The Iraq Thread

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,09:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">....and you hurt a lot of people in the process and made more enemies....Why is that so hard for you to understand?<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh I get it. So now Al Queda isn't attacking us because we're not muslim, they're attacking us for what we did in the 80's?

[Major Fubar 0]

You say that sarcastically, but you're basically right.

BTW, when did the US become the world policy maker, isn't that what we have the UN for? Why does America get to decide who does and doesn't have certain weapons, especially when it is a country that has never attacked the US itself?

I'm not pro Iraq as such, but I say let the middle east deal with their own problems, Western intervention in the area has only made matters worse. The only reason we care is because of our precious oil. If you don't believe me, go back through recent history and take a look at how many countries have switched from being considered friends of the west and then back again. The whole situation is too murky for any world power to go charging in and deciding who is in the right with any sort of moral accuracy.

My 2 cents, now let the flaming and US propoganda commence!  

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Revenge is not a good reason?? Then what the hell is the US doing now?<span id='postcolor'>

Defending itself.  You think this is about revenge for September 11th?  Do you really think that the president would use his countrys military force for revenge?.<span id='postcolor'>

Of course he would, if he thought it would gain him and his party popularity and votes. Don't be naieve, this type of action has been going on everywhere in the world ever since politics were invented.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,04:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again from the report:<span id='postcolor'>

For the last time, I'm not going to recognize that report as anything except anti-U.S. propoganda.  There are at least two sides to every story of things that have happened.  The events in Somalia for example.<span id='postcolor'>

Cool man, suit yourself, in that case, I'm done for tonight with this.I have made my case and I decline to recognize you further on this thread because I will obviously get further arguing with a brick . Your opinion is set in stone True Believer. Like I said earlier, what would you say to an Iraqi who told you "I will not recognize anything the western world says because it is clearly biased and is all anti-Saddam Hussein Propaganda" - wait- No need to answer me since I'm off, just please think about it

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You still haven't told me what you would do in the U.S.' position. Kind of a sticky situation isn't it? Things the president isn't responsible he has to take care of. Whether they were right or wrong is irrelevant, they happened and there's no changing that. We have to deal with what's going on right now, and that's what the presidents doing.<span id='postcolor'>

Close all bases in foreign territory, bring your troops home, and defend yourself there. That's what I would do, and a few people here have mentioned it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ohh I get it. So now Al Queda isn't attacking us because we're not muslim, they're attacking us for what we did in the 80's?

<span id='postcolor'>

They're attacking you because you have military bases in the Middle East. That is all, have a nice night

[Guest]

Tovarish, I think your line of argument is futile. You are making the assumption that one human life is worth one human life no matter if it is American, Afgani or whatever. This view is apparently not shared by everybody especially now by many Americans (I hate to generalize like this, but my english isn't good enough the express exactly what I mean, bare with me for a while, I'll try to explain what I mean).

This is not because they are evil or lack moral, but because of the environment they were raised in. America is a strong self dependent society and as such inevitably becomes isolationist. Most Americans have very little need for thinking or worrying about other countries.

Now in that picture you put the WTC attacks. Some dark evil power suddenly interferes in a very nasty way. Something unknown hurts them (must be evil). So they have to do something, right? They have to defend themselves.

Unfortunately they don't have the slightest clue of who the enemy is or how to defeat him. There comes Afganistan. It's the closest thing they can find. However it is a big failure. The personification of the Evil, Osama isn't killed and nobody thinks that it is over. How could it be? Combine that with politcs and powerplays (politicians getting stronger by uniting the nation) and we have the situation that we have today. America must still defend itself against an unknown enemy. Iraq is obviously bad. Saddam is evil, everybody knows that, that's what they said on TV the last gulf war. He is also from the Mid East. Combine that fact with the fact that he is evil: surely he must have terrorist ties too. Guilt by association. Bush put it very well: You are either with us or with the terrorists.

The downside of this is that the Afgani villager who gets killed by a 'smart' bomb is just as much a human being as the American guy who got killed in the WTC. Sure it is more dramatic when a familiar thing like a sky scraper gets destroyed, but one should be able to understand, at least on an abstract level that the Afgani farmer who got killed is just as human. How of the people killed in Afganistan do you think were connected to the WTC attacks? I mean really?

