The Iraq Thread

[turms 0]

Actually the svastika,has a history before the nazis took it in use: A Swedish count called Eric von Rosen had the swastika as the family "lucky charm" He propably found it somewhere from India..In 1918 Eric von Rosen donated Finnish airforce its first plane,and the svastika was painted on it.It was the symbol of Finnish airforce until 1944.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 03 2003,00:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*sniff* admirable, and yet somehow so pathetically naive.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep, I expected an immediate insult.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The 20th century's history is written in the blood of folks who trusted that principle alone can win out. Now, don't get me wrong, I think it's a benchmark of civilization that people keep their principles, and in a perfect world your set of ideals would be among the most valuable. But here in Reality?, it is just plain dumb to invest your hopes in innefectual leaders. And did I just detect a hint of French-Canadian existentialism? Good God, I knew it lol.<span id='postcolor'> Your reality is not mine. Now I'm dumb also eh, anyway, talk to me when you can stop making insults.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It isn't simply about influence. It's about applying whatever influence you have to fix the situation, and if you don't have any, you either buddy up with someone who does, or you shut the hell up and keep your head down. That's the name of the game.<span id='postcolor'> Nope, the whole point of what I mentioned (Solidarnosc) is that people of relatively little influence got together and became influencial.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> And without the influence of a certain Great Satan, the Soviet Union might well still be around to crush the occasional popular revolt in the Eastern Bloc. Remember that the next time you wax poetic about idealism's virtue.<span id='postcolor'> You don't really understand the whole story, you have no appreciation for what people themselves were able to achieve and how. If it wasn't for them the U.S. could have sent all it's wealth and the Soviets would still rule. Man, I can't believe I actually hear you saying that.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ April 03 2003,14:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you regard America as being equivalent to Nazi germany (a few broad comparisons -can- be drawn) and a UN mandated post Saddam Iraq as being equivalent to Nazi controlled Russia and europe then go ahead and sign up for Iraqs defence force. Otherwise stop drawing those comparisons.<span id='postcolor'>

Why on earth would I sign up for Iraq's defence forces. And yes there are some similarities between the UK/US invasion of Iraq and the Nazi invasion of Russia. Just like there are many similarities to what UK/US forces do now to what Iraq did to Kuwait 12 years ago. No matter how you twist and turn it, it's an unprovoked attack on another country. The Stalin/Hitler example is very good since in the "Great Patriotic War", as the Russians call it, Stalin was the good guy.

As for post-Saddam government - listen to Arab media for a while. They have already declared this a war of extermination of the Iraqi people. Absurd? To us yes, but not to those fighting in Iraq. And are you still living in Blair's dream world? Wake up, there is not going to be a UN ruled Iraq. USA will install a US led military regime. It's already been decided.

[Welcome_to_my_Nightmare 0]

Hussein is a cornered rat if he is alive. We got him folks. We got him. We shall not let him scurry for the tall grass.

<evil grin>

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Welcome_to_my_Nightmare @ April 03 2003,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hussein is a cornered rat if he is alive. We got him folks. We got him. We shall not let him scurry for the tall grass.

<evil grin><span id='postcolor'>

As if, if he is alive you don't know where he is.

[Guest]

Don't mind Welcome_to_my_Nightmare. It's just Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans who got himself a new account. I forgot to add his IP to the ban list, but I have fixed that now

[Longinius 1]

"Hussein is a cornered rat if he is alive. We got him folks. We got him. We shall not let him scurry for the tall grass."

Well, you had Usama Bin Ladin cornered in a cave, but that didnt help much...

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 03 2003,09:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually the svastika,has a history before the nazis took it in use: A Swedish count called Eric von Rosen had the swastika as the family "lucky charm" He propably found it somewhere from India..In 1918 Eric von Rosen donated Finnish airforce its first plane,and the svastika was painted on it.It was the symbol of Finnish airforce until 1944.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep, and the reverse pattern on the memorial is most likely intentional.

