Would you be willing to die for your country?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Nov. 10 2002,17:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If i was ordered to go blasting into Iraq i would do it but i would hate doing it. mainly because there is no threat to our country from Iraq if it is not provoked (unfortunately Mr Bush has managed to get everyone focusing on Iraq with his engineered version of the truth).<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, but the point is that you would do it if you were ordered to.

That was my point from the beginning, if you are a soldier then you never have the luxury of choosing what you want to fight for so the question becomes really: is your country willing to sacrifice you for a cause?

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Nov. 10 2002,17:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Nov. 10 2002,079)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">dieing for ur country iss good huh,wonder why suicide bomber get such a bad rap then <span id='postcolor'>

Because they are not dying for their country, they're dying for their fucked up bastardized version of religion, they think by blowing themselves up murdering women and children in the name of Allah it will get them into paradise. As far as I'm concerned they can rot in hell while the good and honourable people who practice Islam will be the ones going to paradise.<span id='postcolor'>

Im sure in their little minds they would be thinking they were good andd true as say an american soldier blowing himself up near a missle launcher and troops that was going to rain fire down on frinedly forces.

I think reservist forces would be a better place to go to if u wanted to fight for ur `country becuase then u might miss out on all the petty fights and peacekeeping crrap that regular troops do although i may be mistaken.

As for deserters it would be a bit of a betrayal if they did run off,hell of a lot more if u were in a firefight grr :angry.Conscripts are another matter altogether.

The last thing u`d want is to have 2 ppl trying to tk each other,hopefully theyd both killl each other and end it quickly.

Reminds me of the bit in resistance.

[RedStorm 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Nov. 09 2002,22:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I was in the german army three years ago I bound myself with an oath to defend our nation. To do everything to serve it and the people living in it, even to die. And I`m still deadly serious with this oath.

Now it get`s a bit complicated and I hope my english won`t fail me, so you understand:

In my opinion I swore to protect our nation, not only the phrase "Germany". A nation is formed by the people and it`s no matter how it`s called. I would die for the people not for the phrase. Dying for a word is just stupid.

And it`s no question that I would die for my family or my friends or beloved ones. I`d rather die than see them getting hurt. Sacrificing your life for another one that can continue living because of you is the greatest present you can make someone.

But I hope I can avoid such selfsacrifice in future. Living with your people is better than dying for them. Death should be always the last option, but I hope that when my time has come I can face it with dignity.<span id='postcolor'>

Very well said! I fully agree.

[Benze 0]

Anytime, anywhere, any reason. <----- angry determination face.

[cybrid 0]

Not a chance, how could I die for a country that has no principals and is tearing itself apart.

[Jinef 2]

yeah i agree mainly with cybrid

I don't want to die for a stupid cause, bollocks to orders.

[5thSFG.Hawkins 0]

I would be willing to die for my country (US of A) because I believe in the ideals/values that it represents.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free" -- Ronald Reagan

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free" -- Ronald Reagan<span id='postcolor'>

That is...

No wonder Reagen said it...

I will go into war for defending my country (only if attacked by another country). I would kill people if they hurt my family. I would try to stay away from economic battles. And at least I will make it my own decision and not the decision of a madheaded politician like the one mentioned above.

[Sadico 1]

I would fight if my country was invaded. Also, if there was a civil war like the one in 1936-1939 i would fight against the fascists, as my grandfather did. I wouldn't mind going to another country on a peacekeeping mission, but i wouldn't invade another country.

[Frisbee 0]

I would fight if Belgium was ever invaded(unlikely).

But it is easier to fight for your family,your friends,your beliefs,than it is to fight for a country.

You'd only have to fight offensively if you were a soldier,which means folllowing orders and not having a choice.

What I'd really hate is dying in a style like WW1,generals who are in mansions miles from the front deciding i should storm a well-entrenched enemy,being used as cattle.That's even more pointless than dying in a war like the gulf war.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Nov. 11 2002,06:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would fight if Belgium was ever invaded(unlikely).<span id='postcolor'>

I dunno, those waffles are pretty attractive to dictators.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 10 2002,03:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Nov. 11 2002,06:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would fight if Belgium was ever invaded(unlikely).<span id='postcolor'>

I dunno, those waffles are pretty attractive to dictators.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, we better nuke them before they attack us! I just hope the UN will agree with us...

