The Iraq Thread

[kojak_2002 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 10 2002,23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I doubt that an UN permission for war will be given this time. In Afghanistan UN was split and not very willing to assist US plans. They did under the shadow od 9/11 , but I dont think they wil do again.<span id='postcolor'>

What makes you think the US will give a shit about what the UN think? I'm not having a go at you, I just don't think the UN have the guts.

Who exactly is going to stop America if they do decide to invade without a mandate? I look forward to the replies...

Also, I wonder why the US waited 11 years to take out Saddam? I mean, it's not like there's a lack of other dictatorships that contravene basic human rights (China, anyone? Oh, what about Saudi Arabia) and as for countries developing WMD, what about North Korea?

Everyone, this is all about oil and establishing a new world order in the middle East.

Regards, and please, no personal flames

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kojak_2002 @ Dec. 11 2002,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, I wonder why the US waited 11 years to take out Saddam?<span id='postcolor'>

thats a easy enough question, good old willy didn't feel that there was a need to have a war w/ Iraq. there was a skirmish during his time that was about the worse, i don't even remember what it was about to be honest.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 11 2002,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 10 2002,23:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More probably Ceausescu (Romania). He wasn't dragged in the streeets, but he was executed in a hurry by a firing squad.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm...maybe that was him...

*scratching head*<span id='postcolor'>

Mussolini?

[Schoeler 0]

We will have to wait and see how the Iraqi people respond to a U.S. invasion because unfortunately I feel that Saddam has lied about WMD (the CIA is very good after all, and swears he has them) and Bush definitely wants this war, so it seems inevitable. I agree that there are probably plenty of people who would rather not see a U.S. invasion, but there are probably many others whose opinions are currently being suppressed who might welcome U.S. assistance in regime change. Don't forget that many Iraqi intellectuals and military leaders defected and have formed the core of an increasingly more organized and ever growing Iraqi opposition group. That has to say something doesn't it? I don't want a war, I don't want to see Iraqi civilians killed because I believe they are good people. I don't want to see American servicemen killed either, but if war is the only way of removing an evil dictator and improving the lives of a great many Iraqis, then so be it. My hope is that the Iraqi people will see the potential of U.S. assistance in forming a new government and turn on Saddam so that the war ends quickly and with minimal casualties. Lets hope this happens.

Sure Bush has underlying motivations for an Iraqi war. In a way, I can see why. Iraq is sitting atop the world's 2nd largest undeveloped oil field and after 9-11, if the U.S. gets a cooperative government installed in Iraq, they can broker a sweet deal for themselves that makes us less beholden to the radical Saudis from whom the majority of the 9-11 terrorists and their murderous ideology sprang forth. It may not be right, but it makes good sense. Who here can claim that EVERY nation does not look out for its own interests first? Its a basic fact of political science and is only now being trumped by new theories and schools of thought. Most nations protect their own interests first and then worry about those of other people, its human nature.

As for the U.S. going against the U.N. on this, where are you getting this information? Despite the fact that Bush wants this war, he has worked with the U.N. in negotiating a new plan for inspections, and actually made a few concessions to get the deal done. Now he's taking a wait and see approach to the inspections. Lets face it, the odds are that Iraq has WMD, Saddam is obsessed with them and has been caught with his pants around his ankles with respect to them before. He's had years to get even more proficient at hiding his programs, so its likely his declaration of zero weapons is a lie. That means the U.S. will go to war, but it doesn't mean we will do it before the U.N. agrees its necessary. That is just mere speculation until it actually happens. I think Bush isn't the brightest guy in the world, but he's got to realize the political and economic consequences of acting unilaterally. I don't think he will do that. What I'm afraid of is that the U.N. will decide to invade Iraq and all the anti-U.S. people out there will interpret the decision as one of the U.N. being manipulated by the U.S. I can't wait to see the reactions of people who refuse to believe that the U.N. could possibly decidethat it might be best to invade Iraq to get rid of its WMD.

