The Iraq Thread

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You seem to miss the fact that no proof whatsoever has been presented. Saddam has not been linked in any way to terrorist organizations (even the US admits to that).<span id='postcolor'>

There is proof, but just because you don't see it on CNN or whatever your mainstream news source is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  President Bush showed the U.S. senate this proof and they all agreed that Saddam was a threat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now any rational person demands some form of explanation/proof before believeing something. That's why so many people (including many Americans) don't believe that Saddam is of any danger. Simple as that.<span id='postcolor'>

IMO, they don't think he is because they want to disagree with Bush.  But that's just me.  There is proof, and our elected officials agree that saddam is a threat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Think of how many Japanese lives you would have saved by coming to a diplomatic solutions. I have been taught in school that the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were one of the worst war crimes comitted during ww2. Hearing somebody defending it is to me like hearing somebody defending the extermination of Jews.   Anyway, this is offtopic, lets stick to the topic.<span id='postcolor'>

DIPLOMATIC SOLUTIONS!?!?  THEY ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR!!!   agh

you're right it's off topic. -_-

Do you have any proof that the U.S. intentionally took military action to cause a civilian casualty?  I doubt it.  The U.S. typically attacks civilian targets that are of use to the military at night when they're not staffed.

[Frisbee 0]

LOL

Okay,you say there's proof when the only ones who've seen it are a small group.

Now,supposing it exists,you can now prove to me that it exists.

If you don't let the media,and the average joe know,it isn't proof,period.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were civilian targets,they were cities,not military targets.

The US (back then) intentionally attacked civilians (yes,unbelievable isn't it ?! ), well not only attack,attacked and killed civilians.

The war could've ended without the need for a mainland invasion,or at least after DESTROYING ONE WHOLE CITY.

Jeez....

[Edit: Smiley because of bad punctuation removed]

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">DIPLOMATIC SOLUTIONS!?!?  THEY ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR!!! <span id='postcolor'>

..and your president knew of the attack BEFORE it did happen. He did kill the people at pearl harbour by not telling them about the upcoming airstrike. Isn´t it the first rule for a president to care avout his countries people ?

In fact he watched the killing to get a reason to join WW 2.

Yes no argument for you here. As you told me it is already written in your history books, so don´t use this as a lame excuse for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

EDIT: What makes me especially sad is the fact that german submarine on it´s way to Japan surrendered to US and not Canadian forces. They thought it would be better. Bad decision. The load the sub had was used to built the nukes that were dropped over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. By the way germany already had surrendered when the bombs were dropped. The boat was U 234 and as I know your demand for prove:

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/5_19living_a.htm

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,03:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You seem to miss the fact that no proof whatsoever has been presented. Saddam has not been linked in any way to terrorist organizations (even the US admits to that).<span id='postcolor'>

There is proof, but just because you don't see it on CNN or whatever your mainstream news source is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  President Bush showed the U.S. senate this proof and they all agreed that Saddam was a threat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now any rational person demands some form of explanation/proof before believeing something. That's why so many people (including many Americans) don't believe that Saddam is of any danger. Simple as that.<span id='postcolor'>

IMO, they don't think he is because they want to disagree with Bush.  But that's just me.  There is proof, and our elected officials agree that saddam is a threat.<span id='postcolor'>

We seem to go around in circles. The IAEA saw the same evidence and concluded that it wasn't good enough on the contrary that the conclusions that were made were wrong. Again, you are basing your entire argument on the undefined belief that the US government is always right. It is quite pointless to discuss it if you refuse to be rational. It reminds me very much of Duke_of_Ray's argumentation in the God thread.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you have any proof that the U.S. intentionally took military action to cause a civilian casualty?  I doubt it.  The U.S. typically attacks civilian targets that are of use to the military at night when they're not staffed.<span id='postcolor'>

As much as you wish. Check out the NATO mission statement for the extended bombing campaign. NATO didn't aim at killing civilians, but at destorying civilian infrastructure. The buildings in Belgrade that were destroyed were as much military targets as the World Trade Center was.