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 11 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, we better nuke them before they attack us!  I just hope the UN will agree with us...<span id='postcolor'>

You can't do that!! It would melt all the chocolate!

[LowLevelFunctionary 0]

Why die? Play operation flashpoint. It feels better, you dont get dirty and you also get to laugh and talk about your kill with the person who killed you!(unless of course your playing a COOP)

Oh yeah and you can sprint for as long as you want That will really get the girls turning their heads

[advocatexxx 0]

You would die if ordered to into a battle you know you'd lose ? Furthermore die for a country of which beliefs/interests/practices you completely disagree with?

example: If Bush and Saadam have a conflict why not let them resolve it alone ? Have them fight in a duel with swords or pistols. Whoever wins.. wins the conflict. Only one casualty will result. Instead hundreds of thousands of men with families on each side are pitted against one another and an immense amount of resources and money is poured into the conflict, not to mention the time, yet the result will be all the same.

I'm a military buff, true. I like it all because of the typical stereotype macho man. There are powerful, loud, big and heavy machines involved so naturally I feel attracted to that. I often thought of joining the armed services, though for the experience only. Would I take a bullet in my head because Mr. Bush thinks this and that? Nah. If someone attacked me or my family or my house I'd definitely die to keep those close to me safe, but to die for a corrupt political cause simply because you're ordered to? No way.

Although seeing how a full draft in USA is now extremely unlikely I don't let that bother me.

It would be different however if Iraq somehow managed to invade USA and my city in particular. If I feel personally threatened then I would put my life on the line.

[nierop 0]

Ok now its my turn.

I think that in priciple it is good that you want to run the risk to die when defending stuff that are precious to you. And many people agree on this like when you defend your country from an invading force.

However, I get a bit uncomfortable feeling when people start arguing that they do so because they swore a pledge of allegeance (or how is it called). I understand that military peeps think this way because they have been trained to do so. But, in my opinion, having such an attitude you contribute to the current state of the world with severe armed conflicts.

What I mean; at the moment countries are not merely pieces of land, but they represent (often globaly) a way of living and thinking. Most western soldiers that at the moment die in combat do not do this to defend their land, but fight wars to defend certain values and lifestyles IN OTHER COUNTRIES. Problem with this is that politicians (that try to play the people like puppets through the media, hence the term media wars for current wars) can point out any country/religion/etc. as a threat to its own values often masking primary considerations that consider economical benefit, strategic considerations, etc. Try it yourself, US -> Iraq  Russia -> Tsjetsnja  China -> Falun Gong, Taiwan   Israel -> Palestine; why are these wars happening? Probably because both sides tell their people that its a good cause dying. But are they?

So, bottom line is that this world will explode sometimes in a nuclear blast because some people wanted to die for their county. For instance, (I understand that these things are sensitive after sept 11th so plz do not feel offended) although the US has been attacked by airliner planes, the president (and coworkers) have created an image that fighting Iraq will make the US a safer place. But no proof of the link between al qaida and Iraq has been presented, and many people (also americans) doubt the reasons why Buch wants this war...(oil, elections?). Politicians/presidents are no sacred people, history has learned us that much. So, think twice about what is the actual reason you are dying for...country or something else

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ Nov. 10 2002,18:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">example: If Bush and Saadam have a conflict why not let them resolve it alone ?  Have them fight in a duel with swords or pistols.  Whoever wins.. wins the conflict.  Only one casualty will result.  Instead hundreds of thousands of men with families on each side are pitted against one another and an immense amount of resources and money is poured into the conflict, not to mention the time, yet the result will be all the same.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly, but i guess it would be rather unfair, everyone knows that Sadam would win a duel...

[Erex 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nierop @ Nov. 11 2002,18:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... Most western soldiers that at the moment die in combat do not do this to defend their land, but fight wars to defend certain values and lifestyles IN OTHER COUNTRIES. ...<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe im wrong, but as far as i have seen when you are somewhere you fight for you mates in squad and for hope to get out of there ASAP and alive. You risk your live for your friends, cause you expect they do that same for you(and if u are under fire you are really close to your comrades),  and maybe for your commander

If someone tell you that he fight for democracy, freedom etc etc etc dont belive him. Its probably some kind of idiot that never saw a real action. I dont have

This is my point of view.

