The Iraq Thread

[brgnorway 0]

Interesting analysis from BBC World Service:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Imperial aspirations?

Mr Wolfowitz thinks ordinary Iraqis would greet American troops as liberators; more than that, he said Washington's aim would be seen as liberating an Islamic country from dictatorship.

He is one of those hawks who want to remake the whole Middle East in America's image. They have been labelled democratic imperialists.

Not all the Bush hardliners fall into this camp. Mr Wolfowitz's boss, Donald Rumsfeld, for example, is much more sceptical about ambitious nation-building: whether it is desirable and whether it would work.

But in the vision endorsed by Mr Wolfowitz, a transformed Iraq would not only help secure oil supplies and reduce the threat to Israel.

There is much criticism in Turkey of US policy towards Iraq

It could also become a democratic model which other Arab countries would emulate.

That is all of a piece with Mr Wolfowitz's enthusiastic backing for the admission of Turkey into the European Union: Turkey, too, could be an example of an Islamic but truly democratic country that would help change Muslim attitudes to the West.

Some hardline American commentators have even talked about US military action to bring about similar changes of regime in Syria and Iran.

Hearts and minds

Returning to Iraq, Mr Wolfowitz seems to believe that military intervention would win over hearts and minds in the Arab and Muslim world.

Many observers, especially in Europe, see this as an optimistic and dangerous fantasy.

First, it takes no account of the deep-rooted suspicion of American motives - military action would certainly not be interpreted as a war of liberation.

Second, it ignores the burning resentment of Washington's policy towards Israel.

And third, it fails to see that Islamic militancy of the Osama bin Laden variety is based on a wholesale rejection of US and western influence.

Democracy imposed by Washington is no more acceptable than anything else.

So according to this argument, war on Iraq will simply enlarge the pool of recruits on which al-Qaeda can draw.

<span id='postcolor'>

What are your thoughts on this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2539443.stm

[ralphwiggum 6]

another forum mud slinging.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 04 2002,02:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">another forum mud slinging. <span id='postcolor'>

Why is that?

I'd say it is of relevance because US and their allies might face problems of support in the war on Iraq. After all, Turkey claim they will not let in US troops unless there is a second UN resolution!

If you let people like Wolfowitz travel around the world to gain support and people are turned off, you must also accept questions about motives for a war on Iraq - or at least the ones who will be affected by it?

[ralphwiggum 6]

i'm not talking about the article's content, but what will this thread turn out to be....

oh well..let's wait and see.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 04 2002,07:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">another forum mud slinging. <span id='postcolor'>

My thoughts exactly.

If you want my opinion, the coalition (if any) should decide which type of government we set up in Iraq.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 04 2002,02:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'm not talking about the article's content, but what will this thread turn out to be....  

oh well..let's wait and see.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh - sorry! I'll think before I write next time

[Balschoiw 0]

Let the Iraqui people decide. You claim to free them so let them decide. Freedom is defined that way. It would be no freedom for Iraki´s if they are dictated into another government. BTW Iraki people don´t seem to share the the US opinions on freeing them. They are more afraid of getting killed during liberation. Strange eh ?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 04 2002,03:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let the Iraqui people decide. You claim to free them so let them decide. Freedom is defined that way. It would be no freedom for Iraki´s if they are dictated into another government. BTW Iraki people don´t seem to share the the US opinions on freeing them. They are more afraid of getting killed during liberation. Strange eh ?<span id='postcolor'>

I think you are right, however I cannot help myself from speculating: What IF there never was any sanctions and oil-embargo? Could that have meant most Iraqi's would be sympathetic to being "freed" by US and their allies? After all, Saddams regime is nothing else than a brutal dictatorship?

The kurds of northern Iraq would of course not feel any freedom because an independant nation of Kurdistan is utopic. US would never allow that to happen - Turkey would not like it at all.

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess all that embargos and kids dying cause of missing healthcare will be honored by the Iraki people on the western nations. Their favourite is the US in this. Iraki people in common are not happy about the US struggle to put war on them, for whatever reasons claimed. There were several interviews with people all over Irak (without Iraki secret service or officials) where people did oppose a lot to the plans that are currently made. They want to take their own decisions and not fall under the next oppression. They are very aware that their country "should " be very rich. And they blame Western nations for their current state and not Saddam.

Make it simple. Would you like your country being bombed twice within a decade and then take the government that will be dictated to you once more ? They don´t like it.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 04 2002,03:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And they blame Western nations for their current state and not Saddam.

Make it simple. Would you like your country being bombed twice within a decade and then take the government that will be dictated to you once more ? They don´t like it.<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they don't like it. My question was purely hypothetical. What I'm suggesting is that (as you said yourself) that most Iraqi's fear Saddam and his regime. I'm certain that they want to decide their own fate and would welcome a true democracy - but not "one dictated" by the "war on terror" coalition.

