The Iraq Thread

[FallenPaladin 0]

Yes, you have to like that attitude!

Especially that: "Now you are free and you live in a democracy! But dare to vote someone else than the guys we give you to vote!"

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

All you wanted to know about the statue toppling event (and

significantly more)

First the statue situation was not by any means 'faked' (nor very likely is the wide shot of the square on that website Ludovico posted).I watched the entire thing on the BBC starting at lunch and proceeding over the course of the afternoon.

At first there were only a very few lone Iraqis around making amateurish attempts to pull the statue down (if they were sent by Ahmed Chalabi then they didnt have any appropriate equipment)

They tried to pull it down with a short rope (looked like a curtain rope) and by the time they got it around the statues neck there were at most a few hundred Iraqis who had gradually gathered (including some women and children)

and many many foreign media (not surprising since its right opposite the main reporters hotel)

Finally after watching the Iraqis ineffectual attempts for some hours the US marines stepped (or were asked probably) in with their engineers vehicle.

Even then it took about 45 minutes for them to get a metal cord around the statues neck (with an ineffective attempt to pull it down by the leg first) and just as it was getting dark the statue finally tumbled down

(the part that was endlessly cycled by the media).

Throughout this time the BBC correspondent Rageh Omar was in the crowd interviewing Iraqis and commenting. The crowd did not seem (or sound) like Chalabi militia men(though there may have been some). Rageh Omar (who knows Baghdad quite well) seemed to think they were local. He also made repeated comments to the effect of

'there are not many people in this crowd, a few hundred at most but the US marines are blocking the road at the edge of the square and cars stretch behind it into the distance'

And there were wide camera shots shown live by the BBC of the largely empty square with a cluster of people in the middle

I seem to recall somewhat more than shown on that websites wide shot at the rough time the statue fell...perhaps that was taken slightly earlier/later but then again the picture is very blurry.... no i think the pictures probably real and probably is at the precise statue pulling moment,but a rather unclear and  misleading picture

-from close up youde see 50-70 (more?) people on the US mechanised vehicle itself

- a solid mass of people (including Iraqis and a large crowd of

press people) . The very nebulous 'blob' between the statue and the vehicle is a solid mass of people (some almost on top of each other)

I think that wide picture is the moment when a previously large and quite dispersed crowd rushed in to stomp the statue. Just think of how many people can cram into a telephone box (or a crushing mosh pit) and you have an idea of the density of people in that picture.

All in all a poor and innacurate set of pictures.

(the lower two MAY show the same person(in what situations?)

~A BBC wide camera shot also showed the thousands of cars behind the US road block that Rageh referred to stretching away out of shot.It seems a lot of Iraqis wanted to go through/to the square but the Marines wouldnt let them in (where the Iraqis were going and the reason the Marines stopped them is debatable)

~No doubt there may have been (almost certainly were)  elements of 'stage managing' or 'grandstanding' by the coalition troops (and locals) in the media quarter and relating to this event ... but surely thats how people (and governments) always act around the media.

~ -Possibly- there were Chalabi militia present (those pictures arent at all conclusive) but im convinced that there were also local men/women/children.

~Also shooting tank shells at the reporters hotel certainly wasnt a very good PR move for a force that is supposedly conspiring and going to great lengths to woo the media.

~I dont think theres much doubt among most informed people that -significant- numbers of Iraqis do have enough hatred of Saddam to pull his statue down ( whatever their feelings for the coalition)

~The information clearing house is a 'controversial' information source with definate bias.

So in conclusion

*accusation*-stage managing ,coalition using the media to the fullest extent and the usual media editing to show the 'interesting' parts?

>Certainly possible/very likely.There are countless known examples of highly selective media editing and selective government utilisation of media

('stage managing' -*possibly*- extending to presence of militia to whip up crowds)

*accusation*-Wholesale coalition-media conspiracy/coverup?(The americans couldnt find enough Iraqis who didnt like Saddam? or similar)

>All the evidence i have seen does not prove (or even really suggest) such a thing (the website does not explicitly suggest such a thing either)

The huge line of vehicles behind the US roadblock were quite possibly trying tio get to the square to loot/trash the place/ pull down signs of Saddams rule.

Ockham's sharpest razor applied here may dispose of large tufts of insubstantial fluff, to reveal at the core of the issue a few small grains of rather predictable (boring?) truth.

Its the media who predictably blew one small incident out of proportion.

Small crowd? How small is small? Why is the crowd small? Why were long lines of Iraqi vehicles trying to get into the square?

What were the marines orders? Were the press summoned/directed (no reports of this i have heard)

or did they go out to the event of their own volition? Were the Iraqis summoned /directed?

*Too many unknowns

*Who gives a damn anyway, its obvious

A. governments try to use the media

B. lots and lots of Iraqis hate Saddam

C. im tired and I dont give a damn about this

Accepting the above therefore this whole area of debate/argument and this dialogue(/monologue?) is totally pointless, baseless and

lacking in existential validity. I have or feel absolutly no reasonable justification for the existance of the above (or below) written words.