[RedStorm 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Erex @ Nov. 11 2002,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nierop @ Nov. 11 2002,18:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... Most western soldiers that at the moment die in combat do not do this to defend their land, but fight wars to defend certain values and lifestyles IN OTHER COUNTRIES. ...<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe im wrong, but as far as i have seen when you are somewhere you fight for you mates in squad and for hope to get out of there ASAP and alive. You risk your live for your friends, cause you expect they do that same for you(and if u are under fire you are really close to your comrades),  and maybe for your commander

If someone tell you that he fight for democracy, freedom etc etc etc dont belive him. Its probably some kind of idiot that never saw a real action. I dont have

This is my point of view.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. Soldiers fight to keep their friends alive and their friends fight to keep them alive. Band of brothers.

[NavyEEL 0]

I agree--once you're in a combat situation you fight for each other, not for "ideals" or any other reason. I believe in fighting for one's country too however, and I also believe in following orders. It's not a soldier's job to question whether or not his actions are in the best interest of the nation. That's the job of elections, the President, and Congress. His job is to carry out their decision.

[5thSFG.Hawkins 0]

Eel, that sums it up quite nicely.

[RaptorAce 0]

I would, and I hope to go into the USAF and maybe fight in iraq

[Erex 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 12 2002,03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree--once you're in a combat situation you fight for each other, not for "ideals" or any other reason.  I believe in fighting for one's country too however, and I also believe in following orders.  It's not a soldier's job to question whether or not his actions are in the best interest of the nation.  That's the job of elections, the President, and Congress.  His job is to carry out their decision.<span id='postcolor'>

The situation not so clear as we want to (or at least some of us in armed forces)

I would like to cite from a Robin Neillands book, military historian and co-founder of modern Royal Marine Commandos  

Soldiers in democratic countries are primary citizens of those countries and they are peg down by same law as citizens of those countries. Thats a fact, that peoples sometimes forget, even tought it for british army clearly entact british parliament already in 1693, after regime of Argylles massacred MacDonalds from Glencoe:

"Even tought the order of officer is absolute, no order against the law should be fulfilled; soldier, which wants to keep his pay, should refuse to coomit a barbarian act, because soldier, which get the order, to shot an innocent civilian, this order will not protect him against pusniment for murder"

So here you see that its not always easy to be a soldier and as Ran said few posts ago:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Nov. 09 2002,23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are a few times where you deliberately have to disobey direct orders , i've done it several times on the field and sometimes sanctionned , but most of the time i did it in my interest and in the interest of my men and comrades<span id='postcolor'>

Overall this and ROE are the reasons why i never want to participate in peace keeping missions

P.S. Sorry for that translation, english isnt my primary language  

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Erex @ Nov. 12 2002,08:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The situation not so clear as we want to (or at least some of us in armed forces)

I would like to cite from a Robin Neillands book, military historian and co-founder of modern Royal Marine Commandos  

Soldiers in democratic countries are primary citizens of those countries and they are peg down by same law as citizens of those countries. Thats a fact, that peoples sometimes forget, even tought it for british army clearly entact british parliament already in 1693, after regime of Argylles massacred MacDonalds from Glencoe:

"Even tought the order of officer is absolute, no order against the law should be fulfilled; soldier, which wants to keep his pay, should refuse to coomit a barbarian act, because soldier, which get the order, to shot an innocent civilian, this order will not protect him against pusniment for murder"<span id='postcolor'>

The fundamental issue is if you can decide what an illegal order is. I look at it this way: I trust my country and my superior officers not to issue any illegal orders just as I would not issue one to the men under me. I have a firm belief in the chain of command but that is because I generally trust my country's policy and our military culture.

However, the more pressing issue is not refusing executing an order but taking an initiative that is against the ROE. I have been fortunate never to get in such a dilemma. In Kosovo, we had a very good ROE and the situation was pretty stable so it never came to any problems. I can however imagine the frustration of the UN troops in for instance Bosnia in 92/93. I really wouldn't want to be in such a situation where you have to sit and watch a slaughter of civilians and not be able to act because of a crappy ROE.

The question is: Do your duties as a human being superceed your duties as a soldier? I have no answer to that.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Nov. 12 2002,04:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would, and I hope to go into the USAF and maybe fight in iraq<span id='postcolor'>

This sounds a little naive. Reminds me of the students at the beginning of the film "all quiet on the western front" (film). Sounds a little bit like someone thinks Iraq is like StarshipTroopers.