The Iraq Thread

[Blake 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 23 2003,14:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Basically yes, but there are several options for the EU to react:

- denial of airspace use for military jets and transports to the region over EU countries

- denial of local airfield useage in EU countries

- import taxes on US goods risen (US did this sometimes to EU goods)

- no military support to guard US installations in EU countries.

- UN intervention on the breach of inernational law.

- no AWACS from NATO for US.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm pretty sure EU still does not have the balls to do what you stated above. Perhaps unfortunate but more likely. Ties are simply too deep despite ailing US policies in world affairs.

EU will not go to serious crisis with US over Iraq they will state their dismay but it will not go to anything very concrete.

Cynically saying, Iraq is not worth that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They actually had business there, but the main factors have changed untill then. Right now US uses their bases in germany as a jumppoint to the ME and for supply ways. Germany has rights and these rights include to voice their opinions on the useage of their soil. Therefore US has to listen if they want to keep the bases open for some more time. If you follow Rumsfeld´s statememnt you could get the impression , that US bases in germany are for controlling us. Just a funny idea.<span id='postcolor'>

But there have been virtually no demonstrations against US military presence on German soil like there has been in South Korea and Japan. I don't believe US GI's behave any differently there than in elswhere (not saying US soldiers are any better or worse than in other armies). Quiet acceptance to the fact that US forces are there to stay?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Political pressure on Saddam is great, but a war on his soil will be no good for a longterm political and attitude change in the country. I mean it is not only Saddam. It is the whole Bath party that currently rules Iraq. You can´t execute them all to invent a new democracy. By the way all neighbout countries except Israel have no democracy. They fear:

- a democracy in Iraq wont work (civil wars)

- a change in their own countries that would be accomponied with loss of power

- a heatsource within ME that could be the source for mayn problems that are not so easy to control as they are right now.

This is an external source:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saudi Arabia, and the other Arab states, don't want the US throwing Saddam out and establishing a democratic government in Iraq. If this succeeded, it would encourage Arabs throughout the region to call for democracy. The only functioning democracy in the region is Israel. Egypt's democracy is a one party affair tightly controlled by a "president for life" and stifling bureaucracy. Iran's democracy is controlled by a religious council that has veto power over everything.  

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Future is uncertain  - war might be a disaster or if we are lucky (decreased likelyhood) Iraq could have genuine working democracy after the war. Saddam's control is based mainly on fear and if he goes down, so does his Bath party - it is so much centered around him and his personal worshipping cult.

Iraqi people see him as their hero because in their eyes he is the man who defied west, but if his army collapses and he is killed or overthrown the cult built around him might just collapse as people will very soon come to grips with reality and facts. That has happened so many times in history and it could happen again. But this all is of course just speculation like predictions of carnage and chaos on the other hand. In the event of war, it all depends how willing the Iraqis are to fight. It all might just be a hollow shell or there could be fantatic resistance to the end. Civil war is one thing which could happen after the war but it depends how well the invaders are able to contain the situation and how much independence are Iraq's minorities going to want.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saudi Arabia, and the other Arab states, don't want the US throwing Saddam out and establishing a democratic government in Iraq. If this succeeded, it would encourage Arabs throughout the region to call for democracy. The only functioning democracy in the region is Israel. Egypt's democracy is a one party affair tightly controlled by a "president for life" and stifling bureaucracy. Iran's democracy is controlled by a religious council that has veto power over everything.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Some might think more democracy could be worth the initial hassle? But democracy will not prevail because fundamentalist parties could get as much support as they did in Algeria. So they are contained now - maybe not in Saudi-Arabia.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some might think more democracy could be worth the initial hassle?

<span id='postcolor'>

Iran will do. They already have there machine running in case Saddam is removed. There are two options for them that are planned at the moment:

- Iran will take over Iraq after Saddam´s removal with the religiouse thing.

- Iran will take over Iraq by using military measures.

Both things are planned and both things are currently prepared. Iran claims the current troop concentrations at the turkmenistan and Iraq border are for self protecting reasons in case of a war on Iraq, but the unit types don´t fit these plans. There are almost only attack forces and the number of defensive forces is 1 of 6 to attack forces.

