Longinius 1 Posted March 20, 2003 "Let's just keep the thought of the U.S., British, and Anzac troops in our hearts, and let's also remember that we need to stay vigilant, wherever we are." While keeping thoughts, we might do the same for the civilians of Iraq and the drafted soldiers who hopefully will surrender. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted March 20, 2003 "Denoir-It leaves only two options. US intelligence is either 1) Grossly incompetent 2) Grossly incompetent and malicious" ....Or alternatively that they are being directed and pressured to fulfill Whitehouse initiatives to justify a rather unpopular war often against their better judgements (this is what i find more credible) Denoir-"Was that from that grad student report? I'm sorry but British intel is not high on my credible source list right now." Similarly it was not British intelligence but Alistair Campbells office that put that report together apparently using Intelligence information 'augmented' with more questionable sources. Alistair Campbell is notorious for being a 'spin doctor' (propaganda guy) for the Labour party. The report itself was not compiled by British intelligence forces. I would trust government information MORE at the moment if it was coming from intelligence sources rather the Public Relations departments of governments. I have seen reports that the intelligence forces are unhappy about whats going on at the moment (being turned somewhat into PR tools of their governments) "Denoir-More US servicemen died in Kosovo then in GW1 but that never came out. When it did, nobody cared." I find this a highly interesting assertion coming from someone who went into kosovo. However i have not yet been able to find any supporting evidence for this claim on the internet. All western (and even anti-NATO) sources i have seen state that no NATO people died in the bombing campaign as has been widely(almost universally) reported. The campaign was famous for having no NATO air casualties (apart from accidents) . Are you perhaps referring ro the subsequent ground operations (of which you have detailed your involvement in) with reported explosions killing mine clearance people and other such incidents etc? Or are you really claiming that over 100 NATO pilots were killed? (148 KIA gulf war with over 200- non combat depending on how you count) I simply dont think the media would be uninterested in this. Wouldnt some journalist want to get a picture of a downed aircraft with a dead pilot inside who is still officially alive? Please if possible provide some more information such as the name of the report, when it was released (roughly) etc thank you. "Turkey has decided to send troops in to the by Kurds controlled norther Iraq according to the Turkish vice PM Mehmet Ali Sahin who describes the action as "a humanitarian mission"." Â I sincerely hope nothing bad comes of this but it is definatly very bad news inviting Kurd/Turkish fighting possibly pulling in Iran. One more reason to oppose the conditions in which this war is being fought(and by extension the war itself). It is not clear in news reports how far Turkey is planning to penetrate into Iraqi territory.... (I can only find reports that as well as support for US aircraft using Turkish airspace the parliamentary vote envisages Turkish troops in northern Turkey) But seeing as realistically this war will not now miraculously stop, i will be hoping for a quick and painless victory (and i dont mean for Saddam) as this is means of ensuring minimum suffering(for now). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewcutkid 0 Posted March 20, 2003 I hear that, brotha! -Crew Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaegis 0 Posted March 20, 2003 Pentagon briefing coming up. Maybe they'll finally say something substantive... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MP Studio 0 Posted March 20, 2003 Do you really believe Pentagon tells you the truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaegis 0 Posted March 20, 2003 2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MP Studio @ Mar. 20 2003,172)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you really believe Pentagon tells you the truth  <span id='postcolor'> Well, no...  But they migh show cruise-missile nose camera videos for entertainment... Oh, no: it's begun and it's Rummy's sour face again  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winters 1 Posted March 20, 2003 I am afraid we will never know the truth about the alleged WMD (unless of course he uses them) as the only ones who could have proved it with near 100% credibilty were the UN Inspectors. Anything thats found now will always be open to debate on it's validity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 20 2003,16:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Denoir-More US servicemen died in Kosovo then in GW1 but that never came out. When it did, nobody cared." I find this a highly interesting assertion coming from someone who went into kosovo. However i have not yet been able to find any supporting evidence for this claim on the internet. Please if possible provide some more information such as the name of the report, when it was released (roughly) etc thank you.<span id='postcolor'> The two reports that are outlining this issue are: KSIE-401-07 "Post conflict evaluation of "Operation Allied Force" and "Operation Joint Guardian" " - Wg Cdr John Anderson et Al, KFOR HQ, Office of COMKFOR, Staff company, Pristina, 2000 KSIE-528-27/A and follow up KSIE-528-27/B "Estimate of Yugoslav military capabilities before and after "Operation Allied Force" - OTL Frank Hoffman et al, KFOR HQ, Office of COMKFOR, Staff company, Pristina, 2001 I was involved in writing the second report. Both are now unclassified and can be ordered from the KFOR Press office. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or are you really claiming that over 100 NATO pilots were killed? (148 KIA gulf war with over 200- non combat depending on how you count) <span id='postcolor'> Far over 100 casualties, most prominently two blackhawks and a chinhook that were downed by Yugoslav AA/AAA. Most fighter pilots that were shot down survived, </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The campaign was famous for having no NATO air casualties (apart from accidents) . <span id='postcolor'> On the contrary, the campaign was famous for not providing effective AA suppression resulting in large number of downed aircraft. Most responsible for this were the Hawk batteries that they never managed to locate. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I simply dont think the media would be uninterested in this. Wouldnt some journalist want to get a picture of a downed aircraft with a dead pilot inside who is still officially alive?<span id='postcolor'> They never claimed any specific individuals were alive that were actually killed. And the Serbs have documented very carefully their kills. It's all on record. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All western (and even anti-NATO) sources i have seen state that no NATO people died in the bombing campaign as has been widely(almost universally) reported. <span id='postcolor'> Not even NATO ever claimed that. The official death toll is something like 20 US servicemen and about as many British. This should not be hard to verify on the net as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pukko 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 20 2003,16:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am still confused that one man gets what he wants while the whole world protests against it. It's a crazy world we live in...<span id='postcolor'> And the "scapegoat of the rest of the world" - France - is the EVIL  Only 2 nations in the world has a majority that is pro war, USA and Israel... I'm trying hard to not 'masturbate too much about the details' in this war (it is indeed hard to avoid the entertaining aspect of a 'live' war - but I sadly remember when I was 16 yrs old during GW1 and was really entertained... ). But rather trying to dicern the bigger perspective of this 'pax americana' era. Really depressing it is indeed Look at this site (and especially read the 2:nd document on the Publications/reports page "Rebuilding America's Defenses" ) while waiting for more tasty reports: http://www.newamericancentury.org I would appreciate if we could have 2 threads about Iraq now: One with entertaining war details - like this thread is turning in to now. And another, maybe "The pax americana thread" (observe its not an offensive name - but used by the republicans themselves) - where we could discuss surrounding international developments. What do you say about it moderators? Its really pointless to visit this thread if one do not only want to discuss/read details about the very present war. Any longer, not directly action focused, posts will be pointless here now... Maybe change this thread´s title to 'pax americana', and allow a new 'action tread' ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WhoCares 0 Posted March 20, 2003 This is a funny one: Oilfields near Basra Kuwait says, Iraq set them on fire, Iran says that US-Jets attacked them and Iraq says that everything is fine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DracoPaladore 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 20 2003,14:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Mar. 20 2003,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think I saw eariler today on the television that one of the US missles hit a Iraqi Customs Office<span id='postcolor'> That's what the Iraqi's said.<span id='postcolor'> Why should I beleive the US? So I guess every casualty is going to be a lie? Everything that the world says is lie and the United States os truth? They didn't say what the other cruise missles hit. But I don't think it was suppose to be a Customs office. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsthatyouJohnWayne 0 Posted March 20, 2003 From the BBC there are reports of large scale troop movements and artillery pieces on both sides firing and jets engaging ground targets near the border There are also reports from the BBC of burning oil wells in the south which Donald Rumsfeld also says he has heard about... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 20, 2003 Some interesting developments (taken from MSNBC) [*]MSNBC says "sources" indicate that Saddam might have been injured or killed in the attacks this morning. [*] A senior U.S official has dismissed the Kuwaiti claims that the missiles launched at US positions were Scuds and are saying that were Al Samoud I missiles. [*] Turkey has passed a vote in parliement allowing the US to use it's airspace. The proposal of sending in Turkish troops into northern Iraq was also approved. [*] Basra oil wells are reportedly on fire. Witness' see flames near Basra. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blaegis 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 20 2003,17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[*] Basra oil wells are reportedly on fire. Witness' see flames near Basra.<span id='postcolor'> Near Real Time Satellite Images of Iraq Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Mar. 20 2003,18:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 20 2003,14:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Mar. 20 2003,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think I saw eariler today on the television that one of the US missles hit a Iraqi Customs Office<span id='postcolor'> That's what the Iraqi's said.