Unfortunately, U.S. foreign policy has led to a lot of hatred in the Middle East and its going to be a long time before that subsides. So, sitting here from gound zero, it makes a lot of sense security-wise to insure Iraq has no WMD so that they can't be used against us or given to terrorists. Remember that France presented significant evidence that Mohammad Atta was an Iraqi intelligence officer, and many of the hijackers recieved training in Iraq. Its simply sound strategic policy. Since the arabs hate us any way, why not go in and fix a few problems, and who knows, maybe they might appreciate our help in the long run? Once Iraq is stabilized and we can broker a good oil deal for us and our allies, we can force the Saudis to toe the line.

And France and Russia objecting to a war, who are you kidding? Everyone knows they have deals in place with Saddam to develop the oil fields, multi-billion dollar deals which they stand to lose with a regime change in Iraq, so of course they oppose a war! Again, an example of nations simply looking out for their own best interests. I've read that Russia is cutting back-room deals as we speak to get in on the oil boom after Iraq is defeated, so expect to see their "oposition" fade away really soon.

As far as afghanis not supporting the new government, that is a rather simplistic viewpoint is it not? Consider that Afghanistan has basically been lawless for most of the last century. It stands to reason that there are many factions and elements within that society vying for power who are going to oppose any government that poses a threat to them and their power base. A lot of tribes want to get their opium operations back on line and it seems unlikely that a U.S. backed government is going to allow that to happen, so of course they oppose that regime. As for letting them decide for themselves, the U.S. tried that for the last 20 or so years and we got Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban out of it for our efforts. You can't just let things go, once you intercede you have to stay involved until stability returns, its just the right thing to do. Notice how the U.S. is getting NATO and the U.N. to play a broader role in shoring up the Karzai regime? Its obvious we don't want to generate resentment by making it seem the new government is a U.S. puppet.

As for North Korea, all things come in due time. Notice how they just got zapped shipping Scud missiles to the mid-east. Don't think the CIA isn't working on building a case for going there next. I wouldn't be surprised to see a second U.N. action in Korea in the next few years, but hopefully not until we get the Mid-East settled down. It would help if the U.S. could get a Peace settlement worked out between Israel and the Palestinians. I think that would go a long way towards demonstrating to the world that our intentions are good and sincere.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Dec. 10 2002,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We will have to wait and see how the Iraqi people respond to a U.S. invasion because unfortunately I feel that Saddam has lied about WMD (the CIA is very good after all, and swears he has them) and Bush definitely wants this war, so it seems inevitable. I agree that there are probably plenty of people who would rather not see a U.S. invasion, but there are probably many others whose opinions are currently being suppressed who might welcome U.S. assistance in regime change. Don't forget that many Iraqi intellectuals and military leaders defected and have formed the core of an increasingly more organized and ever growing Iraqi opposition group. That has to say something doesn't it? I don't want a war, I don't want to see Iraqi civilians killed because I believe they are good people. I don't want to see American servicemen killed either, but if war is the only way of removing an evil dictator and improving the lives of a great many Iraqis, then so be it. My hope is that the Iraqi people will see the potential of U.S. assistance in forming a new government and turn on Saddam so that the war ends quickly and with minimal casualties. Lets hope this happens.<span id='postcolor'>

Gee, I don't have time to read your whole post yet so I'll counter your first paragraph.

If the majority of Iraqis are being opressed like that, and would like to have Hussein removed, then the fight will resolve itself within 3-6 weeks with a civil war. We will wait and see, although analysis should be done before invading. (what am I talking about, pre emptive war is simply not justified!

[Schoeler 0]

I would have to suppose one's views on the justificability of such matters rests upon the odds of your hometown disappearing in a nuclear fireball or your family dying horribly from an anthrax or smallpox release because some terrorist thinks you are evil after a lifetime of being schooled in anti-U.S. propaganda. Sitting here at ground zero, I have few qualms about a pre-emptive strike.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 11 2002,09:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the majority of Iraqis are being opressed like that, and would like to have Hussein removed, then the fight will resolve itself within 3-6 weeks with a civil war.  <span id='postcolor'>

Do I have to remind you what kind of a civil war they had back in the 90's without the U.S. support?

I highly doubt they'd attempt that again.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,22:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do I have to remind you what kind of a civil war they had back in the 90's without the U.S. support?

I highly doubt they'd attempt that again.<span id='postcolor'>

Iraq? Civil War? Eh?