I still believe it could have been otherwise if Saddam was taken out of power and the history of embargo and sanctions had never happened though.

By the way, an interesting parallell is the situation in Afghanistan. I hardly believe most afghans are very impressed by the current puppet regime. If US (and allies) pulled out the so called government wouldn't last very long! I also wonder what will happen when US targets the currently fighting warlords. The very same tribal leaders also make up parts of the government. Surely the government will turn into nothing else than a US Army-administration when the tribal leaders are rejected from further participating in the government?

[FSPilot 0]

Since when was this war about liberating Iraq?

This is about getting rid of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. He'll probably be forced out of office because he's a dictator and a criminal.

Saddam caused the Iraqi people to be poor and starving when he invaded Kuwait. And did anyone else realize that Saddam has a number of palaces while his country is starving?

And of course the Iraqi people are going to side with Saddam. You know they think they won the gulf war right? These people haven't been told the truth about this, they don't have the resources to make a good opinion on the subject.

[DarkLight 0]

Some of you people believe stuff that are not true at all.

The people from Iraq do not want a war, they don't want to get "liberated".  The only thing they really want is less poor people.  A lot of ppl seem to think that iraq will be soooo happy after the US has attacked it.  Well that's wrong, believe it or not, they don't want soldiers to invade their country.  Attacking them would only make stuff worse.  Sad enough some very important people and a lot of normal people refuse to believe this because it might prevent an attack.

Also a lot of normal civilians do not want to believe this because they want an attack or because they are influenced by the media.

DarkLight

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 03 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And did anyone else realize that Saddam has a number of palaces while his country is starving?<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly the same in the US, president Bush has a huuuuge mansion.  Less than 1 km away from his li'lle house there are people who live in places that look more like a box.  These people don't have the ability to eat every day, and yes, they are normal people.  Normal american citizens just like some of the people on this forum.

Your president cares more about his war and his militairy stuff than he cares about the economics. Don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing the US, and i'm not trying to start a discussion. I just think it's good to show that some of these problems you ppl talk about also happen exactly where you live...

[BaronVonRed 0]

Screw Saddam. He's an idiot, and he's a menace to his own country as well as the rest of the world. Shoot him, bomb him, nuke him, but just KILL him! He and his "soldiers" rape and torture anyone whom they please. He is a complete waste of oxygen and he, and all his children should be terminated before they breed again.

Sure the U.S. gets a lot of flack, but you have to expect that when you are the most powerful nation on the planet. It's so easy to forget the victims of his little vacation in Kuwait. Sick and tired of a bunch a whining faggots who have pity on this slob.

The U.S. this, and the U.S. that - whatever, like we care if you think we're not right; at least we got the nuts to back up our words with actions.

Ooooh, look at me, I'm being such a typical macho male - why don't you Saddam supporters try being men for a change....

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 03 2002,14:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Screw Saddam. He's an idiot, and he's a menace to his own country as well as the rest of the world. Shoot him, bomb him, nuke him, but just KILL him! He and his "soldiers" rape and torture anyone whom they please. He is a complete waste of oxygen and he, and all his children should be terminated before they breed again.

Sure the U.S. gets a lot of flack, but you have to expect that when you are the most powerful nation on the planet. It's so easy to forget the victims of his little vacation in Kuwait. Sick and tired of a bunch a whining faggots who have pity on this slob.

The U.S. this, and the U.S. that - whatever, like we care if you think we're not right; at least we got the nuts to back up our words with actions.

Ooooh, look at me, I'm being such a typical macho male - why don't you Saddam supporters try being men for a change....<span id='postcolor'>

How old are you? 10?

Sheesh, half of what you say is totally unrealistic and all the rest is not true.

The way you act is pretty childish, perhaps you don't really understand what so many ppl have been discussing on this forum.

[BaronVonRed 0]

How old are you? 10?

>>> I got yer 10 right here.

Sheesh, half of what you say is totally unrealistic and all the rest is not true.

>>> Huh? Which half is unrealistic? "All the rest"? Would that be lower half, or the upper half?

The way you act is pretty childish,

>>> Oh, that's a great defense.

perhaps you don't really understand what so many ppl have been discussing on this forum.

>>> Seeing as how three of the last four posts were yours, perhaps you like talking to yourself.

I'm sorry you can't be an American, but don't take your frustrations out on me.

[Balschoiw 0]

Baron no word of your posts is related to the topic issue.

Better read first before you bash people that are able to write their opinions in a mannered and good way.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we got the nuts to back up our words with actions.

<span id='postcolor'>

Neanderthals had nuts also, but I guess that didnt help them surviving. Brains are prefered for nowadays life.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Since when was this war about liberating Iraq?

