Israel General

[ProfTournesol 956]

When your governement will seriously desmantle illegal colonies and really fight against his own extremists, maybe i'll try to hear what "secular" means there.

[Xalteva 10]

Israelians gathering on hills to watch Gaza getting bombed ... yeah not the same set of tone !

[maturin 12]

When your governement will seriously desmantle illegal colonies and really fight against his own extremists, maybe i'll try to hear what "secular" means there.

Thing is, Israel DID dismantle all its illegal colonies in Gaza and pulled out its military. Gazans promptly voted for Hamas.

Hamas is firing rockets on Israeli settlements for more than a decade, you don't hear about it in the news, you hear only when Israel has had it and retaliates periodically to produce a new status quo.

I do hear about rockets on the news, but I mostly just wanted to ask what you meant by "new status quo." When the heck have Israeli airstrikes ever 'produced' anything? They have never had the slightest effect on the status quo, which is utterly pointless violence on both sides, that has no impact on or effect on anything at all.

Yes, on one side you have terrorists aiming rockets at civilian population centers and on the other you have retaliatory airstrikes that try to hit the rocket-firers and not the bystanders. But the only outcome of any of this is dozens of dead Palestinian children for every dead Israeli. After enough deaths, and enough years, the motivations and loyalties become increasingly pointless, and it's just intertial terroristic violence on both sides.

You must delusional or ill-informed if you think the level of religious fanaticism of Israel and Hamas are even remotely close. Israel is a parliamentary democracy, with a currently mostly right-wing secular government (which I strongly object). It's even the first time in years that the Jewish orthodox are not in the government. Hamas is a theocratic fundamentalist Islamic organization that rules with the sharia, the Islamic law.

And yet Hamas favors a two-state solution, something "secular" Israeli right-wingers still reject. It's all in writing.

Edited July 13, 2014 by maturin

[Variable 322]

Thing is, Israel DID dismantle all its illegal colonies in Gaza and pulled out its military. Gazans promptly voted for Hamas.

Moreover, what happened in the Gaze strip after Israel evacuated? a Rocket launch pad and a terrorist heaven was formed. You would think that the Palestinians would try to encourage Israel to make more unilateral withdrawals like this one, but no, they would just terrorize any place the Israelis withdraw from. Which proves they don't care about territories, the essence of their struggle is different. Really, if Israel is answered by rockets when it withdraws, what do you expect it to conclude?

I do hear about rockets on the news, but I mostly just wanted to ask what you meant by "new status quo." When the heck have Israeli airstrikes ever 'produced' anything? They have never had the slightest effect on the status quo, which is utterly pointless violence on both sides, that has no impact on or effect on anything at all.

Don't think that I'm advocating this, I think it is pointless as you, but when you are constantly targeted, you have to do something in order to protect yourself, yes, even at the unfortunate price of lives of the enemy civilians. However, these incursions usually end with some Egyptian negotiation that leads for a fragile cease fire that lasts for as much as hopefully possible. Some quiet is not much, but still better than drips of rockets.

Yes, on one side you have terrorists aiming rockets at civilian population centers and on the other you have retaliatory airstrikes that try to hit the rocket-firers and not the bystanders. But the only outcome of any of this is dozens of dead Palestinian children for every dead Israeli. After enough deaths, and enough years, the motivations and loyalties become increasingly pointless, and it's just intertial terroristic violence on both sides.

And yet Hamas favors a two-state solution, something "secular" Israeli right-wingers still reject. It's all in writing.

Are you falling into Hamas short term propaganda tactics? If Hamas would really make a strategic shift towards the two state solution, than they would have rewritten their charter which say, among other hatered that "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors", THEN you would see Israelis changing their opinions towards the two state solution (a solution I'm personally favoring).

Edited July 13, 2014 by Variable

[maturin 12]

However, these incursions usually end with some Egyptian negotiation that leads for a fragile cease fire that lasts for as much as hopefully possible. Some quiet is not much, but still better than drips of rockets.

