theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 I'm reading the nonsense above about religious terms used by George Bush and I'm just laughing at you two. "G-d bless America"? Amen. I'll say it too! And Bush may be a religious man. Why not say it? Guess what? I don't think he's the one that coined the term. "Crusade"? OK, ya got me. We Jewish Jerusalemites are touchy about that era. But, as an American non-Christian, I don't take it in the context of a religious or holy war, declared by some sectarian group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Die Alive 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 02 2003,10:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 01 2003,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ April 02 2003,09:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not to forget that GW is on a holy crusade (following his words).<span id='postcolor'> LOL! Â Bush says "God Bless America" and you think he's on a crusade. Â <span id='postcolor'> No, its his actual words. After 11/9 in one of his speeches he talked about a "crusade on terrorism".<span id='postcolor'> Yep saw that too, we freaked out when we heard hem say that, pretty much everyone of my family was screaming that Bush had gone waaaay too far.<span id='postcolor'> I think he only said it once, on the lawn of the white house, when he was answering a reporter or something. But he said some other word before crusade, something like war or something. And it wasn't holy. -=Die Alive=- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Othin 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 02 2003,08:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yep saw that too, we freaked out when we heard hem say that, pretty much everyone of my family was screaming that Bush had gone waaaay too far.<span id='postcolor'> I think you can chalk that down to Americans changing the meaning of words. I've heard of crusades on hunger, crusades on cleaning up lake XX, crusades on stopping crime. The majority of Americans place no religious connotations on that word. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 What about the State of the Union speech where he said that the American people were chosen by god to deal with the evil in the world? I don't know, perhaps such rethorics works in USA, but it resonates very badly in Europe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,194)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What about the State of the Union speech where he said that the American people were chosen by god to deal with the evil in the world? I don't know, perhaps such rethorics works in USA, but it resonates very badly in Europe.<span id='postcolor'> As one who believes in G-d, more specifically in Judaism's understanding of G-d, to me, the events in the world are never by chance - from big to small. With that philosophy in mind, I can understand where Bush is coming from. That doesn't mean I agree but it by far doesn't frighten me. If he starts talking about prophesizing and receiving visions in the Oval Office, then............ Â Â Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balschoiw 0 Posted April 2, 2003 ...and in the vatican also. He makes no secret of his twisted religiouse views. Ever heard of the the meetings in the White House where they assemble to pray daily ? You haven´t ? You also may find it interesting that members of the inner circle are expected to take part in that meetings. If not they fall in ingrace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,18:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As one who believes in G-d, more specifically in Judaism's understanding of G-d, to me, the events in the world are never by chance - from big to small.<span id='postcolor'> Going OT a bit: Interesting. I only thought that you weren't supposed to spell the whole word in Hebrew only. And that the usage of "Jahve" was an acceptable replacement for the real word. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With that philosophy in mind, I can understand where Bush is coming from. That doesn't mean I agree but it by far doesn't frighten me.<span id='postcolor'> It didn't frighten me until he started making his ideology a reality. It was just funny until he actually started dropping bombs. It's also that being the secular hethan that I am, I don't have much trust in a born-again christian neoconservative politician. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whisperFFW06 0 Posted April 2, 2003 Well... That's just the words used in some statements... </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If war is forced upon us, we will fight in a just cause and by just means <span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity.<span id='postcolor'>(By that, does he mean that America is God's arm and sword?) That can show him as a terrible bigot Some kind of a Paladin, for those who take the words a bit too strong. Well, this kind of sentence often make Europeans laugh. Whis' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PitViper 0 Posted April 2, 2003 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....on_iraq Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ April 02 2003,19:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If not they fall in ingrace.<span id='postcolor'> You mean they genuflect? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallenPaladin 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (whisperFFW06 @ April 02 2003,18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some kind of a Paladin, for those who take the words a bit too strong.<span id='postcolor'> <- There can be only one! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaegis 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ April 02 2003,17:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, I guess we'll ignore the whole missile gyros incident, and Russian training (in Russia no less) of Iraqi SAM crews after the last Gulf war.  Even when we present you with the physical evidence of the Kornets and Aviaconversia GPS/Glonus jammers I'm sure you'll have an excuse. "Put up or shut up"  Way to intelligently debate something  <span id='postcolor'> You're obfuscating. Listen, when Ari Fleischer shows up on the telly and claims that event "X" took place, that does not constitute proof that the said event actually DID take place. It constitutes an attempt by the American government to affect the domestic and world opinion in a particular fashion. With the allegations floating around, it should be VERY easy to provide physical proof (even then it's far from clear cut, as for example Syria has Kornets and could have sold/provided them to Iraq). So when the said physical proof is presented, I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong and you were right and that yes, Russia was involved in the Iraq conflict. That said, let me make something very clear. Personally, I think Russia has as much right to protect its economic and political interests in Iraq as does the US. The US taking control of Iraq will have adverse consequences for Russia. So IMO, hell yes, they should take steps to help Iraq defend itself. "Way to intelligently debate something"? Don't patronize me. I used that Americanism as an attempt at humor. If it's too much for you, I'll change it to: "provide proof, or stop your baseless accusations. Please." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,19:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I only thought that you weren't supposed to spell the whole word in Hebrew only.