This is a thing that falls under "What is expected after a war in Iraq". It gives them the opportunity to annex Iraq with little military forces. And who will be the one to tell them they are not allowed to ? If the US war will be an unmandated strike they will claim the same reasons, do the same and march in.

This is in fact another bad side effect of a unjustified preemtive strike. You set up an example that can be easily adapted by any nation on this world.

[Badgerboy 0]

How many languages do you speak Denoir? Your English is superb (Better than most English speakers on this forum! ), but apart from Swedish (Obviously), how many more are you capable of?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Jan. 23 2003,21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many languages do you speak Denoir? Your English is superb (Better than most English speakers on this forum! ), but apart from Swedish (Obviously), how many more are you capable of?<span id='postcolor'>

Thanks

Besides from Swedish (and Norwegian and Danish, that are very similar to Swedish).

English, German, French, Serbo-Croatian and Russian. My Russian and French are terrible

[Badgerboy 0]

Impressive.

My French is pretty poor, but I don't have problems reading it. As for my German, I only spoke it when living in Germany, and then not very much.

Do you have a fondness for languages, or are Swedish schools that way orientated? (Apart from your Serbo-Croatian, which I assume you picked up when deployed there)

...and then back on topic!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Jan. 23 2003,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you have a fondness for languages, or are Swedish schools that way orientated? (Apart from your Serbo-Croatian, which I assume you picked up when deployed there)<span id='postcolor'>

I learned (apart from English) German (six years) and French (three years) in school. I was taught Russian when I did my military service.

I knew I was going to Kosovo a year in advance so I used that time to familiarize myself with the language and developed it further on-site. It's actually not Serbo-Croatian that I speak but Croatian. There are some differences in the languages but besides a somewhat different vocabulary the grammatic differences are consistent. I can without too much trouble speak Serbian instead.

It's quite amazing how quickly you pick up a language when you are forced to used it. I learned the language during my six months in Kosovo far better then I ever learned German - which I studied for six years

[Guest]

Russia sceptical to war on iraq

That makes three out of five security council members (France, China, Russia).

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 24 2003,03:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That makes three out of five security council members (France, China, Russia).<span id='postcolor'>

This is why I don't support a war on Iraq. I think it would result in more problems than it would solve. If we piss of France, China, and Russia, then we have to worry about French, Chinese, and Russian terrorists.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">English, German, French, Serbo-Croatian and Russian. My Russian and French are terrible <span id='postcolor'>

I've always wanted to learn Russian. At least since I bought operation flashpoint. I'd be taking classes right now but Dad says it's too difficult. I'll have to settle for night school after I graduate.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Discovered this today...

HERE

[Bernadotte 0]

No great surprise about Russia.  What's in it for China?

FSPilot:  If you spend about 30 minutes to learn how to pronounce the Russian alphabet, then you will be able to read stuff like the labels in the T-80 cockpit.  You may be surprised at how much you will understand.  By the way, linguists have claimed that reading Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange provides most people with a passive knowledge of ~200 Russian words.

"Real Horrorshow"

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 23 2003,21:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's quite amazing how quickly you pick up a language when you are forced to used it. I learned the language during my six months in Kosovo far better then I ever learned German - which I studied for six years <span id='postcolor'>

I agree, When I came to Canada in '93 I didn't know any English except from a few choice words I picked up from American action movies . Within 3-4 months of enrolling in school, I was able to understand it and speak it pretty well at a basic level. Most people now are surprized when they find out I wasn't born here. 6 years of studying French in school and I'm still at "Je n'parle pas Francais " (I can often read it ok but only because the grammar is very similar to Spanish).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've always wanted to learn Russian. At least since I bought operation flashpoint. I'd be taking classes right now but Dad says it's too difficult. I'll have to settle for night school after I graduate.