Edit: Oh yeah, you keep refering to the senate vote. 23% of the senators were against an attack on Iraq. If the evidence was so clear, and the threat so present, why did so many hesitate. Source.

[ralphwiggum 6]

can we stay on topic?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..and your president knew of the attack BEFORE it did happen. <span id='postcolor'>

Proof?

I'm sure and your kind you would have us beleive that it was America's fault for WW2.

Whenever the Hirosima/Nagasaki debate is brought up it tends to hijack the original thread, so let's have no further discussion of it here. We could start another thread on that, but I'm sure it would be locked..................

Back on topic:

I'm sure that this round of inspections is to finish off what was begun in the 90's. The U.N. now has access to the sites it did not have during the first round of inspections. The sooner Saddam is out of the picture the better.

Of course North Korea is a bigger threat than Iraq, why else would 37,000 U.S. troops be stationed there?

Denoir, I thought Mods were supposed to be relatively unbiased? Now you are comparing the bombing of buildings in Belgrade to the 9/11 attacks? Sad.

I miss Placebo.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 24 2002,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">can we stay on topic? <span id='postcolor'>

Of course you say this before I get a chance to fight back.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Dec. 24 2002,04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, I thought Mods were supposed to be relatively unbiased?<span id='postcolor'>

Bollocks, only when it comes to upholding forum rules. That isn't the same as not having an opinion. Also, I might remind you that if you have any comments on how the forum is moderated, the proper way to discuss it is to send me a pm.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now you are comparing the bombing of buildings in Belgrade to the 9/11 attacks?   Sad.<span id='postcolor'>

Indeed. Although the number of killed in Belgrade was nowhere near the number of killed in New York it was just as bad in priciple.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 24 2002,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">can we stay on topic? <span id='postcolor'>

Of course you say this before I get a chance to fight back. <span id='postcolor'>

He was refering to the WW2 discussion that emerged, not the Iraq, bombing of civilian discussions.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 24 2002,04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Dec. 24 2002,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">can we stay on topic? <span id='postcolor'>

Of course you say this before I get a chance to fight back. <span id='postcolor'>

He was refering to the WW2 discussion that emerged, not the Iraq, bombing of civilian discussions.<span id='postcolor'>

yup.....although we can talk days and days about Pearl Harbor, let's stay on thread topic plz.

[FSPilot 0]

Oh! Ok.

Basically my point is that Saddam Hussein targeted civilian populations. The U.S./NATO only targeted civilian infrastructure, taking care not to harm the civilians. The difference is in the loss of life.

[Frisbee 0]

But you're still saying that there's evidence, that your governement has seen it,and you believe that so there's enough reason for a war.

Now put yourself in the position of someone who'd have a relative going to the war,or actually going to the war yourself,I think you'd like to see evidence yourself.

Proof isn't proof if it can't be disclosed to the public,note my example in one of my posts a while back.

If you'd follow your governement blindly in everything because they are 'chosen representatives' they could do whatever the hell they please.(note:Your president doesn't even represent the majority of the americans if you look at the number of votes,or so i believe,that would make on think about the representativity,no?)

But then again,only in america,other countries'd scream bloody murder if their governements'd do something like this without informing the public why.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But then again,only in america,other countries'd scream bloody murder if their governements'd do something like this without informing the public why. <span id='postcolor'>

That happens in every democratic country. (Except Canada )

When put in context, the U.S. was attacked on 9/11, other countries were not. So it's obvious to see why alot of Americans support the 'war on terror'.

Tyler

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

How many civilian casualties would we get if saddam handed a nuclear device to some terrorist organisation?

How many civilian casualties would we get if US handed their biological weapons to some terrorist organisation?

You make me laugh here as the Anthrax delivered to US people was developed and made in U.S.A. What now ? Bomb Washington ? Don´t believe me ? Check public news sources and Pentagon report.

