The Iraq Thread

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 20 2003,19:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They of course expressed no hatred towards Saddam since they would probably get shot for it)<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe they would have gotten shot for not expressing hatred toward the United States.

Anyone asked the over 4 million Iraqi nationals who have fled over the years from Iraq what they think?

BTW, for a contrary reading to the Danish TV report, I repost this article link, fresh from Baghdad.

Maybe Danish TV has their agendas, too?

[Winters 1]

Sarcasm and even Jokes often do not travel well over the internet.

That said, i hope the civilian casualties will be minimal at best.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,19:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anybody up for setting up a voice channel?<span id='postcolor'>

Just start up an OFP MP server using DirectPlay.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 20 2003,10:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I find it amusing that Bush claims that God is on his side, while the Pope is against the war. I thought the Pope outranked the President of the US when it came to being in touch with the All Mighty.

Guess Bush will be heading for the Vatican next.

Religion is funny.<span id='postcolor'>

I guess it's because Dubya is Protestant. But I see what you're saying

[Guest]

The missile attacks on Kuwait City have stopped an hour ago. Kuwaiti defense ministry confirms that so far 28 explosions have been registered in the direction of coallition military positions. Conflicting reports are coming in putting the number of coalition casualties between 5 and 30. /AFP 18:21 CET

[shrike 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Mar. 20 2003,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> But rather trying to dicern the bigger perspective of this 'pax americana' era. Really depressing it is indeed

Look at this site (and especially read the 2:nd document on the Publications/reports page "Rebuilding America's Defenses" ) while waiting for more tasty reports:

http://www.newamericancentury.org<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be sad Pukko if replies to this will be rare. I tried to point that out several pages ago already but it was widely ignored...I hope your voice - being an old-schooler and a more frequent poster - will find a more ample echo.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The missile attacks on Kuwait City have stopped an hour ago. Kuwaiti defense ministry confirms that so far 28 explosions have been registered in the direction of coallition military positions. Conflicting reports are coming in putting the number of coalition casualties between 5 and 30. /AFP 18:21 CET <span id='postcolor'>

What's your source on this? I've got no clue what AFP and CET mean.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or maybe it's just hard to tell the difference when you're only reading someone's text.<span id='postcolor'>

You know perfectly well what I meant!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anybody up for setting up a voice channel?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you trying to ridicule me - because if you are I would be happy to risk a post restriction by throwing insults at you!

[Longinius 1]

"BTW, for a contrary reading to the Danish TV report, I repost this article link, fresh from Baghdad.

Maybe Danish TV has their agendas, too?"

Well, it was an American interview transmitted on Danish television. So, it must be an American agenda.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The missile attacks on Kuwait City have stopped an hour ago. Kuwaiti defense ministry confirms that so far 28 explosions have been registered in the direction of coallition military positions. Conflicting reports are coming in putting the number of coalition casualties between 5 and 30.  /AFP 18:21 CET <span id='postcolor'>

What's your source on this?  I've got no clue what AFP and CET mean.<span id='postcolor'>

AFP is a news agency CET is "Central Euorpean Time" or GMT+1.

As I said earlier, I'm picking this off a live Swedish military newsfeed that basically pipes translated messages from all major news agencies. These are unconfirmed, direct reports so conflicting information is not unusual. This is just the raw information.

[MP Studio 0]

CET is Central European Time i suppose, because its now 18.32 here.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shrike @ Mar. 20 2003,18:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Mar. 20 2003,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> But rather trying to dicern the bigger perspective of this 'pax americana' era. Really depressing it is indeed

Look at this site (and especially read the 2:nd document on the Publications/reports page "Rebuilding America's Defenses" ) while waiting for more tasty reports:

http://www.newamericancentury.org<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be sad Pukko if replies to this will be rare. I tried to point that out several pages ago already but it was widely ignored...I hope your voice - being an old-schooler and a more frequent poster - will find a more ample echo.<span id='postcolor'>

Yup,

And I would like to repost what I wrote an hour ago, since I recon the majority of posts here now will not be read in full anymore in this high 'post flow' - so maybe this one:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I would appreciate if we could have 2 threads about Iraq now:

One with entertaining war details - like this thread is turning in to now.