<span id='postcolor'> There are different opinions regarding named in other languages. I for sure do it out of lifetime habit. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> And that the usage of "Jahve" was an acceptable replacement for the real word.<span id='postcolor'> That's a much worse problem. It is an attemot to pronounce G-d's name as spelled in Hebrew but never pronounced that way. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It didn't frighten me until he started making his ideology a reality. It was just funny until he actually started dropping bombs.<span id='postcolor'> When he starts naming saints after fallen soldiers, get back to me. This is a general question of whether this war is about terrorism and WMDs or not. This pouncing on everything religious is just another angle of Bush-bashing from what you're all saying. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's also that being the secular hethan that I am, I don't have much trust in a born-again christian ceoconservative politician.<span id='postcolor'> Well, from where I come from, I'm not crazy for either one of you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This pouncing on everything religious is just another angle of Bush-bashing from what you're all saying.<span id='postcolor'> Yes, general scepticism towards the intelligence and character of the "leader of the free world" (lol lol) or Bush-bashing, if you wish. Most Europeans consider Bush being a nutcase and adding a religious flair to it does certainly not help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 02 2003,18:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Listen, when Ari Fleischer shows up on the telly and claims that event "X" took place, that does not constitute proof that the said event actually DID take place. It constitutes an attempt by the American government to affect the domestic and world opinion in a particular fashion. With the allegations floating around, it should be VERY easy to provide physical proof (even then it's far from clear cut, as for example Syria has Kornets and could have sold/provided them to Iraq).<span id='postcolor'> Well said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,19:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Europeans consider Bush being a nutcase and adding a religious flair to it does certainly not help.<span id='postcolor'> It's called deligitimization. A very crude and primative type, too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PitViper 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 02 2003,11:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You know, believe it or not, but he is making it look like a holy war.<span id='postcolor'> not to those that realize that it is simply his own personal morality. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why does he always say ""god" bless america"?<span id='postcolor'> because he believes in God? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope he does realize that a huge amount of people don't like it when he says that, not only because "god" probable wouldn't bless such actions. (although i don't think "god" exists but let's not bullshit about that here) But also because it gives the impression that it's our "god" fighting against other gods.<span id='postcolor'> Most people in the U.S realize that it is his personal beliefs and has nothing to do with the liberation of Iraq (except to the nutty conspiracy theorists). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most people in the U.S realize that it is his personal beliefs and has nothing to do with the liberation of Iraq (except to the nutty conspiracy theorists).<span id='postcolor'> Amen - er - I mean - oh, yes, I agree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,19:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Europeans consider Bush being a nutcase and adding a religious flair to it does certainly not help.<span id='postcolor'> It's called deligitimization. A very crude and primative type, too.<span id='postcolor'> Consider a hypothetical situation: You are going to the doctor for major surgery. When you meet the doctor he is naked, wears blue lipstick and carries a rather large wooden club. Would you say "Hey, who cares. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with his medical skills." ...or would  you request another doctor? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,19:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 02 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,19:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Europeans consider Bush being a nutcase and adding a religious flair to it does certainly not help.<span id='postcolor'> It's called deligitimization. A very crude and primative type, too.<span id='postcolor'> Consider a hypothetical situation: You are going to the doctor for major surgery. When you meet the doctor he is naked, wears blue lipstick and carries a rather large wooden club. Would you say "Hey, who cares. I'm sure there is nothing wrong with his medical skills." ...or would  you request another doctor?<span id='postcolor'> Well, it depends. If he's French, I wouldn't be surprised. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,18:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not to those that realize that it is simply his own personal morality.<span id='postcolor'> It's possible I suppose but that makes him a bad politician. He should not mix his personal faith with his official role as your president. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hellfish6 7 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,12:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,18:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not to those that realize that it is simply his own personal morality.<span id='postcolor'> It's possible I suppose but that makes him a bad politician. He should not mix his personal faith with his official role as your president.<span id='postcolor'> Every American president has done that. The only difference is that Shrub actually thinks that God is on his side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PitViper 0 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,13:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,18:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not to those that realize that it is simply his own personal morality.<span id='postcolor'> It's possible I suppose but that makes him a bad politician. He should not mix his personal faith with his official role as your president.<span id='postcolor'> Are you saying that one should censor their personal beliefs? Bush realizes that he won't really lose alot of support because most Americans either believe in God or feel that one should be able to express ones views freely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,19:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that one should censor their personal beliefs? Â <span id='postcolor'> In a country that was outraged by Clinton's personal life, yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 2, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 02 2003,20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 02 2003,198)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that one should censor their personal beliefs? Â <span id='postcolor'> In a country that was outraged by Clinton's personal life, yes.<span id='postcolor'> A personal life that involved lying through his teeth and being disloyal and disdainful to his wife while in office. European morals, perhaps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
