Afghanistan General

[mistyronin 1181]

Sitrep on Afghanistan by the US Army's General John Campbell, commander of ISAF:

( Al Jazeera ) General John Campbell: Mission impossible?

A NATO force was sent to Afghanistan 13 years ago to seek out al-Qaeda and destroy it. At its peak NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) numbered 140,000, with soldiers drawn from 46 countries.

Their mission evolved. With al-Qaeda disappearing into the shadows ISAF took on the Taliban, who had hosted al-Qaeda leaders and their training camps before the 9/11 attacks.

The cost of this war has been far reaching. Almost 3,500 coalition soldiers have died and over 18,000 civilians were killed. In monetary terms the total in military and reconstruction budget runs into hundreds of billions of dollars.

A presidential election earlier this year, heralded as a sign of stability, and saw President Hamid Karzai hand power to Ashraf Ghani. President Ghani's first major act was to sign the BSA, the Bilateral Security Agreement, that permits 12,000 US soldiers to stay after 2014.

[mistyronin 1181]

The first lines of this piece of news says everything...

( Al Jazeera ) NATO holds ceremony closing Afghan mission

Event carried out in secret due to threat of Taliban strikes in Afghan capital, which has been hit by repeated bombings.

NATO has held a ceremony in Kabul formally ending its war in Afghanistan, officials said, after 13 years of conflict and gradual troop withdrawals that have left the country in the grip of worsening conflicts with armed groups.

The event was carried out on Sunday in secret due to the threat of Taliban strikes in the Afghan capital, which has been hit by repeated suicide bombings and gun attacks over recent years.

On January 1, the US-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) combat mission will be replaced by a NATO "training and support" mission.

( The Guardian ) Nato ends combat operations in Afghanistan

After 13 years of war, Nato formally ended its combat operations in Afghanistan on Sunday, leaving the Afghan army and police in charge of security in a country plagued by continued fighting, a ferocious insurgency and a rising tide of both military and civilian casualties.

Against a backdrop of violent clashes in a number of provinces and several weeks of deadly attacks on the capital, military leaders lowered the flag of a mission conceived in 2001, and hoisted the colours of a new one under which Nato’s role will largely be restricted to training, advising and assisting the local army and police.

Edited December 28, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

This is just as ridiculous as Bushs "Mission accomplished" speech after the Iraq war.

[chrisb 196]

Another mess, at the cost of many lives.

Politicians! they should be front line first, then perhaps they'd think twice.

Our western lives seem far more important, as to those living elsewhere, why that is, is anyone's guess.:confused:. 18,000 just sad :mad: :( why???

The troops that gave their lives come home in a coffin with the flag draped over, as it should be, very respectful. They have a respectful service and burial. Many of those families then start to ask why, they need a clear answer, which of course, they're never given.

However, most civilians in this type of war zone, get pushed into a hastily dug 'dust hole' in the ground with 20 other corpses, lucky to be wrapped in an old blanket, with very few words, just misery for those left behind. They also ask why and never get the answer.

I'm not against war, in some cases its all that's left. But war should be for a legitimate reason, that reason needs to be made very clear to those risking everything going over to fight and also to those that are civilians, who usually have little choice in the matter.

[TheMightyKovacs 6]

NATO have done about as much as they can do (for better and for worse). All things considered, we can't do much more, as we seem to get ridiculed by news agencies (with good reason, we've done some f*cked up sh*t over there).

It was just a matter of time before it (the "War on Terror") would end. Can't say that I disagree with NATO's decision on the matter.

Edited December 29, 2014 by themightykovacs

[Xalteva 10]

Another mess, at the cost of many lives.

Politicians! they should be front line first, then perhaps they'd think twice.

Our western lives seem far more important, as to those living elsewhere, why that is, is anyone's guess.:confused:. 18,000 just sad :mad: :( why???

The troops that gave their lives come home in a coffin with the flag draped over, as it should be, very respectful. They have a respectful service and burial. Many of those families then start to ask why, they need a clear answer, which of course, they're never given.