Now, I do symphatize with FSPilot. He is defending his country. I would probably have done the same thing if I was in his position. That doesn't however change the fact that there is an objective reallity behind it all.

Right now we are going towards a cultural/religious/ethic clash. Take a look at the situation in Israel. Have violent solutions helped? This is the exact situation that the US is pushing itself now. The more people you kill, the more people will hate you and try to kill you. You in turn will hate them and kill them. A spiral of violence.

I am not that naive to think that we can stop all wars and that wars can be avoided. However, given the situation that the WTC attack was a retaliatory attack, you might get a hint that revenge for that might not be an ideal situation. Especially not with such brute force methods as a war where you inevitably kill more innocents then the enemy. Such is the nature of every war.

[FSPilot 0]

Denoir, I'd agree with your post almost completely except for the fact that you don't propose a solution.

I realize now that we can't just bomb whoever turns out to be a terrorist, but what else are we going to do? This is a threat, it's going to cost American lives, we are going to have to protect ourselves. And if we can't come up with a solution other than retaliation through military force we're going to get stuck, like you said, in Israel's position.

So tell me, what do you think the U.S. can do?

I'll take a look at what Tovarish said.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Close all bases in foreign territory, bring your troops home, and defend yourself there. That's what I would do, and a few people here have mentioned it.<span id='postcolor'>

I may not be sure what you mean, so correct me if I'm wrong. But this isn't a war where there are fronts. If we put all our forces back in the U.S. it wouldn't help anything. The terrorists from September 11th didn't break through our fortifications using superior firepower and tactics, they snuck in and killed as many civilians as we can. I don't think defending our homeland with our troops would help any.

And what would the people who want U.S. troops in their land for protection think?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 13 2002,05:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tovarish, I think your line of argument is futile. You are making the assumption that one human life is worth one human life no matter if it is American, Afgani or whatever.<span id='postcolor'>

Denoir, I have stopped believing in quite a few things in my life.

First I stopped believing in Communism.

Then I stopped believing in God.

There are one or two girls and a few "friends" I have stopped believing in over the years.

But I have always, and will always believe that all human life is worth the same. It's one of those "set in stone" beliefs, much like the one FSPilot has about US foreign policy

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He is defending his country. <span id='postcolor'>

No, he is not defendíng his country as it was never attacked by Irak forces. He´s trying to explain a change i policy that is not justified at all, and goes to worlwide dictarship.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's one of those "set in stone" beliefs, much like the one FSPilot has about US foreign policy <span id='postcolor'>

Or your anti-U.S. beliefs.

And didn't you say you were leaving this conversation for the time being?

Balschoiw, he didn't mean literally. I'm defending my country's current and past foreign policy, but I'm not in the military.

Yet, at least.

[Major Fubar 0]

Blind patiotism is a wonderful thing.

Most of Germany was behind Hitler's foreign policy at the beginning too.

Don't be a sheep and accept that everything your country does is right. Learn to think for yourself. You won't be dissappointed.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't be a sheep and accept that everything your country does is right.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By FSPilot

The conspiracy about Pearl Harbor: mistake. Lying about spy planes over the Soviet Union: mistake.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't judge people you don't listen to.

[Major Fubar 0]

Sorry I didn't research your entire history before posting.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I have always, and will always believe that all human life is worth the same.<span id='postcolor'>

But do you believe in Beatles?  

Personally, I’d modify your statement to something like “all innocent life is worth the same.† You’ll have a hard time convincing me that 1 AQ terrorist = 1 NYC citizen.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,0506)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Close all bases in foreign territory, bring your troops home, and defend yourself there. That's what I would do, and a few people here have mentioned it.<span id='postcolor'>