And the side to break the ceasefire is almost always Israel, who will shatter any long period of calm as soon as they get intelligence on a senior Hamas official and launch an airstrike. Because Israel feels no obligation to ever renounce violence as a tactic, ever. The Palestinians have to renounce violence without any reciprocal assurance; the Palestinians have to accept Israel's right to exist (no state has such a right) without the promise of any right to their own ancestral land or political representation (Israeli rightwingers would like to see them fobbed off on Egypt and Jordan), the Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state (nevermind the 1.6 million Arab Israelis) before even beginning to ask for a Palestinian state (and I mean a state, not an indian reservation: many Israeli parties are unwilling to accord even a shadow of sovereignty to such a polity).

Are you falling into Hamas short term propaganda tactics? If Hamas would really make a strategic shift towards the two state solution, than they would have rewritten their charter which say, among other hatered that "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors",

I think you've mistaken the propaganda for the actual political position. Hamas has made it quite clear that a two-state solution is the terms under which they would cease their opposition to Israel. Both sides will have to make compromises despite their loud slogans, and empty threats to destroy Israel are just smoke on the wind, in the end.

And while I'm not comparing the legitimacy of Hamas with the Israeli state as a whole, why should Hamas not threaten to destroy Israel when Israel clearly seeks to exterminate Hamas, viewing even its civilian police corps as legitimate military targets?

Moreover, what happened in the Gaze strip after Israel evacuated? a Rocket launch pad and a terrorist heaven was formed. You would think that the Palestinians would try to encourage Israel to make more unilateral withdrawals like this one, but no, they would just terrorize any place the Israelis withdraw from.

A terrorist haven 'was formed?' Formed by whom? By the terrorists that were the only political force that had any strength. Because Israel has spent generations systematically breaking down the Palestinians' ability to form any viable institutions by the totalitarian stranglehold of occupation. Gaza is ruled by terrorists because in the apartheid battlefield that Israel created in order to defend its colonial settlers, hardened fanatics were the only sort of political actors that could survive. It was a foregone conclusion that Gaza would remain violent.

And now we should remember just why it was that Israel pulled out. There was no sort of attempt to leave behind an amiable or stable or even viable neighbor. The government just wanted to re-double the settlement project in the West Bank, and Gaza was sapping too many military resources.

Which proves they don't care about territories, the essence of their struggle is different.

Bollocks. That's a vicious statement. Land is the very linchpin of Palestinian identity, given their lack of a national ideology like Zionism. The difference is that the Israelis are living on all the land they want, where the Palestinians are living in barbed wire prisons looking at the land that was stolen from them. Many Gazans are in the strip today because they were herded off into the desert after being evicted from their homes, and gunned down by border guards if they tried to return.

Edited July 14, 2014 by maturin

[Xalteva 10]

funny how you all call palestinian resistance terrorists ...

[maturin 12]

funny how you all call palestinian resistance terrorists ...

Can you name a Palestinian individual or group that engages in violent resistance, yet does not attack 'soft targets' like civilians, civilian infrastructure and population centers?

Pretty much the only violent resistance that doesn't employ the tactics of terrorism is rock-throwing by teenagers.

There is of course significant non-violent resistance, which is ignored by the media, overshadowed by the terrorists and crushed by the occupation forces that have no such scruples against employing force for political ends.

[Xalteva 10]

They don't have advanced technologies to target military facilties ,they are basically just sending missiles to towns ! they tried to infiltrate some Israelian bases lately but they got crushed ...

What kind of non violent resistance you mean ? poetry ? songs ? i am being sarcastic ... Hamas and the Islamic Jihad ,during peace time, never attacked Israel according to my memory

Edited July 14, 2014 by Xalteva

[mistyronin 1181]

They don't have advanced technologies to target military facilties ,they are basically just sending missiles to towns ! they tried to infiltrate some Israelian bases lately but they got crushed ...

But one thing doesn't deny the other.

We all agree that this is an asymmetrical warfare conflict. Obviously Palestinian groups doesn't have the same resources as Israel, not even closer. So they have to relay in another strategy, which is to attack the weakest point of Israel: their settlers, civilians, etc. Kidnaping single soldiers, shooting rockets blindly, etc.

Which basically tries to terrorize the Israel forces and population to discourage them to keep fighting, so basically that groups are indeed terrorists.