[FSPilot 0]

Right at the end of desert storm the U.S. told the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam. They thought they would have U.S. support against Saddam's armys, so they did. But the civilians ended up getting slaughtered by the army. We couldn't do anything because we had just signed the cease fire, but they wanted Saddam out of power and tried.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,23:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Right at the end of desert storm the U.S. told the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam.  They thought they would have U.S. support against Saddam's armys, so they did.  But the civilians ended up getting slaughtered by the army.  We couldn't do anything because we had just signed the cease fire, but they wanted Saddam out of power and tried.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol, that was a very very minor rebellion in the north. Not a civil war.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 11 2002,23:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,23:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Right at the end of desert storm the U.S. told the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam.  They thought they would have U.S. support against Saddam's armys, so they did.  But the civilians ended up getting slaughtered by the army.  We couldn't do anything because we had just signed the cease fire, but they wanted Saddam out of power and tried.<span id='postcolor'>

Lol, that was a very very minor rebellion in the north. Not a civil war.<span id='postcolor'>

nonsense, buddy.

saddam was smart to negotiate the southern no-fly zone the way he did, since he sent no-fly-exempt helo gunships against the rebelling shiites around basra.

I predict that iraq territorially will not continue the way it is today, if an invasion - not least by exile-iraqis - will occur early next year.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Dec. 11 2002,23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">saddam was smart to negotiate the southern no-fly zone the way he did, since he sent no-fly-exempt helo gunships against the rebelling shiites around basra.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, yes, and that lasted what five or six days (I think it was five). So again, that is not a civil war. If you call such an uprising for a civil war then clearly you have no clue what you are talking about.

[Schoeler 0]

No need to get personal now, this is a philosophical discussion. Anyway, it would probably best be described as an aborted civil war attempt. Without the U.S. air support they thought they were going to recieve, the rebellious Iraqis were very quickly put down. Its an established fact.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,16:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 11 2002,09:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the majority of Iraqis are being opressed like that, and would like to have Hussein removed, then the fight will resolve itself within 3-6 weeks with a civil war. <span id='postcolor'>

Do I have to remind you what kind of a civil war they had back in the 90's without the U.S. support?

I highly doubt they'd attempt that again.<span id='postcolor'>

Like I said, if they are opressed like that then they will attempt to fight back. There would be a civil war if they were holding their breath for this long.

If they do not, then I guess the US should stay away from there because the Iraqis don't want their help.

It will be nearly impossible to find out the truth from the media once things start rolling though....

[Schoeler 0]

I have to agree with that. I don't think the media will even be allowed to get near this one.

As for the Iraqis, I just have a feeling they will welcome the U.S. Time will tell.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like I said, if they are opressed like that then they will attempt to fight back. There would be a civil war if they were holding their breath for this long.<span id='postcolor'>

Or they would sit on their hands waiting for us to do something because they're afraid of being slaughtered again.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If they do not, then I guess the US should stay away from there because the Iraqis don't want their help.<span id='postcolor'>

The U.S. might take Saddam out for more than one reason. This isn't all about the Iraqi people. Even if they don't want us to liberate them we'd still do it if he posed a threat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It will be nearly impossible to find out the truth from the media once things start rolling though....<span id='postcolor'>

For once I agree with you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you call such an uprising for a civil war then clearly you have no clue what you are talking about.<span id='postcolor'>

Quit nitpicking my choice of words. What difference does it make if it were a rebellion or a civil war or an uprising? None. They tried to overthrow Saddam, they got slaughtered.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,19:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like I said, if they are opressed like that then they will attempt to fight back. There would be a civil war if they were holding their breath for this long.<span id='postcolor'>

Or they would sit on their hands waiting for us to do something because they're afraid of being slaughtered again.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If they do not, then I guess the US should stay away from there because the Iraqis don't want their help.<span id='postcolor'>

The U.S. might take Saddam out for more than one reason. This isn't all about the Iraqi people. Even if they don't want us to liberate them we'd still do it if he posed a threat.<span id='postcolor'>

Okay, I have not looked into this, but Iraqi officials once stated that they handed out guns to "all" their citizens. If they did, surely they can't be opressing everyone like that.

The media..... hmmm.... as an example, we don't really know that much about what goes on inside Afghanistan, other than field operation names... Anaconda, Bushwhacking etc...