[bn880 5]

Well I just watched the press conference with Colin Powell. It seems he has lost all objectivity. One statement he made was "and they know we don't have any chemical weapons to use". okidoki there Colin

All the questions were very hard line, Colin seemed extremely uneasy and almost gasping for air.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ April 03 2003,15:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I´m sorry but 5 follow up posts could be done in one !!!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe the idea is to capture them so Saddam can't ignite them.

Apologies, it's just more difficult to follow up on individual replies all at once like that.  I'll make more effort to in the future.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah sure...

Therefore Halliburton workers are already at the sites...<span id='postcolor'>

Possibly to make sure they aren't damaged, and to begin getting them ready to resume the oil-for-food program once the war is over.

The possibility exists that they're in it for the oil, but  think it would likely be more beneficial for the Coalition to help the Iraqis use the oil o pay for their own reconstruction, rather than occupy them, impose martial law, then funnel their own money into rebuilding, and try and use the oil to recoup their losses.

Quote (turms @ April 03 2003,09:44)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually the svastika,has a history before the nazis took it in use: A Swedish count called Eric von Rosen had the swastika as the family "lucky charm" He propably found it somewhere from India..In 1918 Eric von Rosen donated Finnish airforce its first plane,and the svastika was painted on it.It was the symbol of Finnish airforce until 1944. <span id='postcolor'>

Quote (bn880 @ April 03 2003)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yep, and the reverse pattern on the memorial is most likely intentional.

<span id='postcolor'>

The symbol was also used in 116th-17th century Japan by Portuguese Missionaries, and the Japanese reffered to it as the 'Manji" (source: Blade of the Immortal). It held a similar meaning to the original svastika.

However, I don't see the relevance of using a svastika, as opposed to the swastika. Not in this particular case, anyway.

[Badgerboy 0]

Good article from The Onion

[Longinius 1]

"Possibly to make sure they aren't damaged, and to begin getting them ready to resume the oil-for-food program once the war is over."

Why would the oil-for-food program continue after the war?

[Guest]

There is one very interesting thing with the post-war Iraq solutions. Iraq is under UN sanctions and a resolution is required to lift them. This gives Russia, France, China & Co an opportunity to force through a UN rule of post-war Iraq. No UN - no lifting of sanctions.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 03 2003,19:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Possibly to make sure they aren't damaged, and to begin getting them ready to resume the oil-for-food program once the war is over."

Why would the oil-for-food program continue after the war?<span id='postcolor'>

To help pay for Humanitarian efforts in Iraq, and possibly to help pay for the rebuilding.

I think they're trying to reorganize it already for Humanitarian aid, but I'm not sure if they'll be able to with the conflict still raging.

Secretary General to Administer Iraq's Oil-For-Food Program

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Security Council March 28 unanimously adopted a resolution allowing U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan to use funds in the oil-for-food program to meet the humanitarian needs of Iraqi civilians suffering the effects of the current conflict.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is one very interesting thing with the post-war Iraq solutions. Iraq is under UN sanctions and a resolution is required to lift them. This gives Russia,France, China & Co an opportunity to force through a UN rule of post-war Iraq. No UN - no lifting of sanctions.

<span id='postcolor'>

Don't the U.N. Sanctions only apply to Iraq's Armament, Political Boundaries, the No Fly Zones, and limit certain trade from foreign contries (most notably arms)?

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Denoir's edit: Fixed quotes. You can't just put

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text

<span id='postcolor'>

it messes up the whole page.

You have to put it like this:

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<span id='postcolor'>

or

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

<span id='postcolor'>

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 03 2003,19:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't the U.N. Sanctions only apply to Iraq's Armament, Political Boundaries, the No Fly Zones, and limit certain trade from foreign contries (most notably arms)?<span id='postcolor'>

Some of the items that Iraq can't import because of the sanctions

And the No-Fly Zones are not UN sanctioned.