However, most civilians in this type of war zone, get pushed into a hastily dug 'dust hole' in the ground with 20 other corpses, lucky to be wrapped in an old blanket, with very few words, just misery for those left behind. They also ask why and never get the answer.

I'm not against war, in some cases its all that's left. But war should be for a legitimate reason, that reason needs to be made very clear to those risking everything going over to fight and also to those that are civilians, who usually have little choice in the matter.

What "war" are you talking about ? the guys just went to there and rained shitloads of napalm bombs on people who don't even know what US is ...

[ProfTournesol 956]

What "war" are you talking about ? the guys just went to there and rained shitloads of napalm bombs on people who don't even know what US is ...

You have not much clue of how well organized Talibans are.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[TheMightyKovacs 6]

We can be respectful, guys. :)

As much as we did do awful, awful things, it was a war nonetheless(conflict is the more correct term, as the US never officially declared war).

We have killed civilians, early every standing army has. That's one of the reasons why we have the Geneva Conventions today, to help protect those who aren't able to defend themselves, and, if need be, to provide a means for courts (such as the International Criminal Court) to punish those who commit wrongful acts (well, at least most of them).

ALL countries do awful and wrongful things in times of "war" (yes, even you Canada:232:), but that is the world we live in. We have to be somewhat content with that, and try to change ourselves and the people around us for the better, not the worse.

*drops mic*

Edited December 29, 2014 by themightykovacs
Because reasons, yo.

[oxmox 73]

Taliban declare 'defeat' of U.S., allies in Afghanistan

(Reuters) - Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan on Monday declared the "defeat" of the U.S. and its allies in the 13-year-old war, a day after the coalition officially marked the end of its combat mission.

About 13,000 foreign troops, mostly Americans, will remain in the country under a new, two-year mission named "Resolute Support" that will continue the coalition's training of Afghan security forces to fight the insurgents, who have killed record numbers of Afghans this year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/29/us-afghanistan-war-idUSKBN0K70UC20141229?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

Obama's Lists: A Dubious History of Targeted Killings in Afghanistan

Combat operations in Afghanistan may be coming to an end, but a look at secret NATO documents reveals that the US and the UK were far less scrupulous in choosing targets for killing than previously believed. Drug dealers were also on the lists.

The Germans repeatedly urged their allies to remove suspects from the list. In September 2010, only 11 of the 744 targets were associated with northern Afghanistan, which the Germans controlled. "We Germans ran a stabilization mission, while the Americans conducted a war," says retired General Ramms.

The documents, she notes, also show that the "war on terror" was virtually conflated with the "war on drugs." "This is both new and extremely legally troubling," says Gibson. The classified documents could now have legal repercussions. The human rights organization Reprieve is weighing legal action against the British government.

According to an NSA document, the United Nations estimated that the Taliban was earning $300 million a year through the drug trade.

According to the NSA document, in October 2008 the NATO defense ministers made the momentous decision that drug networks would now be "legitimate targets" for ISAF troops.

In the opinion of American commanders like Bantz John Craddock, there was no need to prove that drug money was being funneled to the Taliban to declare farmers, couriers and dealers as legitimate targets of NATO strikes.

German NATO General Egon Ramms declared the order "illegal" and a violation of international law. This led to heated discussions within NATO.

"The rule of thumb was that when there was estimated collateral damage of up to 10 civilians, the ISAF commander in Kabul was to decide whether the risk was justifiable," Bodyguards, drivers and male attendants were viewed as enemy combatants, whether or not they actually were.

Only women, children and the elderly were treated as civilians.