And another, maybe "The pax americana thread" (observe its not an offensive name - but used by the republicans themselves) - where we could discuss surrounding international developments.

What do you say about it moderators? Its really pointless to visit this thread if one do not only want to discuss/read details about the very present war. Any longer, not directly action focused, posts will be pointless here now... Maybe change this thread´s title to 'pax americana', and allow a new 'action tread' ? <span id='postcolor'>

Any comments moderators? Yo, denoir!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ Mar. 20 2003,18:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Any comments moderators? Yo, denoir!<span id='postcolor'>

Yes: Please hold. We're discussing it in the moderator's forum.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 20 2003,23:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or maybe it's just hard to tell the difference when you're only reading someone's text.<span id='postcolor'>

You know perfectly well what I meant!<span id='postcolor'>

But you didn't know what I meant, thats the problem.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anybody up for setting up a voice channel?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you trying to ridicule me - because if you are I would be happy to risk a post restriction by throwing insults at you!<span id='postcolor'>

No. I was saying that since it is so hard to decipher what someones attitude is through just text and letters, it would be easier with a voice channel.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AFP is a news agency CET is "Central Euorpean Time" or GMT+1.

As I said earlier, I'm picking this off a live Swedish military newsfeed that basically pipes translated messages from all major news agencies. These are unconfirmed, direct reports so conflicting information is not unusual. This is just the raw information.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh ok. I just haven't heard anything about it on American news yet. This is the type of thing that would be all over the news.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh ok.  I just haven't heard anything about it on American news yet.  This is the type of thing that would be all over the news.<span id='postcolor'>

It's usually late. The reports on the missile attacks have been delayed by hours today by US media and the information that they have is still conflicting. So they are not more reliable in any way, just slower.

So my principle now is to get a large quantity of raw information and then cross reference it myself. Right now there are two sources that mention US casualties: Reuters that reported 3 dead and now AFP with it's report.

Edit: A general question - has anybody seen any reports from the ground in Iraq today? If the answer is now then it's indicative that there have indeed been casualties. There are plenty of reporters on the ground with the US troops. If on the other hand there have been many reports today from those reporters then there have probably not been any casualties.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I agree with Pukko about having two threads related to this issue, its something that occured to me seeing as large posts about geo-political matters and the -rightness/wrongness- of war dont gel very well with bulletin type detail of the fighting as it happens

Im still trying to find confirmation of what Denoir has said about NATO pilots KIA.

The closest i can find are from rather biased sources

(yugoslav ,russian etc)

http://www.warinfo.org.yu/natodown.html

http://www.aeronautics.ru/natodownunclassified.htm

i cannot find any source widely regarded as credible having any information about this. If this is true it really does seem to have been neglected by the media.If all the aircraft had disintegrated i could see that neglect as being more likely but i think you mentioned crash sites previously...

FAS does not seem to mention it

*-but then the last report listed there is Nov '99-*

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/allied_force.htm

I can find nothing on the KFOR or NATO sites

Ok though i regard this as highly interesting this is not the place to discuss this, i will not go on

In Iraq from watching the BBC

a major ground operation seems to be underway

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 20 2003,18:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i cannot find any source widely regarded as credible having any information about this. If this is true it really does seem to have been neglected by the media.If all the aircraft had disintegrated i could see that neglect as being more likely but i think you mentioned crash sites previously...<span id='postcolor'>

I gave you the references to two KFOR reports. You don't get any more credible information then that.

I have a paper copy of both reports somewhere here, so if there is any specific information that you wish, I can dig them out and find the information you want.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

incidentally i have just heard a phone interview with a reporter with thr troops but it was cut off with a strange noise...