They may not in fact exist at all.

(The existance of the words can truthfully neither be confirmed and/or proved or denied and/or disproved by me)

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Balschoiw-

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I doubt that. Iraqi people expect the coaltion forces to rebuild what they have destroyed. They expect the help that was granted by GW everytime he found a mic during and before the war. They are not stupid. They see what the promises are worth now.

They demand what they have been promised but they also will never accept exiles to take over their country and will never accept a permanent US presence within Iraq. Now it´s power to the people. That´s what they were promised and that´s the only thing they will accept.

Lies don´t work pretty well these days and the people start to ask questions. The same questions as people ask here"<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.

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*Disclaimer*

Sections of the above appear to make certain assumptions of the kind widely deemed necessary for everyday living in relation to the essential and existential natures of 'reality' ,'truth' and the apparant actuality of certain specific external systems/physical phenomena, but this is indicative of and signifies nothing greater than, and in fact (the assertion of fact being subjective) nothing at all beyond circumstantial support for the possibility of the above

apparent assumptions being actually held ,assumed and accepted by the person of the message poster (IsthatyouJohnWayne).May contain nuts.

-in other words i need a beer/girlfriend

[ralphwiggum 6]

Food supply reaches Baghdad

Not eBay, but bound to happen

Mission Incomplete - unexpected resistance

and i heard that US found 600mil in USD sealed in some places. it was on Saturday edition of LA times, but those bastards don't have the article and won't let you read it unless you register or something.

[LandShark-AL 0]

Denoin what country did the UN build? The UN has been in Kosovo for what 6 years and its not much better off than

it was when the UN got there and as for the U.S. country

building what about west germany japan or panama who

do you think rebuilt them it was not the UN.This war is about

30 day old what do you think your little country could

do in 30 days.I can tell you not much.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 21 2003,01:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has been in Kosovo for what 6 years and its not much better off than it was when the UN got there<span id='postcolor'>

I usually don't respond to clueless posts, but I'm going to make an exception in your case for educational purposes. The UN has been in Kosovo for four years, not six. The infrastructure is fully working. The UCK has been disarmed. The current (feb 2003) homicide rates are lower then the US average. They've had their democratic elections. Etc etc etc

Kosovo is a hell of a lot better then it was after NATO bombed it.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has been in Kosovo for what 6 years and its not much better off than

it was when the UN got there<span id='postcolor'>

Excuse me, but do you have actually any clue on the Kosovo issue ? If you had you´d know that Kosovo is on it´s way back to a modern society with working infrastructure and the only country where the DM is still a valuable currency

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">See?! Good things come from NATO bombings!<span id='postcolor'>

No actually good things come fro the european union and the presence of NATO members and the UN that rebuilt the country. Well, again it´s germany and some other european countries that rebuild it. And there is no oil

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Blair says no to WMD inquiry

"A spokesman for the Tories said: "We have said there should be independent verification of any materials that have been found. We have not said it has to involve the UN but it probably should."

This means that the right wing conservative party is now sounding more internationalist than the supposed left wing

British government.

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Did Iraqi information minister commit suicide?

+ does anyone care now that the war is over?

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POWs return

TV footage made it appear like some bizarre quasi-religious festival of americana. I guess its just a different culture.

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US forces ignored museum warnings (?)

+ artifacts are beginning to be intercepted by customs forces on Iraqs borders (i wonder how many artifacts have already left the country). I certainly dont think it was just a totally spontaneous or disorganised act of looting. All the evidence

tends to point to an oraganised/semi organised professional

criminal/black market involvement.

Customs seize Iraqi artifacts

Expert thieves took artefacts (UNESCO asserts)

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ms Mahon said she would be calling for the United Nations, and not the US, to send inspectors to Iraq. "There is cynicism about the US," she said, "and a number of people have said this to me: they will find them [WMDs] because they will take their own in there with them. That was the reason we went to war, so let's get it verified."

<span id='postcolor'>

That´s exactly what I am afraid of when the ones who started the war now search for the justification. It´s the UN´s job. Noone else is neutral in this case. You´d be makeing the goat the gardener if you sent in US specialists. As a matter of fact this would be the same specialists who provided prove for this war.

Let´s face it. The whole world has been betrayed by the US and Brit administration. What is even worse:

People had to die and still die for a lie.

[LandShark-AL 0]

denoin Thank for making my point.My point being that after

4 years in Kosovo the rebuilding is still going on so give the U.S. 4 years in Iraq before you say they are making a mess of it.I know we have mess up things in the past like every one else has and it is going to be a hard job I think we sould let

them split Iraq up if that turns out to be what they want.

If we can get out of Iraq in 2 years or less It will tell me

we have gone the wrong road with the rebuilding.

[Longinius 1]

"All they said is she has broken legs and a back.Which I don't understand how she got that ,unless you fell from a high attitude.Which likely she didn't."

Car accidents break bones. Falling can break your bones even if its only from a height of one or two meters (unlucky landings are a bitch)

"So she was getting torture."

She was?