Just a reminder that many of the bases you’re referring to are there as a direct result of our failed attempts at isolationism (that you’re now suggesting we return to) in the first half of the last century.  The simple fact of the matter is that if you’re called upon to be the “big stick,†whether for NATO or the UN, it makes logistical sense to be forward deployed.  If we were ever to use FORCE to remain in a host country, which has NEVER happened, you’d have grounds for an argument.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,0506)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They're attacking you because you have military bases in the Middle East.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.  AQ and OBL have stated this time and again.  (Oh, and now because we support Israel, as if OBL gives a flying phuck about the Palestinians -- but I digress.)  However, to lend credence to this nonsense by suggesting that their attacks are retaliatory implies that our military’s physical presence somehow justifies AQ in attacking civilians.  The only thing that they’re “retaliating†against is a collective bruised ego – i.e., “Kill the infidels whose presence, in our learned opinion <pauses to shoot Afghani woman in back of head with AK-47 for accidentally revealing ankle> besmirches our precious holy land.â€

The bottom line is that you can call it “revenge†if you like, but to us it’s fighting back.  And just to address one other point: I concede that we will probably never be able to end terrorism.  Then again, we’ll never eliminate crime either.  Does that mean that all policemen around the world should give up?

Semper Fi <checks watch> and good night.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry I didn't research your entire history before posting.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I'm sorry you didn't read what was on the page before this one.

E6H, I couldn't of said it better myself.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,06:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And didn't you say you were leaving this conversation for the time being? <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have made my case and I decline to recognize you further on this thread because I will obviously get further arguing with a brick .<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally, I’d modify your statement to something like “all innocent life is worth the same.†You’ll have a hard time convincing me that 1 AQ terrorist = 1 NYC citizen. <span id='postcolor'>

Let me put it this way, if you take an innocent life, you just used up whatever value yours had. But what about the inocents

in Afghanistan? And let me take you back to Bart. Jan's post:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a child I lived in comunistic Czechoslovakia. There was, and is, good education system so people was educated. It was reign of terror but majority of people doesn't know or they didn't want to know. Every elections comunistic party has 100%(! of all votes. Everything seems to be correct. I thought west imperialistic countries are our enemies because they want to destroy our prospering happy country and I has only one planned future - as member of communist party. I thought it's only one good way. Our problem was solved peacefully over time.

But if there were some "liberators" that came to our country, killing our citizens, bombing our factories, towns (many military resources was located near towns) I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".

<span id='postcolor'>

What about those Afghans who had no dealings with terrorists before the war started, and are just acting in defense of their country?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just a reminder that many of the bases you’re referring to are there as a direct result of our failed attempts at isolationism (that you’re now suggesting we return to) in the first half of the last century. The simple fact of the matter is that if you’re called upon to be the “big stick,†whether for NATO or the UN, it makes logistical sense to be forward deployed. If we were ever to use FORCE to remain in a host country, which has NEVER happened, you’d have grounds for an argument.<span id='postcolor'>

If you would read the report I posted perhaps you would think differently about the isolationist position the US had...but ah fuck it, it's all anti-US propaganda right?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we were ever to use FORCE to remain in a host country, which has NEVER happened, you’d have grounds for an argument.

<span id='postcolor'>

Guantanamo, Cuba. They've been asking you to leave since 1959

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Borntokill @ Dec. 11 2002,04:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The problem with the Americans is not in their political leadership. It is in the people. Think about it: who founded the American population. The answer is people that Europe didn't want to keep around: criminals, stupid people, very poor people etc. The American people are besically genetically defective.

They are also subconsciously aware of this and that is why they throw bombs left and right: minority complex.<span id='postcolor'>

America was founded by colonies, not by the crap of the world. Historically seen, most of the criminals have been sent to Australia. Learn your lessons before you say something...

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Dec. 12 2002,08:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I have always, and will always believe that all human life is worth the same.<span id='postcolor'>

But do you believe in Beatles?  

Personally, I’d modify your statement to something like “all innocent life is worth the same.† You’ll have a hard time convincing me that 1 AQ terrorist = 1 NYC citizen.<span id='postcolor'>

I totally agree with Tovarish, to me, the life of every human being is equal.

A man from AQ fights for what he thinks is a good thing, you fight for what you think is a good thing, the AQ guy thinks you do bad stuff, you think he does bad stuff.

There's no difference actually, every person is unique and every person, even the biggest dickhead deserves to live his life, to have a family, and to die in peace.

Who are we to judge that someone from NY is worth more than someone from AQ? The NY people think this is right, but the AQ ppl think it's exactly the other way, AQ man is worth more than NY man.