Of course that if they had the same resources as Israel, they would use conventional weapons and only strike military spots. The same as groups like ETA in Spain, IRA in its different factions in Ireland, etc.

Terrorism is mainly a way of fighting of those who lack resources and want to have a big impact.

[hellfire257 3]

And let's not forget Irgun in all of this.

[mistyronin 1181]

Search in Vice News for the last Report: Nowhere Safe in Gaza: Rockets and Revenge (Dispatch 2)

( I can't add the second video in the forum due to certain sensitive images on it, in fact only a creepy image at the beginning but... ).

It's worth to see how someone feels inside Gaza while being bombed. Edited July 14, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Xalteva 10]

He is right ! the world has gone mad :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=40R3Yb7DTzo

[mistyronin 1181]

[shay_gman 272]

" When peace comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons" – Golda Meir fourth female Prime Minister of Israel.

I don't usually response to political arguments but I feel this time I have no choice.

The amount of false data and mislead opinions in here is just too much.

So I'll sum my argument in a short few sentences for those of you how don't like to meet head on with a wall of text.

- Israel establish by UN voting in the 29th of November 1947 – we didn't taken nor concur Israel .

- Israel left Gaza completely in 2005 there Is not even a SINGLE IDF soldier in Gaza. So there in no occupation. Unless you think all Israel is occupation then read again the first item.

- Hamas is a a declared terror organization according to US, Canada and the EU union. The Hamas says out loud that he will not stop until he will kill all the Zionist in Israel.

- Hamas is making war crimes by firing rockets into densely populated area just like the war crimes that the German Nazis invented as the V1 and V2 rockets hit London back in WW2.

- Israel have the right to defend it citizens. While the Hamas uses civilians (again another war crime) as a human shield and shooting missiles from schools and mosques. The IDF alert Gaza citizens before attacking, they use "knock on roof" strategy (dropping sound only bombs to give the civilians time to evacuate) and aborting strikes if civilians are spotted the Hamas on the other hand death threaten any civilian that will leave their houses and will not serve as human shield. Don't believe me see for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI#t=41

So to make it short:

What is the different between now and WW2. Did UK, USA, Canada and all other western countries didn't bomb the hell out of Germany and other occupied countries when they were attacked by V1 and V2 rockets?! Did the western front wasn't responsible for the death of civilians?!

We here at war against a terror organization that is happy to kill civilians an organization that willing to kill his own civilians and Israel will do what it need to be done while (like all western countries) minimizing civilians' casualties, but there will be casualties in a war that we never picked.

Now let's talk to some of the bigotry and ignorance here:

The occupation:

"The legend says that when Moses saw the promised land for the first time he went down to Jordan river to clense himself before entering the promised land, after he got out of the water he found out that his robes were stolen by the Palestinians".

Now you probably saying to yourself "what a bunch of bullocks, there were no Palestinians then" and I'm happy because now we agree and we can start talking.

Israel is in the cradle of culture so a lot of nations occupy it one time or another so holding to the historical proof is irrelevant as Jews can prove they were here before, but by holding to this claim then all of the US, Canada, and south America are occupation from the native American, and Brittan should be handed to the gothics. Or the houses and lives that we were robbed from and left in Europe in the holocaust will be handed to us again.

So the best landmark in time to start and define countries is by the end of the imperialist era and after WW2. UK and France who concur this region from the Ottoman empire divided the region into countries while the Arabs usually lived in tribes not countries (as a proof you can see the breakdown of Iraq, Libya and Syria – when the dictator fall the tribes are fighting each others).

The Jews come to Israel from the Nazi's concentration camps white nothing more then their backpacks and skin on their bones (I don't want to start talking on the holocaust but if you don't know much you should really learn so it will never happen again to any nation).

Israel was a swamp area fill with malaria and there were no more the 40,000 Arabs in Israel most of them in Haifa, Akko, Jaffa and Jerusalem. The new Israelis build this country with there own hands, drying the swamps and making Israel a fertile land that it is today.

The Jews lived under the two state division by the UK mandate but after the UN declaration to establish Israel all the surrounding Arabs' countries started a war against Israel. Read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

At the end the new Israel country prevail and this is the Israel borders that we know today.