<span id='postcolor'> Why should I beleive the US?<span id='postcolor'> You can believe in whatever you want to. That wasn't the main point of my response, which was there are 39 other cruise missile hits to account for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Die Alive 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Frontline Party as War Breaks Out By Michael Georgy KUWAIT/IRAQ BORDER (Reuters) - A group of wealthy Kuwaitis celebrated what they hope will be Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's downfall by partying through the night at a farm on the Iraqi border. Over jam sandwiches and warm camel milk, they began a nightlong vigil from their luxury frontline lookout as the countdown to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq ticked closer. <span id='postcolor'> Those crazy Kuwaitis know when to party! Party on Mutlaaq! -=Die Alive=- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Mar. 20 2003,17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am still confused that one man gets what he wants while the whole world protests against it.<span id='postcolor'> You mean Saddam, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FSPilot 0 Posted March 20, 2003 everyone in the world must be looking at that webpage with the satellite photos, its taking forever to load. this calls for a special soundtrack *bombs over baghdad remix* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted March 20, 2003 There is a documentary right now on Danish television about Iraq. It is quite interesting. It explains why Iraqi people hate the US so much, and why many of them will fight the US in a war. To sum it up... 1. They hate the US for putting Saddam into power, and for supporting his tyrannic rule for several years. 2. They hate the US for not getting rid of Saddam after GW1. 3. They hate the US for promising to support their uprising in the last war, then leaving them to fend for themselves against attack helicopters and chemical weapons. 4. They hate the US for the family members they lost in the last war. And of course, they hate Saddam for the oppression, torture and wars he has caused. They aren't exactly in an easy position. Kind of between a rock and a hard place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,17:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this calls for a special soundtrack *bombs over baghdad remix* <span id='postcolor'> That's disgusting FS - making jokes about that when innocent people may die at this very moment. Would you appreciate if people on this forum had a laugh when the first US serviceman dies? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted March 20, 2003 "That's disgusting FS - making jokes about that when innocent people may die at this very moment. Would you appreciate if people on this forum had a laugh when the first US serviceman dies?" No, but he'd be extremely pissed if we made jokes about "The house comes crumbling down", "Burning down the house" or "Bombs over WTC". And no, its no dubble standard at all. Its the American way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 20 2003,19:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is a documentary right now on Danish television about Iraq. It is quite interesting. It explains why Iraqi people hate the US so much, and why many of them will fight the US in a war.<span id='postcolor'> Who are they interviewing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted March 20, 2003 "Who are they interviewing?" Various people. One nuclear scientist who had been jailed for ten years and then escaped, a couple of women, some people belonging to a religous group / sect that Saddam had outlawed, some people of the street (in company with an Iraqi minder. They of course expressed no hatred towards Saddam since they would probably get shot for it), a couple of men that took part in the revolt during GW1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FSPilot 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 20 2003,23:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"That's disgusting FS - making jokes about that when innocent people may die at this very moment. Would you appreciate if people on this forum had a laugh when the first US serviceman dies?" No, but he'd be extremely pissed if we made jokes about "The house comes crumbling down", "Burning down the house" or "Bombs over WTC". And no, its no dubble standard at all. Its the American way.<span id='postcolor'> I wasn't making a joke. Just listening to bombs over baghdad because we're bombing baghdad. Someone's a bit touchy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 20, 2003 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 20 2003,18:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 20 2003,238)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"That's disgusting FS - making jokes about that when innocent people may die at this very moment. Would you appreciate if people on this forum had a laugh when the first US serviceman dies?" No, but he'd be extremely pissed if we made jokes about "The house comes crumbling down", "Burning down the house" or "Bombs over WTC". And no, its no dubble standard at all. Its the American way.<span id='postcolor'> I wasn't making a joke. Â Just listening to bombs over baghdad because we're bombing baghdad. Â Someone's a bit touchy. <span id='postcolor'> Then you should articulate yourself differently because it sounded very much like a joke to me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