"Do you really think they would just leave an american pow in a hospital without any iraqi watching her ? Plus they do say they found ammo,guns,other stuff in the hospital.So it could have been a stronghold.The way i heard the story is that an iraqi lawyer(his wife work in the hospital,thats how he seen her) seen her in the hospital and he walk 8 miles to the marines and told them.The marines sent him back and told him to get maps."

Yes, very nice story. The hopsital had been abandonned though and a medic had tried to hand her over the day before, but been fired upon.

But sure, stories are nice.

[Akira 0]

Fast Food Comes To Iraq

Before anyone else says it let me be the first...

"Jesus Mother F*ckin' Christ!"

[bn880 5]

See this is the problem </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Permission to open the restaurants was granted through the British Army and they will be run by existing franchise holders from Kuwait, with a percentage of any profits going to charity.

<span id='postcolor'> what kind of authority is that? Well you know what I mean.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 22 2003,06:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Jesus Mother F*ckin' Christ!" <span id='postcolor'>

I second that!

[tracy_t 0]

*Cough* Gulf War 2 wasn't for oil no sirree, but liberating the Iraqis *Cough*

Erm... OK:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html

Well that didn't take long did it? Everyone wants their snout in the trough.

BTW: I've only read the last 4 pages of this thread, so if this is old news, sorry...

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tracy_t @ April 22 2003,15:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*Cough* Gulf War 2 wasn't for oil no sirree, but liberating the Iraqis *Cough*

Erm... OK:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html

Well that didn't take long did it? Everyone wants their snout in the trough.

BTW: I've only read the last 4 pages of this thread, so if this is old news, sorry...<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! This is old news here. What took the Guardian so long?!

Minister Paritsky is a touch *cough* *cough* naive. When he originally said it (some time last week or before), he was pretty much laughed at locally.

I'm just hoping we get a better selection of pistachio nuts from there.

[tracy_t 0]

lol. Oh well, news travels slowly to the UK. I only found out the Falklands war ended last week

Anyway folks, slightly OT, but would anyone mind if I used this logo with my sig:

"I do NOT support war with Syria or Iran but North Korea deserves it, yes sirree. No Burger kings in Iraq!!!"

[Longinius 1]

http://www.toccionline.com/creations/realhussein/index.html

[Jinef 2]

It's annoying to be British and not support the war. I know you said administration and acknowledge that the British people did not want a war in the first place but still. I want Britain to integrate into Europe to provide more solidarity, Russia to join NATO to annoy the Americans and we can have some cool exercises where Russia is not restricted by it's status. Also we should expand the Euro rapid reaction force and make it powerful, so there is no division in Europe over corporate enterprising in certain middle eastern countries.

Oh and i thought it was exaggerated when a British soldier said the flags on the vehicles were 10 x 12 ft!

Apparently not, that US pilot must have lost a contact lense or something! Or maybe he can't tell the difference between the British and Iraqi flags. Let's have a lesson.

This is the Iraqi flag.

This is the flag of Great Britain, or the UK. It is not the flag of England.

This is the flag of England.

[Tovarish 0]

Those red crosses are kind of ruining your point mate

[ran 0]

the union jack looks like a practise target

[Guest]

France wants Iraq sanctions lifted

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The French ambassador to the United Nations has proposed the immediate suspension of UN sanctions against Iraq...............

<span id='postcolor'>

It seems like Blaegis was right. I thought that France would have a bit more of a spine than that, but I guess that I was wrong. I only hope Putin still has his balls in the right place.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 21 2003,03:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LandShark-AL @ April 21 2003,01:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has been in Kosovo for what 6 years and its not much better off than it was when the UN got there<span id='postcolor'>

I usually don't respond to clueless posts, but I'm going to make an exception in your case for educational purposes. The UN has been in Kosovo for four years, not six. The infrastructure is fully working. The UCK has been disarmed. The current (feb 2003) homicide rates are lower then the US average. They've had their democratic elections. Etc etc etc

Kosovo is a hell of a lot better then it was after NATO bombed it.<span id='postcolor'>

Why hasn't NATO left then?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 22 2003,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why hasn't NATO left then?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Why KFOR has not been withdrawn?

It is being withdrawn but it will take time since the job is still not finished. There are still a lot of things left to do in Kosovo. It's however only a question of time before Kosovo gets re-integrated into Serbia and KFOR withdraws.

While most of the work is done, UN and KFOR are still there to make sure that it stays that way.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 22 2003,20:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">France wants Iraq sanctions lifted

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The French ambassador to the United Nations has proposed the immediate suspension of UN sanctions against Iraq...............

<span id='postcolor'>

It seems like Blaegis was right. I thought that France would have a bit more of a spine than that, but I guess that I was wrong. I only hope Putin still has his balls in the right place.<span id='postcolor'>

what the heck? we all know how French are

to be honest, i'm kinda releived to see that France is taking a bit more rational way. they wanted the sanctions end, and now they are in good chance to do it.

if UN kept sanctions up, it would mean that UN opposes for sake of opposing, not for humanitarian reasons.