There's only one person who can judge these kinda things, and i don't believe in him.

Every life is equal, the life of an animal is equal to the life of a human. Lots of people look at animals, AQ and stuff like that like bad people or 'just animals'.

That's not the way to think about something/one, you need to use lifes.

When today 5 allied soldiers die and 11 AQ soldiers then i will think, 16 men died for nothing, another 16 lifes wasted, another 16 wifes who lose their husband, another 16 sons who lose their fathers, another 16 fathers who lose their sons.

While other people think, 11 bad guys killed (party! and 5 of our great heroes died in battle.

I count lifes, not persons.

We are all the same, there's no need to prefer certain people dead.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">As a child I lived in comunistic Czechoslovakia. There was, and is, good education system so people was educated. It was reign of terror but majority of people doesn't know or they didn't want to know. Every elections comunistic party has 100%(! of all votes. Everything seems to be correct. I thought west imperialistic countries are our enemies because they want to destroy our prospering happy country and I has only one planned future - as member of communist party. I thought it's only one good way. Our problem was solved peacefully over time.

But if there were some "liberators" that came to our country, killing our citizens, bombing our factories, towns (many military resources was located near towns) I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".

<span id='postcolor'>

And this is exactly what happens in Iraq, that is one of the reasons why some people won't accept an invasion.

Thank you to the person who posted this...

[BaronVonRed 0]

Many here are making assumptions for the sake of arguing. Bush (the current one ) hasn't bombed Iraq. But if there is something he wants from Saddam, he'd be a fool not to capitalize on the potential in THAT bluff. I'm not saying he won't, but I am saying it is possible he is milking what he can.

It's also possible that high level officials have information that we don't. You think George is doing this to gain votes? WRONG. Look what happened to his father in the post-Iraq war election. George is losing credibility in the US with each passing day. At least consider it.

Some here really don't care about the issues at hand, but find it a convenient US-bashing opportunity. I'm not saying all of those opposed to the US stance are bashing because, in all honesty, I previously took a strong position in support of a war on Saddam, but I am now starting to have second thoughts on this based on some of the arguments here and by talking to others.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 12 2002,14:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Many here are making assumptions for the sake of arguing. Bush (the current one    ) hasn't bombed Iraq. But if there is something he wants from Saddam, he'd be a fool not to capitalize on the potential in THAT bluff. I'm not saying he won't, but I am saying it is possible he is milking what he can.

It's also possible that high level officials have information that we don't. You think George is doing this to gain votes? WRONG. Look what happened to his father in the post-Iraq war election. George is losing credibility in the US with each passing day. At least consider it.

Some here really don't care about the issues at hand, but find it a convenient US-bashing opportunity. I'm not saying all of those opposed to the US stance are bashing because, in all honesty, I  previously took a strong position in support of a war on Saddam, but I am now starting to have second thoughts on this based on some of the arguments here and by talking to others.<span id='postcolor'>

Good to see that you're starting to see certain things

When is the next election anyway?

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Dec. 13 2002,14:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When is the next election anyway?<span id='postcolor'>

Nov 2004. The only thing that may save his neck is if the opposition cannot present a worthy opponent.....IMO

Please don't misunderstand, I still think a lot of it is US-bashing, but some very well thought out meaningful cross examinations have been presented here, and I normally keep an open mind for as long as I can (until the fog of emotion taskes over!!! ).

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

...(pause)...I am not even sure where to begin here..........a few points:

1) War is a good thing (that's how nations are formed, created, and destroyed; it's an endless cycle)

2) Revenge is a justifiable reason for war or military action. While some like to call it "justice," it's revenge nonetheless.

3) Until you European blokes experience a terrorist attack resulting in heavy civilian casualties, refrain from criticizing the US for taking preemptive defensive measures. It took a terrorist attack on an Aussie resort in Southeast Asia to convince the Aussies that indeed this "threat" is a problem and the perpetraitors must be destroyed. And let's not forget the French oil tanker that was attacked. That was a rude awakening for France.