<span id='postcolor'>

My advice to you: stay away from language schools unless you are truly dedicated, especially with a language as gramatically complex as Russian. I've been speaking it since I can remember (though mostly with my mother and never educated in it) - and reading in it still gives me a headache. Like denoir said, the best way to learn is to be forced to use it. My recommendation to anyone who wants to learn Russian is take a vacation in Russia.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 23 2003,22:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My advice to you: stay away from language schools unless you are truly dedicated, especially with a language as gramatically complex as Russian.<span id='postcolor'>

The good part is that the slavic languages are similar. I can partially understand (read) Polish and Czech.

I've actually had some use of it in OFP in a moderators vs BIS multiplayer game. The BIS guys, especially Ondrej decided to coordinate themselves by reporting their positions in Czech, over the global channel. I picked up most of it and translated it to the mods over the private channel. It was quite amusing

I've been thinking about learning Arabic. I am seriously considering going to Iraq after the war (I'm pretty sure Sweden is going to have some form of military presence there then). Arabic would come in quite handy, I think.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 23 2003,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No great surprise about Russia.  What's in it for China?

FSPilot:  If you spend about 30 minutes to learn how to pronounce the Russian alphabet, then you will be able to read stuff like the labels in the T-80 cockpit.  You may be surprised at how much you will understand.  By the way, linguists have claimed that reading Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange provides most people with a passive knowledge of ~200 Russian words.

"Real Horrorshow" <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In recent weeks and months, Iraq reportedly has signed a flurry of deals with companies from Italy (Eni), Spain (Repsol YPF), Russia (Tatneft), France (TotalFinaElf), China, India, Turkey, and others. According to a report in The Economist, Iraq has signed over 30 deals with various oil companies, offering generous rates of return ("on the order of 20%") as part of its "Development and Production Contract" (DPC) model. Iraq introduced the DPC in 2000 to replace the previous "Production Sharing Contract" (PSC) arrangement.   

Source: US DOE Oct 2002 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

<span id='postcolor'>

[llauma 0]

All swedes say that they understand danish but I really doubt that they do. Maybe some texts but definitily not general talking.

I think danish have easier understanding swedish than the opposite.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 23 2003,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Jan. 23 2003,16:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No great surprise about Russia.  What's in it for China?

FSPilot:  If you spend about 30 minutes to learn how to pronounce the Russian alphabet, then you will be able to read stuff like the labels in the T-80 cockpit.  You may be surprised at how much you will understand.  By the way, linguists have claimed that reading Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange provides most people with a passive knowledge of ~200 Russian words.

"Real Horrorshow" <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In recent weeks and months, Iraq reportedly has signed a flurry of deals with companies from Italy (Eni), Spain (Repsol YPF), Russia (Tatneft), France (TotalFinaElf), China, India, Turkey, and others. According to a report in The Economist, Iraq has signed over 30 deals with various oil companies, offering generous rates of return ("on the order of 20%") as part of its "Development and Production Contract" (DPC) model. Iraq introduced the DPC in 2000 to replace the previous "Production Sharing Contract" (PSC) arrangement.   

Source: US DOE Oct 2002   http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Everybody has an agenda. At least theirs does not involve killing a lot of people.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All swedes say that they understand danish but I really doubt that they do. Maybe some texts but definitily not general talking.

I think danish have easier understanding swedish than the opposite. <span id='postcolor'>

I had a Danish girlfriend for almost four years so I needed to learn it better then I normally would have. When we had arguments she always spoke in Danish which kind of forced me to do the same

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 23 2003,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Everybody has an agenda. At least theirs does not involve killing a lot of people.<span id='postcolor'>

well, why is it so out of the question that the leaders of the anglo-saxon world are trying to forestall just that? the killing of thousands?

if we just fold up now and go home without removing saddam, mideast radicals of all stripes will feel they got their way: they'll figure the west is divided, decandent and weak.

then they'll do again what everybody here seems to be scared witless of: they'll go on killing thousands IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD. (osama: "take that mr rogers!")

they proved that they don't have any qualms about that.

your backing down won't change that. they don't understand your love of peace and your great moral superiority over W. they'll think you're weak and will despise you for it.

more planes in skyscrapers, more ricin-attacks?

do you want that?