I have not -seen- a reporter with the troops for a few hours now

[edit]*Right now Gavin Hewit with the BBC is reporting with a phone link with the 101st Airborne he said there has recently been an overwhelming 'onslaught' by the US forces lasting 25 minutes, he does not report casualties or any significant Iraqi return fire- he is also reporting hearing Arab voices shouting out in the area in the last few minutes, it sounds like there has now been close contact*[edit]

Denoir-Yes, unfortunatly no web site i can find actually seems to mention those reports (perhaps not surprisingly given what you have said)  

I was not necessarily disbelieving you so much as regarding the media silence as rather strange

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 20 2003,18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh ok.  I just haven't heard anything about it on American news yet.  This is the type of thing that would be all over the news.<span id='postcolor'>

It's usually late. The reports on the missile attacks have been delayed by hours today by US media and the information that they have is still conflicting. So they are not more reliable in any way, just slower.

So my principle now is to get a large quantity of raw information and then cross reference it myself. Right now there are two sources that mention US casualties: Reuters that reported 3 dead and now AFP with it's report.

Edit: A general question - has anybody seen any reports from the ground in Iraq today? If the answer is now then it's indicative that there have indeed been casualties. There are plenty of reporters on the ground with the US troops. If on the other hand there have been many reports today from those reporters then there have probably not been any casualties.<span id='postcolor'>

foxnews has a guy with an camera and a cell phone,he with the 3rd marine div. or something.Anyways they have to move their position because of artillery fire.Well atleast that's what i was picking up on tv.Also patriot missile shot down an scud,or some iraqi missile.

--edit

he says he still in north kuwait.

--edit2

He doesn't have the camera on though.

--edit3

It's not the 3rd,it's the 1st recon marine,something.

[Warin 0]

Please move all posts on the military action in Iraq to this thread. The current Iraq thread is still open for business as a forum of the socio-political ramifications of the current events.

Thanks all, hope this makes both threads easier to follow.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 19 2003,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 20 2003,17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am still confused that one man gets what he wants while the whole world protests against it.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean Saddam, right? <span id='postcolor'>

Hell no

[Mora2 0]

Thanks for the military aspects of war post, i was gonnas ask if this mix would continue all in this thread.

There we goooooooo

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also patriot missile shot down an scud,or some iraqi missile.<span id='postcolor'>

Take that with a pinch of salt. Hitting ballistic missiles with improvised SAM systems is bloody hard. The hit ratio of the Patriot in '91 was appaling, but it was reported as sucessful to calm the public.

[Pukko 0]

Ok, whooa. The calm after the storm....  

I'm sorry for my 'entertainment ranting' about the war news storm.. I just feel, partly torn apart, and partly just sad over the fact that its so easy to just settle down for the coming weeks in a 'war entertainment coma' - just to wake up after it, feeling empty and depressed when 'its all over'. We have probably all been down that road, and remembering myself during GW1 - I try to avoid that happening again.

Its one thing to fall into such a mental stadium during the wordcup for example - but starting to drift that way in yet another war just makes me sad. Its just a fact that war today is in big parts entertainment  

********

I heard on swedish tv a correspondant in washinton telling that now Hans Blix has joined France in the scapegoat-club in US media... When Swedish primeminister Göran Persson was asked what he thought about that (after he talked just about Blix in an interview from the EU topmeeting today in Brusells) he said something like: "Its sad to see how that kind of extreme rightwing opinions flow in US media today, but it will probably turn for the better  again".

What have you heard about scapegoats for the current war? Can one interpret the need for a scapegoat as that the support for the war is really not as good as reported in the US and UK?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Its always nice to have a scapegoat when things go wrong(the French made it easier for Blair to accuse them of being unreasonable by saying beforehand they would veto a resolution)

, but i think after the meeting in Brussels including Blair and Chirac there will be somewhat less of that talk in London if not Washington. There has already been some criticism of scapegoating of the French by some Members of Parliament(UK) and now that the war is underway i think the UK government will try to focus on the war and leave the diplomatic failures behind them.