A 2009 CIA study that addresses targeted killings of senior enemy officials worldwide reaches a bitter conclusion. Because of the Taliban's centralized but flexible leadership, as well as its egalitarian tribal structures, the targeted killings were only moderately successful in Afghanistan.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-docs-reveal-dubious-details-of-targeted-killings-in-afghanistan-a-1010358.html#ref=rss

Drone strikes counterproductive, says secret CIA report

Drone strikes and other "targeted killings" of terrorist and insurgent leaders favoured by the US and supported by Australia can strengthen extremist groups and be counterproductive, according to a secret CIA report published by WikiLeaks.

The 2009 CIA study lends support to critics of US drone strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen by warning that such operations "may increase support for the insurgents, particularly if these strikes enhance insurgent leaders' lore, if non-combatants are killed in the attacks, if legitimate or semi-legitimate politicians aligned with the insurgents are targeted, or if the government is already seen as overly repressive or violent".

Similarly, the CIA observes that Israel's "targeted-killings campaign" against Hamas and Hezbollah was of limited effectiveness owing to "decentralised command structures, compartmented leadership, strong succession planning, and deep ties to their communities, making the[se] groups highly resilient to leadership losses".

http://www.smh.com.au/world/drone-strikes-counterproductive-says-secret-cia-report-20141218-129ynq.html

Edited December 29, 2014 by oxmox

[eddo36 16]

You have not much clue of how well organized Talibans are.

Aren't many of them from different countries outside Afghanistan?

Edited December 29, 2014 by Eddo36

[ProfTournesol 956]

Aren't many of them from different countries outside Afghanistan?

But most of them are Afghan Pashtun tribesmen.

[eddo36 16]

^many flowed in from Pakistan, don't know the exact percentage, might be on Google. Anyways...

Afghanistan had a higher voter turnout than the United States this year.

In April, Afghanistan's presidential election saw about 60% of eligible voters cast a ballot. But in our country, only 36% bothered to vote in November. And keep in mind, people in Afghanistan risked their lives to vote because of threats by the Taliban.

In our country, the biggest fear if you voted was missing an episode of "Dancing With the Stars" or "Game of Thrones." Perhaps we need the people of Afghanistan to make PSA's telling us about the importance of voting?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/world/asia/early-tallies-indicating-afghan-vote-a-success.html

[ProfTournesol 956]

^many flowed in from Pakistan, don't know the exact percentage, might be on Google. Anyways...

True, but they are Pashtun tribesmen too :

[mistyronin 1181]

True, but they are Pashtun tribesmen too :

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/pubfiles/swaraaj-Pashtun-ethnic.jpg

And even ethnicity is not everything there. Each tribe, village, etc. has its own council of elders, different interests. It's a really big mess.

In fact the Taliban are not even an homogeneous group with a strict chain of command.

BTW we are talking about a country which has been almost permanently at war with major powers for more than one hundred years. Which means that they do know what they are doing.

[oxmox 73]

And even ethnicity is not everything there. Each tribe, village, etc. has its own council of elders, different interests. It's a really big mess.

In fact the Taliban are not even an homogeneous group with a strict chain of command.

BTW we are talking about a country which has been almost permanently at war with major powers for more than one hundred years. Which means that they do know what they are doing.

Exactly, they are very traditional organized in their society, very old practices in combination with their religion and some thought "to bring democracy" to solve issues...

What's Wrong With U.S. Foreign Policy?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burnett/us-foreign-policy_b_5783760.html

Afghanistan’s Failed Transformation

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/opinion/afghanistans-failed-transformation.html

Edited December 29, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

In fact, the Talibans have proved they were more effective and better organized than the ANA itself. The Talibans are mainly locals, while the coalition were seen as invaders, even if the Talibans were hated for what they have done when they ruled the country. Quite a complex region, i'm still trying to understand what is happening in Pakistan...

[mistyronin 1181]

Exactly, they have a very traditional organisation in their society, very old practices in combination with their religion and some thought "to bring democracy" to solve issues...

The main problem there is that most of the country is still in the middle ages, and some isolated villages are even living like in prehistoric. So try to convert it to a modern democracy, or even just a modern country it's a fool's errand.

I mean the literacy rate is about 28%. It's a joke even to try to explain them what democracy is.