This is about getting rid of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. He'll probably be forced out of office because he's a dictator and a criminal.<span id='postcolor'>

After Bush missed evidence of WMD he switched and turned it into a "liberate Irak" campaign. As the reports from UN inspectors show, there is no proof for WMD´s right now. I hope this will not change. Bush will run out of reasons for a war then.

[BaronVonRed 0]

"Baron no word of your posts is related to the topic issue."

Perhaps you only see what you want to see. From what you, the all great moderator, are saying, these are not related to what I posted:

"He is one of those hawks who want to remake the whole Middle East in America's image. They have been labelled democratic imperialists. "

That was taken from the initial post in this thread.

"Let the Iraqui people decide. You claim to free them so let them decide. Freedom is defined that way. It would be no freedom for Iraki´s if they are dictated into another government. BTW Iraki people don´t seem to share the the US opinions on freeing them. They are more afraid of getting killed during liberation. Strange eh ?"

That was quoted from one of your own replies. I responded to this directly by saying I felt Saddam was abusing his own and should be punished for it.

"I think you are right, however I cannot help myself from speculating: What IF there never was any sanctions and oil-embargo? Could that have meant most Iraqi's would be sympathetic to being "freed" by US and their allies? After all, Saddams regime is nothing else than a brutal dictatorship?"

That was from brgnorway. My post was basically saying to screw all the debates and criticisims and bomb the jerk.

Blah, blah, blah. Why don't you stop playing forum cop and start reading with both eyes open?

"Neanderthals had nuts also, but I guess that didnt help them surviving. Brains are prefered for nowadays life."

Newflash, brainiac: Neanderthals evolved into what is now modern man.

My initial opinion remains: Saddam is an idiot and should be removed from authority by whatever means necessary. Um, golly, Bals, was that okay?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 04 2002,14:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps you only see what you want to see. From what you, the all great moderator, are saying, these are not related to what I posted:<span id='postcolor'>

He is not a moderator, but I am and if you can't engage in a discussion in a civilised manner, then either stay away or risk a holiday from the forums.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That was from brgnorway. My post was basically saying to screw all the debates and criticisims and bomb the jerk.<span id='postcolor'>

Remarks like this are out of order. Again, discuss it in a civilised manner or don't discuss at all.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Blah, blah, blah. Why don't you stop playing forum cop and start reading with both eyes open?<span id='postcolor'>

Furthermore, personal attacks against other members are not tolerated. I suggest you drop your attitude.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Newflash, brainiac: Neanderthals evolved into what is now modern man.

<span id='postcolor'>

Neanderthals have been extinct for at least 20,000 years, if not more. Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals are two entirely different species.

[PitViper 0]

A vast majority of Iraqis who fled Iraq to the U.S fully support the government's desire to topple Saddam. They know exactly what Saddam has done to their country.  I'm not surprised to find Balshoiw blocking for a dictator. BTW, medicine and health related items are exempted from the sanctions.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Dec. 04 2002,06:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The people from Iraq do not want a war, they don't want to get "liberated".  The only thing they really want is less poor people.<span id='postcolor'>

unbelievable. *shakes head*

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Is bombing an entire country out of a personal vendetta justified I think not.

This reminds me of FMJ. After takign that town, one of them is like "...I guess they would rather live than be free. Poor dumb bastards..."

This is the issue at hand. It seems to me as if a lot of Americans would love to die for a word or two, whereas mostly others would rather live in some sort of oppression, rather than dying when getting liberated.

The thing is, while I wouldn't mind risking my own life to defend my country from a dictator/foreign force/whatever, I would only do that because it is my personal choice. If you have a family with kids to support, you don't have that choice. Once you have family, you have to support and protect them, which means being against war, as war will most likely endanger your family. That's the difference.

We have no right to judge them about their choice. They made their choice, we have to respect that. If they think that getting rid of Saddam is not worth bombing the country into pieces (again), then we should respect that. After all, this is all about liberating Iraq, isn't it

[Balschoiw 0]

I am not blocking a dictator. Where ?

I only repeated the things people actually told when they were asked. Refugees from Irak in the US are really rare, but I know several Iraki people that want to go into power when Saddam is removewd live in the States. It´s just what it is:

Let the Iraki people decide which government they want after the war. I did say nothing but that.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Dec. 04 2002,08:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have no right to judge them about their choice. They made their choice, we have to respect that.<span id='postcolor'>

Are you suggesting they faithfully chose Saddam to be their dictator?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 04 2002,08:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It´s just what it is:

Let the Iraki people decide which government they want after the war. I did say nothing but that.<span id='postcolor'>

ok then. However you do agree that the current dictatorship is unrepresentative of the wishes of the Iraqi people. correct?