So where does he have his nukes ? You know ? You have proof ? You (and your admired government ) close your eyes towards North Korea. They have nukes, they have shutdown UN monitoring cameras and gained access to 8000 burnt nuke elements. Where is your war on terror ? Rumsfeld , the great speaker of war was VERY moderate today towards North Korea. Are you afraid to go with real enemies and start a war on suspicion and media crap ?

Quote

The USAF spends millions of dollars developing these weapons, more money training pilots to use them too.

So why dont they work properly ? I mean the bomblets you release in large extend have a high failure quote actually killing or hurting people loooong after your presence in a region. I doubt that the failure rate is a result of research but an option to doubleuse them as landmines. And yes I have seen them.

Quote

I trust my president, and my senate about the evidence to support that.

Sign up to army then. Go to war, feel it , smell it, hear it , dream of it. You have NO idea what it looks like in real life.

You dont even question your president in a bit. Ever wondered why he closed up all the papers of himself (governor time) and his daddies presidential time with the Patriot act ? You are blind man.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course you say this before I get a chance to fight back. <span id='postcolor'>

Ok keep it coming FS. I´d like to hear your opinions on this. You always tend to overread posts that dont fit you, so have a go on this one.

I dare you

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Dec. 23 2002,05:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..and your president knew of the attack BEFORE it did happen. <span id='postcolor'>

Proof?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, there was a documentary about Pearl H. a while ago (when the movie was released, National Geographic Channel showed a documentary about the facts and they compared it with the movie).

One of the facts was that some people (can't remember who) received telegrams that Japanese fighter planes were planning to do something at PH, they were planning an attack. For some reason nobody accepted this telegram as a real thing and it was just ignored, nobody knows why. Or at least nobody wants to tell us why...

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Dec. 24 2002,01:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you have a point but i don't really think your in much of a position to be condeming us when your country was doing the same thing.<span id='postcolor'>

I completely agree, although i think that your source is beating around the bush saying that stuff about how we didn't want to kill German civilians. I'm afraid that we really didn't give a shit if they died and we bombed many large cities into extinction on purpose. The fact that the RAF flew at night and couldn't see what they were bombing is a bit of evidence to suggest they were not aiming much at all.

In fact the Americans then were far nicer, they lost a lot of planes flying in broad daylight so they could target accurately. We didn't really have the same principles as we had been in the war two years longer, lost a lot more people and had the same indiscriminate bombing done to us.

There are theories (probably bollocks) that we only started to bomb German cities after a German bomber got disorientated and dropped his bombs into a civilian area and therefore we start bombing their cities.

I'm not saying that Britain is better than America, because we were evil bastards that ruled a third of the world for 300 years and did really bad things in the world wars. I'm just saying that if you ask a British person like Badgerboy has Britain ever killed civilians intentionally he would probably say yes (unless he's royalty of course lol).

FSPilot seems to believe that America can do no evil. I won;t bother trying to persuade him otherwise, i'll leave it to more articulate people.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 24 2002,14:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot seems to believe that America can do no evil. I won;t bother trying to persuade him otherwise, i'll leave it to more articulate people.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so it's not just me then, other people see it too *sigh of relief* I was starting to think I was the crazy one.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 24 2002,21:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now put yourself in the position of someone who'd have a relative going to the war,or actually going to the war yourself,I think you'd like to see evidence yourself.<span id='postcolor'>

Give me... 5 years and I'll be a combat capable pilot.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Proof isn't proof if it can't be disclosed to the public,note my example in one of my posts a while back.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, no it is. It still exists. Just because you don't know about Saddam's WMDs doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you'd follow your governement blindly in everything because they are 'chosen representatives' they could do whatever the hell they please.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't follow my government blindly, in this situation I have to trust my elected officials because the information CANT be made available to me.

Look at it this way. Saddam is a ruthless dictator who has attacked civilians (with intent to damage the population ) and invaded helpless countries in the past, now that he MIGHT have WMDs, that's more than enough reason for me to attack.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(note:Your president doesn't even represent the majority of the americans if you look at the number of votes,or so i believe,that would make on think about the representativity,no?)<span id='postcolor'>

Actually I think he's up in the 70s now. But I don't have a source.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok keep it coming FS. I´d like to hear your opinions on this. You always tend to overread posts that dont fit you, so have a go on this one.

