour l’amélioration d’une position de tir ou d’observation. Il observe et se tient pręt ŕ ouvrir le feu sur des objectifs inopinés se présentant dans son secteur. Il doit ętre capable de choisir une arme, un secteur, une ligne d’ouverture de feu et du moment du réapprovisionnement en munition.

CHAUFFEUR

Il exécute les ordres du Chef de Section ou du Chef de Véhicule en l’absence du Chef de Section. Il participe Å• la sűreté immédiate et Å• la dissimulation du véhicule. Lors des mouvements, il recherche en permanence les positions propices Å• un arrÄ™t inopiné (couverts…) et les itinéraires Å• couverts. Il réagit d’initiative aux tirs (zigzag, marche arriÄre…). Il observe en permanence l’itinéraire ET ses abords immédiats et transmet les renseignements au chef de véhicule.

ADJOINT DE SECTION / PORVOYEUR MAG

Désigné parmi le anciens et/ou les plus expérimentés, aide le Chef de Section dans le commandement de la section, en son absence, il reprend le commandement et doit donc se tenir au courant (ętre « aware » ) de la situation. S’occupe du ravitaillement de la section. IL DIRIGE L’EQUIPE MAG (en détermine l’emplacement exact et corrige son tir).

En tant que Pourvoyeur MAG, il s’occupe du ravitaillement en munitions de la MAG et se tient, en permanence, pręt ŕ reprendre la mission du Tireur MAG (si ce dernier venait ŕ ętre blessé ou ŕ mourir bętement…)

TIREUR MAG

Met en śuvre son arme au profit de la section en suivant les ordres du Chef de Section et de l’Adjoint.

TIREUR MINIMI

Se tient toujours pręt ŕ débarquer rapidement pour assurer la sécurité rapprochée du véhicule. En démonté, avec leur binôme FNC, forment une équipe de voltigeur, sont les principaux servants des LAW, mines, grenades. Ils observent et tirent dans le secteur désigné par le Chef de Section.

TIREUR FNC / TIREUR AW

Se tient toujours pręt ŕ débarquer rapidement pour assurer la sécurité rapprochée du véhicule. En démonté, avec leur binôme Minimi, forment une équipe de voltigeur, sont les principaux servants des LAW, mines, grenades et TELGREN. Ils observent et tirent dans le secteur désigné par le Chef de Section. Doit toujours se tenir pręt ŕ reprendre la mission (donc, son arme) du Tireur Minimi si celui était blessé ou tué.

En tant que Tireur AW, il exécute les ordres du Chef de Section, assure une observation avec sa lunette de visée et renseigne, élimine en priorité le personnel clé de l’ennemi (tireur d’élite, chefs, servants d’armes automatiques, servants d’armes antichars, chauffeurs,…), accompagne le Chef de Section lorsque celui-ci se rend ŕ un OGp*, part en Recce, afin d’assurer sa protection.

Arf... It's in french, sorry but still understandable for u, no?

[mr. Duck 0]

Maybe for Ran it is, but for the rest of us. Uhm, I don't think so. But then again, maybe I am wrong, maybe there are lot's of French folks out here...

[cam0flage 0]

A lot of information on subject here:

http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/MODORG/

[David Shipley 0]

Interesting. Does this mean more than one man in a (mechanized) squad can carry a LAW or Carl Gustav? More, when you need it? Someone said before it's always one LAW, and more in an anti-tank team.

I usually resign myself to having one guy using a LAW or Gustav. And it works when you're dealing with the stray tank or BMP.

[Jan Masterson 0]

In our (Belgian) army, we have two riflemen per section (similar to US squad). Every riflemen can carry one to four LAW but there are usually stored in the AiFV and taked if we need them. In extreme situation, the 2 Minimi (called M249 in USA) gunner can carry 1 LAW each.

A the platoon level, we have an AT Team (literaly "Equipe Milan") who use the Milan Atk missile. This missle is more similar to AT4 than the LAW. The MILAN is exclusively used by this team not by any Rifle Section.

Hope this help.

(The post i've posted before explain what is the organization, weapons and Basic Load (munition dotation per day, or the minimum ammunition amount taht each soldier carries in regards of the weapon he use). The detailed role of each section member is also described. Our organization is UK inspirated so a bit similar to the canadian one. By reading many articles about military tactics and organization, i see that the sort and number of weapons used greatly influence the organization of unit at all level.)

[Wick_105 0]

just to let you guys know. the "carl G" as we call it here is not a guided weapon nor is it a rocket launcher(except for improved munitions wich are unreliable at best), the carl gustav is an 84mm recoiless weapon which uses a cassed projectil that has no bottom the primer is on the side of the casing near the rear...IT IS REALLY REALLY LOUD. I have fired them two times once with T.P.T.T or target practice trainer tracer,and the other time with a standard HEAT.T

or high explosive anti tank tracer...BOOM that old tank hull must have jumped 20 feet in the air couz I know I did