[Longinius 1]

"To help pay for Humanitarian efforts in Iraq, and possibly to help pay for the rebuilding."

Oil for FOOD.... Shouldnt the Iraqis be allowed to do what they want with their oil once Saddam has been removed? Or do you suggest that they still should be sanctioned under the oil for food program?

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 03 2003,20:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"To help pay for Humanitarian efforts in Iraq, and possibly to help pay for the rebuilding."

Oil for FOOD.... Shouldnt the Iraqis be allowed to do what they want with their oil once Saddam has been removed? Or do you suggest that they still should be sanctioned under the oil for food program?<span id='postcolor'>

Once everything is settled, I do. However, there is going to most likely be a trasnitory period while Iraq sets up a new Government and the U.S. and the U.N. and U.K. and everyone else involved tries to figure out what's going on.

In the meantime, it would be good if Iraq could use this program to help pay for food (and medicine, and other articles that are covered under Oil-for'Food'

Denoir - Wow. That's a lot of stuff. I hadn't heard about any of that, previously.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 03 2003,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir - Wow.  That's a lot of stuff.  I hadn't heard about any of that, previously.<span id='postcolor'>

That's part of the problem. Because it's not directly affecting us in the first world, we rarely pay attention to what's happening 'over there'.

For instance, without looking it up online, what can you tell me about Rwanda?

Iraq is (mis?)fourtunate enough to be wealthy with oil, so the evil dictator there, who kills his own people, is worthy of the 'gentle ministrations' of the western world

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 03 2003,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of the items that Iraq can't import because of the sanctions<span id='postcolor'>

Hahahah!

"Answering machines"!

Taliban!

[PitViper 0]

Iraq was one of the most modernized middle eastern countries before the Baathists and Saddam took control of the country.

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 03 2003,21:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC Mongoose @ April 03 2003,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir - Wow.  That's a lot of stuff.  I hadn't heard about any of that, previously.<span id='postcolor'>

That's part of the problem.  Because it's not directly affecting us in the first world, we rarely pay attention to what's happening 'over there'.

For instance, without looking it up online, what can you tell me about Rwanda?  

Iraq is (mis?)fourtunate enough to be wealthy with oil, so the evil dictator there, who kills his own people, is worthy of the 'gentle ministrations' of the western world  <span id='postcolor'>

True,I know about Rwanda only what I've heard when belgian paracommandos were there (and some rather nasty incidents with them too).

It has had a long civil war,with ethnic cleansing and atrocities like maiming and killing even women and children.

Just because they belong to 'the other group' (Tutsi or...Hundu I think)

(If you want to know what those para's did I recommend looking it up,I don't really want to post the details)

[PitViper 0]

What stopped Europeans from sending forces to Rwanda?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 03 2003,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq was one of the most modernized middle eastern countries before the Baathists and Saddam took control of the country.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL. No, my dear PitViper, the Baathist modernized the country. They were the first ones that used the oil money to urbanize the country. Before the Baathist revolted in 1959/63, Iraq was an under-developed tribal society. During their (dictatorship) rule, Iraq became the most modern and developed of the Arab countries.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 03 2003,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 03 2003,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq was one of the most modernized middle eastern countries before the Baathists and Saddam took control of the country.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL. No, my dear PitViper, the Baathist modernized the country. They were the first ones that used the oil money to urbanize the country. Before the Baathist revolted in 1959/63, Iraq was an under-developed tribal society.<span id='postcolor'>

Pardon?  I believe the Brits colonized it did they not?

[PitViper 0]

Some discussion regarding "www.iraqbodycount.com" and its methodology.

http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2003_03_30_oxblog_archive.html#91909162

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">UPDATE: According to the AP today, "Iraq says nearly 500 civilians have been killed and more than 4,000 wounded since the war began." In other words, the Iraq Body Count Project's minimum count of Iraqi civilian deaths is higher than what the Iraqi government itself claims!<span id='postcolor'>

amazing. outpropagandizing the baathist regime.