I dare you <span id='postcolor'>

Where's your holiday spirit? No triple dog dare? Somone needs to watch "A Christmas Story".

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One of the facts was that some people (can't remember who) received telegrams that Japanese fighter planes were planning to do something at PH, they were planning an attack. For some reason nobody accepted this telegram as a real thing and it was just ignored, nobody knows why. Or at least nobody wants to tell us why...<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so tell us now how, if an attack is already being planned and may even be on it's way, how diplomacy can help the situation.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot seems to believe that America can do no evil. I won;t bother trying to persuade him otherwise, i'll leave it to more articulate people.<span id='postcolor'>

What are you, new or just illiterate?

I've said before that I know my country has made mistakes, but I'm not going to abandon it and run for high ground about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, so it's not just me then, other people see it too *sigh of relief* I was starting to think I was the crazy one.<span id='postcolor'>

You're not?

[Guest]

Can we please stay away from the WW2 topic? Pretty please?

As for the discussion with FSPilot, I won't bother anymore. A discussion is only interesting as long as your opposing part is willing to listen to rational arguments. FSPilot has already made up his mind. Trying to convince him that a war on Iraq might be wrong is quite pointless since he has already made up his mind and won't change it. I have personally better things to do then to bang my head against a wall

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,18:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Proof isn't proof if it can't be disclosed to the public,note my example in one of my posts a while back.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, no it is.  It still exists.  Just because you don't know about Saddam's WMDs doesn't mean he doesn't have them.<span id='postcolor'>

And just because your government says they have proof, it dosen't mean they actually do.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you'd follow your governement blindly in everything because they are 'chosen representatives' they could do whatever the hell they please.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't follow my government blindly, in this situation I have to trust my elected officials because the information CANT be made available to me.

Look at it this way.  Saddam is a ruthless dictator who has attacked civilians (with intent to damage the population ) and invaded helpless countries in the past, now that he MIGHT have WMDs, that's more than enough reason for me to attack.

<span id='postcolor'>

And yet the US has supported similar dictators when it suited them. Hell, in fact, they used to be good buddies with Saddam!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One of the facts was that some people (can't remember who) received telegrams that Japanese fighter planes were planning to do something at PH, they were planning an attack.  For some reason nobody accepted this telegram as a real thing and it was just ignored, nobody knows why.  Or at least nobody wants to tell us why...<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, so tell us now how, if an attack is already being planned and may even be on it's way, how diplomacy can help the situation.

<span id='postcolor'>

The point is the president did nothing to warn the commanders at Pearl Harbor. It seems like he wanted a surprize attack to take place in order to enrage the American public.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot seems to believe that America can do no evil. I won;t bother trying to persuade him otherwise, i'll leave it to more articulate people.<span id='postcolor'>

What are you, new or just illiterate?

I've said before that I know my country has made mistakes, but I'm not going to abandon it and run for high ground about it.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yet many of these past mistakes you defend. You've stated that the US was quite justified in setting up puppet dictatorships, and defended that because US citizens enjoy such a wonderful democracy and economy....right....does anyone else see something extreemely rotten in that logic? Furthermore you refuse to contemplate the possibility that the US may be making mistakes in the present. It's as if you're saying "sure, mistakes have been made, but there's no way our president now is making one, I trust him!"