4) The Palestinians are not in "occupied" territory. That is false. In 1967, Israel was attacked by several Arab nations including Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. These countries attempted to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Israel not only defeated these attackers on all fronts in 6 days but managed to take possession of more land in pushing the attackers back. In fact, Israel actually re-took land that once belonged to them thousands of years ago. Go look at a map of Israel and compare it to a map 2,500 years ago. It's about the same.

After the 6-day war in 1967, Israel told the arabs in these captured areas to either leave or stay and live under Israeli rule. Some left and some stayed. There is no "occupied" territory. Israel won the land fair and square not from their aggression but from their defense. This happens in war folks. You have winners, and you have losers. The Palestinians are not innocent "victims." They voluntarily chose to stay under Israeli rule.

5) There will never be peace in the Middle East. Not 1000 years ago, not today, and not 100 years from now. The arabs hate Israel. The US is a friend to Israel so therefore that's why the arabs hate the US.

6)

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 13 2002,15:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) Until you European blokes experience a terrorist attack resulting in heavy civilian casualties, refrain from criticizing the US for taking preemptive defensive measures. It took a terrorist attack on an Aussie resort in Southeast Asia to convince the Aussies that indeed this "threat" is a problem and the perpetraitors must be destroyed. And let's not forget the French oil tanker that was attacked. That was a rude awakening for France.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not going to bother commenting on the first two points of your post.

The third one shows how you should learn some basic history first. Europe has in modern time been targeted by terrorists many many more times then the US has. During the '70 we had new terrorist attacks many times each year. Relative to our populations we certainly took a harder blow from that then the US did from the WTC attack. We managed however to get rid of the terrorists. And mind you, without invading any countries

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 13 2002,15:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...(pause)...I am not even sure where to begin here..........a few points:

1) War is a good thing (that's how nations are formed, created, and destroyed; it's an endless cycle)

2) Revenge is a justifiable reason for war or military action. While some like to call it "justice," it's revenge nonetheless.

3) Until you European blokes experience a terrorist attack resulting in heavy civilian casualties, refrain from criticizing the US for taking preemptive defensive measures. It took a terrorist attack on an Aussie resort in Southeast Asia to convince the Aussies that indeed this "threat" is a problem and the perpetraitors must be destroyed. And let's not forget the French oil tanker that was attacked. That was a rude awakening for France.

4) The Palestinians are not in "occupied" territory. That is false. In 1967, Israel was attacked by several Arab nations including Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. These countries attempted to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Israel not only defeated these attackers on all fronts in 6 days but managed to take possession of more land in pushing the attackers back. In fact, Israel actually re-took land that once belonged to them thousands of years ago. Go look at a map of Israel and compare it to a map 2,500 years ago. It's about the same.

After the 6-day war in 1967, Israel told the arabs in these captured areas to either leave or stay and live under Israeli rule. Some left and some stayed. There is no "occupied" territory. Israel won the land fair and square not from their aggression but from their defense. This happens in war folks. You have winners, and you have losers. The Palestinians are not innocent "victims." They voluntarily chose to stay under Israeli rule.

5) There will never be peace in the Middle East. Not 1000 years ago, not today, and not 100 years from now. The arabs hate Israel. The US is a friend to Israel so therefore that's why the arabs hate the US.

6) <span id='postcolor'>

I agree with MOST of your points, and I agree that if Saddam was part of the WTC or is planning some hanous (sp) terrorist act, then I will request an immediate transfer to the Iraq operation. HOWEVER, there has yet to be produced any concrete evidence of these things (that the general public is aware of). And while I agree revenge is justification, taking it out on someone else for the sake of revenge is not good, in my mind.

All prior empires have fallen, and to think the US will be on top forever is foolish. When the time DOES roll around, we will need all the friends we can get, and we're just not making too many of those lately....

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

We have had other terrorist attacks in the US on much smaller scales that many outside the US never hear about it. These were US citizen terrorists. We have gotten ride of them. Some of them include sniper attacks, abortion clinic bombings, Oklahoma City bombing, school massacres...etc

The key words in my previous post are "resulting in heavy civilian casualties." My comments were in the context of a single massive blow. I am aware of Catholic-Protestant terrorist attacks in the UK (IRA..etc).

The point is that some from the Euro community think the US is over-reacting. Nobody has been in our shoes as of yet. And yes, we will get rid of those sons-o-bitches too.