In 1967 after the 6 day war Israel concur Gaza and the west bank. Since 1990s we are trying to get out of there while keeping the Israeli's civilians safe, in the west bank we have some hope for the future as I truly believe we can all live together in peace.

The Palestinians:

People around the world think that the Palestinians suffering is due to Israel aggression the truth is it because of their leadership. Even today while Israel is being bombed from Gaza Israel provide ALL the electricity to Gaza, Israel deliver each day 180 tons of medical and general supply to Gaza even under fire. Palestinians who need medical care are transferred to Israelis' hospitals and the IDF doing whatever he can to not harm civilians by dropping leaflets and sms to the civilians before attacking.

All this while Gaza is controlled by terror organization. If only the leadership of the Palestinians would want peace they would have got it .the could have take all the money they get to build a country and not producing bombs, they could have been as Singapore is in 20 years by the help of the Israelis.

To be honest Israel is the safest place for Muslims and especially Muslims women in all over the middle east.

I like this movie it is a bit cynical as the Jews don't have any imperialistic will but it shows that indeed Israel is the best place to be a Muslim in the middle east.

If you want to debate I'll be happy to debate but keep it calm and polite. We as Israelis do not seek blood nor revenge the best proof I can give you is by looking at the relation between Germany and Israel today you might have think that after all that we lost we will hate the Germans while in fact German is one of the beloved ally of Israel – we never raised to hate nor fear we raised to love and respect human lives, Jews or not Jews – we don't call for war against civilians (as the Hamas does) and we don't celebrate death. We have Muslims, christens and Jews living here in Israel in peace where every religion is free to have it own religion freedom without discrimination of religion or gender. We have female in politics and even a prime minister, we have gays in key positions and we have the gay parade in every city every year. We have Muslims, christens and other religions in our parliament we are indeed a true and the only democratic country in the middle east and we believe and longing for peace and security.

But we do remember the black smoke raising from the chimneys in Auschwitz ,Belzec, Sobibór or Treblinka or any other Extermination camps, we remember our 6 millions brothers that have died just for being Jews and we have an army and some says nuclear bombs to assure that this genocide will never ever happen again not to us or any other religion in out territory.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Wonderful. Israelians are the good guys and Palistinian the bad guys. And the colonies ? And the numerous destabilizations of Lebanon ? And the refusal of Palestine being a state recognized by UN ? Don't tell me Israel wants peace more than the Palestinians, because that's simply not true.

Edited July 17, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[shay_gman 272]

Wonderful. And the colonies ?

Colonies are at the West Bank all the colonies from Gaza removed in the end of 2005. So it has nothing to do with the bombing from the Hamas.

The Hamas are controlling Gaza and the Palestinian government controls the west bank.

Now and this is a big now, how can you persuade the Israeli civilians that leaving the settlements in the west bank is the right thing to do when last time we left settlements we got only more terror?

Removing settlements is a difficult and hard thing to do you are creating a refugee in your country and you need a guarantee for this to really bring peace. In the middle east it something that rarely happens for example: for years Israel is to be expected to leave the Golan Hights to north for a peace with Syria, now imagine we did it and there was peace.

For how long? Can we have peace with Syria now? or we will have Islamic terror on our northern cities without the Golan Hights as a buffer zone.

The middle east is not Europe, it's unstable in the last 2 years we have seen the biggest countries here collapse to tribes - if you put your civilians in danger make sure you need to get grantee that this will work and last.

[Xalteva 10]

All i know is that since this last crisis has started 200 palstinian civs died against 1 Isareli civ ! what about those children yesterday playing on the beach ?

But nice propaganda anyway,i heard that the Israeli governement is paying for pro-israel propaganda ... maybe that's true after all!

@ProfTournesol, TF1 for the best channel of 2014 ?? :D

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, so the illegal colonies at the west bank aren't a problem ? Aren't they the proof of the power of religious extremists in Israel ?

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

@ProfTournesol, TF1 for the best channel of 2014 ?? :D

Those events in France are a shame but extremely limited however. Hope the governement will react strongly though.

[Variable 322]

Wonderful. Israelians are the good guys and Palistinian the bad guys.