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span>Sorry about the reply to the WW2 argument denoir, was writting it before you posted. You're right about the futility of arguing with FS, don't know why I keep coming back, one of the reasons I'm in programing is I like to fiddle around with flawed logic till it works, I guess that must be it

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 25 2002,00:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot has already made up his mind. Trying to convince him that a war on Iraq might be wrong is quite pointless since he has already made up his mind and won't change it. I have personally better things to do then to bang my head against a wall <span id='postcolor'>

Did you ever consider that you were wrong? Or is that just inconceivable.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And just because your government says they have proof, it dosen't mean they actually do.<span id='postcolor'>

Granted, but I doubt the majority of our senate would lie about something. Maybe I'm just an innocent uneducated American.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And yet the US has supported similar dictators when it suited them. Hell, in fact, they used to be good buddies with Saddam!<span id='postcolor'>

This is when he was attacking our enemys, not his helpless neighbors.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yet many of these past mistakes you defend. You've stated that the US was quite justified in setting up puppet dictatorships, and defended that because US citizens enjoy such a wonderful democracy and economy....right....does anyone else see something extreemely rotten in that logic? <span id='postcolor'>

Well if the U.S. was setting up copies of its own economy and government, which have worked wonderfully for the American people, why wouldn't they work wonderfully for whatever nation we had set up the gov't. in?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Furthermore you refuse to contemplate the possibility that the US may be making mistakes in the present. It's as if you're saying "sure, mistakes have been made, but there's no way our president now is making one, I trust him!"<span id='postcolor'>

Because nobodys shown me how we're making a mistake. You've only come up with poor theories that revolve around my president being a moron, or a greedy liar. I don't believe either is true.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 25 2002,00:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FSPilot has already made up his mind. Trying to convince him that a war on Iraq might be wrong is quite pointless since he has already made up his mind and won't change it. I have personally better things to do then to bang my head against a wall <span id='postcolor'>

Did you ever consider that you were wrong?  Or is that just inconceivable.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol pot and kettle. classic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yet many of these past mistakes you defend. You've stated that the US was quite justified in setting up puppet dictatorships, and defended that because US citizens enjoy such a wonderful democracy and economy....right....does anyone else see something extreemely rotten in that logic? <span id='postcolor'>

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Well if the U.S. was setting up copies of its own economy and government, which have worked wonderfully for the American people, why wouldn't they work wonderfully for whatever nation we had set up the gov't. in?

<span id='postcolor'>

Please read that again, especially the parts I've bolded...please read it two or three times to make sure you actually understand...and reconsider your reply...you have no idea how difficult it is to restrain myself from flaming you now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Furthermore you refuse to contemplate the possibility that the US may be making mistakes in the present. It's as if you're saying "sure, mistakes have been made, but there's no way our president now is making one, I trust him!"

Because nobodys shown me how we're making a mistake. You've only come up with poor theories that revolve around my president being a moron, or a greedy liar. I don't believe either is true.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, I've shown past examples where US foreign policy has shown to be hypocritical and in the wrong.

[ralphwiggum 6]

this page is 68 pages long, and i'd hate to lock this thread. it's so far the only decent Iraq related thread we have. so each side, please be civil to each other.

[theavonlady 2]

The Shell Game.

[Frisbee 0]

Your senate says there's WMD's there and you would go there,fight and possibly die,if you'd be in service already of course.

Without seeing the proof yourself.

I'd call that doing your job,fine,but it's our duty as the public to demand proof why we should send our family to battle that might as well be needless.

IF the entire united nations agreed there was SUBSTANTIAL proof that there are either WMD's in iraq or links with terrorist organisations,fine.

But now,ONLY the us,which is the only country that WANTS a war has proof and 'cannot disclose it,because well, they just can't' doesn't that seem strikingly odd to you?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Dec. 25 2002,02:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, I've shown past examples where US foreign policy has shown to be hypocritical and in the wrong.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, past examples don't dictate what's happening now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your senate says there's WMD's there and you would go there,fight and possibly die,if you'd be in service already of course.

Without seeing the proof yourself.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't need to see the proof.  I understand why I can't see the proof too.

I just find it hard to believe that the majority of the U.S. senate, the president of the united states, and his entire cabinet would lie to his country for something as small as OIL.

What I find odd is your constant ignoring of the point that we CANT reveal the source for this evidence because it would comprimise the source.  I've said this plenty of times before.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But now,ONLY the us,which is the only country that WANTS a war has proof and 'cannot disclose it,because well, they just can't' doesn't that seem strikingly odd to you?<span id='postcolor'>

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._sharon