EDIT: I was talking about a civilian uprising once the pressure on Iraqi forces is overwhelming... so if so many were opressed, then the war should resolve itself within 3-6 weeks as that is when Iraqi forces should be heavily strained...

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,07:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, I have not looked into this, but Iraqi officials once stated that they handed out guns to "all" their citizens.  If they did, surely they can't be opressing everyone like that.

EDIT: I was talking about a civilian uprising once the pressure on Iraqi forces is overwhelming...  so if so many were opressed, then the war should resolve itself within 3-6 weeks as that is when Iraqi forces should be heavily strained...<span id='postcolor'>

Well, first off, Iraqi officials are usually not to be trusted. That being said I'd like to see your source on that.

The officials probably got confused with Saddam's recruitment efforts (forcing everyone into their army).

I'm talking about an Iraqi uprising before we got involved, or after if we don't remove Saddam from power. Maybe we're arguing with each other about different things, lol.

[Borntokill 0]

The problem with the Americans is not in their political leadership. It is in the people. Think about it: who founded the American population. The answer is people that Europe didn't want to keep around: criminals, stupid people, very poor people etc. The American people are besically genetically defective.

They are also subconsciously aware of this and that is why they throw bombs left and right: minority complex.

[Borntokill 0]

Oh, yeah, forgot to say. I live in Dallas, so I know what I am talking about: I see them up close every day.

[Guest]

Racism will not be tolerated in these forums. Consider yourself permanently banned.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Denoir.... You stood up for us Americans!  I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm genuinely impressed.

Anyways, speaking of that Iraqi uprising. Are you guys talking about the time when George H. Bush encouraged the Iraqi opposition groups to rise up against Saddam while promising our assistance, only to back out on them as soon as Kuwait was liberated leaving them to get slaughtered by Saddams Republican Guard?  This is one of the reasons the Iraqi people hates us so much.  

The Iraqi people are neither religious fanatics nor do they care very much for their current government. Given a chance, I think Iraq could become the most influential nation in the middle east. One that other Arab counties could model themselves after.  They've got lots of oil to make them rich.  They long for free trade and a chance to make good lives for themselves.  Their attitude reflects our own style more than any place else in the middle east.  Given the opportunity, they would be a great ally for the free world.

Of course a UN mandate would be important before going in guns blazing.  However, remember that all that the US is currently doing is demanding that the UN resolutions that were signed back in 1991 are enforced.  It would be rediculous if the UN would deny NATO its blessing to go in if Saddam failed to comply with the original UN resolutions once again.  That would make the UN useless.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,21:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,07:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, I have not looked into this, but Iraqi officials once stated that they handed out guns to "all" their citizens. If they did, surely they can't be opressing everyone like that.

EDIT: I was talking about a civilian uprising once the pressure on Iraqi forces is overwhelming... so if so many were opressed, then the war should resolve itself within 3-6 weeks as that is when Iraqi forces should be heavily strained...<span id='postcolor'>

Well, first off, Iraqi officials are usually not to be trusted. That being said I'd like to see your source on that.

The officials probably got confused with Saddam's recruitment efforts (forcing everyone into their army).

I'm talking about an Iraqi uprising before we got involved, or after if we don't remove Saddam from power. Maybe we're arguing with each other about different things, lol.<span id='postcolor'>

Better yet why don't you research it...

I told you I have not looked into it, and I am not saying it is absolutely true, I give my info usually without sources, which is funny, because the U.S. claims it can not reveal it's info because it's sources will be revealed... lol

(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago. research it)

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better yet why don't you research it...<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, that's your job.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told you I have not looked into it, and I am not saying it is absolutely true, I give my info usually without sources, which is funny, because the U.S. claims it can not reveal it's info because it's sources will be revealed...<span id='postcolor'>

Don't tell me I have to explain what the term "top secret" means to someone with Albert Einstein for their avatar.

The U.S. isn't revealing their sources because if they do, their undercover

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago. research it)<span id='postcolor'>

Again, your job.

*high fives denoir*

Thank you.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 11 2002,07:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*high fives denoir*

Thank you. <span id='postcolor'>

Dear god!

You have changed into one of them! *shivers*