No, the israelis are the bad guys!!!!

The conflict is very complex, blaming just one side feels ridiculous, right?

[shay_gman 272]

Yes 200 terrorists and civilians have died (I don't know the ration between) and that sadden me (the civilians not the terrorists).

But a lot more will die as Israel will defend itself no matter what. And it is always sad to see civilians die but this is war and Israel put effort in protecting it civilians by creating the Iron Dome and building shelters while the Hamas wasting his money on making more rockets and building shelter for his bombs not his civilians.

But what that has to do with Israel - Hamas should have stopped firing rockets two days ago on seize fire agreement - did he did that? no.

He could have not:

1. Not start this blood shed.

2. End it when it had the chance.

If Hamas hates Israel so much why don't he fight Israel and uses his 25,000 warriors as he says to fight the IDF instead of using it own civilians as human shield?!

He is acting as a dog barking from inside the fence but running to his doghouse when someone gets in - that is why Hamas is a terror organization - do you here me? Terror organization you are supporting a terror organization declared by the UN.

The colonies are a problem I agree. But we need a proof that removing them will bring peace - but they are not a proof of power of religious extremists in Israel as Israel is dictated by law and yes I would lie to you if I would say that there isn't more and more extremists on both sides as the hate and war continue but when and if someday Israel will decide that the settlements are no longer needed (as we can trust our partners for peace) then they will evacuated or they will learn to live side by side.

Edited July 17, 2014 by shay_gman

[ProfTournesol 956]

The conflict is very complex, blaming just one side feels ridiculous, right?

Absolutely. That's what i'm trying to say from the beginning. Of course Hamas is a terrorist movements, and Israel is more close to our Western way of life. But as long as BOTH sides don't really try to solve the problem, nothing will change. The Talion law has so badly failed, another way must be found, outside of the influence of Religious parties.

[shay_gman 272]

Absolutely. That's what i'm trying to say from the beginning. Of course Hamas is a terrorist movements, and Israel is more close to our Western way of life. But as long as BOTH sides don't really try to solve the problem, nothing will change. The Talion law has so badly failed, another way must be found, outside of the influence of Religious parties.

On that I agree.

I've started my first post by quote from Golda Meir and for a reason. War not only hurts the enemy but also your country. Israel is pushed to extreme with this ongoing wars more and more fundamentals raise every day. Terror should be stopped and it is time to build both countries together. But first Gaza should kick away Hamas and establish a pragmatic leadership.

[Variable 322]

And now we should remember just why it was that Israel pulled out. There was no sort of attempt to leave behind an amiable or stable or even viable neighbor. The government just wanted to re-double the settlement project in the West Bank, and Gaza was sapping too many military resources.

Untrue. The fact is, the "disengagement plan" was considered in Israel as a big success because it proved that Israel is capable to dismantle settlements also on the west bank. It lead Israeli PM Ulmert (who took over after Sharon, the previous PM died) to actually devise the new "Convergence Plan" that had most west bank settlements evacuated. The plan was scrapped because of the second Lebanon war, but the motivation to keep on unilaterally converging on the '67 lines was strong. But maybe it's good that the tides has changed, or else we might had to defend against rockets and mortar attacks from the west bank as well, as happened in Gaza.

[Xalteva 10]

Let's be honest,that agreement was a joke : Israel goes away with 200 CIVs deaths,and hamas should give up its weaponry (the only defence palestinians have for the moment) !

The truth that you insist on ignoring is that all palestinians are with Hamas ,no one forces them to be used as human shields,i'd even say that the only reason Israel is free to do whatever it wants to palestinians is the deadly silence of arab governements in the area plus the unconditional support Israel gets from the US and many other countries ...

[Variable 322]

Absolutely. That's what i'm trying to say from the beginning. Of course Hamas is a terrorist movements, and Israel is more close to our Western way of life. But as long as BOTH sides don't really try to solve the problem, nothing will change. The Talion law has so badly failed, another way must be found, outside of the influence of Religious parties.

I'm glad we agree. However, you must acknowledge the problematic Palestinian situation. A divided leadership, Hamas in Gaza and the Fatah in the west bank, which complicates the chance for a productive dialogue.