In fact, the Talibans have proved they were more effective and better organized than the ANA itself.

Do you realize that the ANA is basically made with people from the north of the country that doesn't even speak the same language as the central and south parts of the country? Most of them illiterates and lazy with connections with the drug traffic.

[oxmox 73]

The main problem there is that most of the country is still in the middle ages, and some isolated villages are even living like in prehistoric. So try to convert it to a modern democracy, or even just a modern country it's a fool's errand.

I mean the literacy rate is about 28%. It's a joke even to try to explain them what democracy is.

Well, what can you say.

This is either the naivety of US foreign policy or maybe the intention to gain influence with their own type of strategy.

There are countries in our world which are not capable and by far not prepared to transform into western standards, some countries probably even need some kind of slight authoritarian governance.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Do you realize that the ANA is basically made with people from the north of the country.

In fact, nope. The ANA is very different from the former Northern Alliance, which has proved to be somehow effective against the Talibans (well, Under Massoud command). The ANA is mainly composed of Pashtuns, as the Talibans :

Pashtun : 43%

Tajik : 32%

Hazara: 12%

Uzbek : 10%

Other Ethnic groups : 3%

[mistyronin 1181]

One thing is the official statistics by the Afghan Gov. and the other reality.

( NBC News ) Afghan Army struggles with ethnic divisions

Officers in the U.S. Army routinely praise their Afghan partners: They know the culture, can relate to the villagers and understand regional politics.

But in southern Afghanistan, the focus of the U.S. war effort, nearly all the Afghan soldiers are foreigners too. Most don't even speak the local language. They have to communicate through interpreters hired for the Americans.

Despite ethnic quotas and recruiting drives, the Afghan army is still dominated by northern minorities who were oppressed by the Taliban. Nearly all Taliban are ethnic Pashtuns. Although many Pashtuns, the country's biggest ethnic community, are not connected to the Taliban, the rift between northerners and the southern Pashtuns runs deep.

( IPS ) Tajik Grip on Afghan Army Signals New Ethnic War

Contrary to the official portrayal of the Afghan National Army (ANA) as ethnically balanced, the latest data from U.S. sources reveal that the Tajik minority now accounts for far more of its troops than the Pashtuns, the country's largest ethnic group.

( Dawn ) Ethnic discrimination infests Afghan army, soldiers say

Edited December 29, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, i get the point. I suppose the word "dominated" means "ruled" by Northerners, such as Tajiks. I've watched French reports where you see - at the Pakistan border - ANA soldiers, most of them being Pashtuns locals, discussing with Talibans through the radio. The only one who wasn't Pashtun was the ANA commanding officer.

Edited December 29, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[eddo36 16]

The main problem there is that most of the country is still in the middle ages, and some isolated villages are even living like in prehistoric. So try to convert it to a modern democracy, or even just a modern country it's a fool's errand.

I mean the literacy rate is about 28%. It's a joke even to try to explain them what democracy is.

As stated, Afghans have a higher voter turnout than the US (60% vs 36% for this year) so it seems a double standard is present on who knows democracy better, versus who knows the MTV Music Awards.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/world/asia/early-tallies-indicating-afghan-vote-a-success.html

^source

Edited December 30, 2014 by Eddo36

[mistyronin 1181]

As stated, Afghans have a higher voter turnout than the US (60% vs 36% for this year) so it seems a double standard is present on who knows democracy better, versus who knows the MTV Music Awards.

You know that if your overlord / employer force you to vote certain party, that is not democracy. Right?

In the US no one is forced to vote. So 36% even if it's really low, it's fine.

[Xalteva 10]

You have not much clue of how well organized Talibans are.

The coalition killed many Afghan civies during that campaign ... But for you, all Afghans are Talibanis.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The coalition killed many Afghan civies during that campaign

How many were killed by Talibans ?

But for you, all Afghans are Talibanis.

Or maybe you could simply read what i posted.