[Frisbee 0]

Again,even as FS said,what does Saddam have to do with terrorism?

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Jan. 23 2003,18:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again,even as FS said,what does Saddam have to do with terrorism?<span id='postcolor'>

CNN Article

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Czech officials reported that Muhammad Atta, one of the September 11 ringleaders, met an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague months before the hijackings<span id='postcolor'>

*although this has been not confirmed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saddam has helped the Iranian dissident group Mujahedeen-e-Khalq and the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), a separatist group fighting the Turkish government. Moreover, Iraq has hosted several Palestinian splinter groups that oppose any peace agreement with Israel, including the mercenary Abu Nidal Organization, whose leader, Abu Nidal, was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002. Iraq has also supported other Palestinian groups, including the Islamist Hamas movement, and reportedly channels money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Some militants trained in Taliban-run Afghanistan are helping Ansar al-Islam, a Kurdish extremist group that Saddam uses to harass his own Kurdish foes. Finally, al-Qaeda members fleeing Afghanistan have reportedly hid in northern Iraq, but in areas beyond Saddam’s control. <span id='postcolor'>

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again,even as FS said,what does Saddam have to do with terrorism? <span id='postcolor'>

Not only that but it will also create more animosity and lead to more terrorist acts. One would think that after Afganistan you would have realized that large scale military operations doesn't catch terrorists. Where is your dear Osama? Still alive and kicking, laughing his ass off. An attack on Iraq will only spawn more hatred towards the US and more people will join the terrorists. An invasion of Iraq is only benifitial to extremists like bin Laden. It just proves his point that USA is the enemy.

The worst thing that could happen to bin Laden would be if Bush and Saddam found a peaceful solution without any humiliation of either side.

[FSPilot 0]

I'm not saying that Saddam isn't connected to terrorists, its just that nobody can prove it. Do you really think Saddam is going to get a high altitude bomber off the ground and close enough to America to drop a nuke? No, he'd probably hand it to some terrorist and tell them to do as they wish with it. If he hasn't already. Then again, I can't prove that.

[Guest]

5thSFG.CNUTZ:

AQ is an international terrorist organization. You will find elements of their organization in just about any country. If I am not mistaken the ones that slammed those planes into the WTC were living in the US.

[Tovarish 0]

Well, since we're going into the "Harbouring Terrorists" discussion, I should point this out: Cuban Exile Terrorism

[Guest]

You can say many things about Saddam, but that he is stupid is not one of them. After the WTC attacks you didn't have to be especially bright to realize that some serious shit was about to happen. With another Bush on the throne Iraq's position was already weak. There is no way in hell Saddam would have allowed any AQ connections in Iraq. That would be suicidal.

I wouldn't be surprised if Iraq has statistically less AQ elements then other countries in the world. I can imagine that the first order of business for Saddam after the WTC attacks was to kick out any possible terrorist suspects out of the country. Iraq would be such an obvious patsy.

I guess that's also why nobody has been able to point out any real terrorist connections with Iraq. Terrorist leaders have been found all over Europe and USA, but not Iraq.

[FSPilot 0]

Great, now we have to bomb Cuba.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 23 2003,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5thSFG.CNUTZ:

AQ is an international terrorist organization. You will find elements of their organization in just about any country. If I am not mistaken the ones that slammed those planes into the WTC were living in the US.<span id='postcolor'>

CNN-"Zarqawi, coalition intelligence sources said, left Afghanistan when the Taliban regime was toppled. From there, said the sources, he traveled through Iran to Baghdad, then to Kurdish-controlled areas of northern Iraq, where Ansar al-Islam, a group linked to al Qaeda, operates."

Terrorists are terrorists.  It doesn't matter if they are in 1 country or 100.  I believe the world recognized terrorist organizations before Al-Queda was formed.  I believe Hamas and Islamic Jihad are terrorists organizations recognized by allot of countries world wide.  Not all but most I would say.  I believe they also raise money in the US?  

* I am not intending to steer this thread to a Israel vs. Palestinian flame war.  Just trying to prove a point on terrorism.  I am done for today, cya...