Just Three Very Indepth Suggestions and Feedback on Long Range Precision Marksmanship

[Emryse 2]

I understand BI is working on an update to marksmanship in a coming DLC, so I will offer my contribution to their effort and the community. I want to say that I know what I’m talking about, and everything I’m going to lay out is from personal and real-world experience, not some BS Hollywood movie, BS video game, or BS hearsay and mythology. I say this not to brag, but to be taken seriously.

VERY CLEAR UP FRONT: I do not want this to turn into a “wish list†without well documented explanations. I’m trying to set the tone and example with my following post.

This thread is intended to help BI developers and community modders better understand the dynamics of extreme long range precision marksmanship and aspects that will improve the marksmanship element of the game, and offer community input/guidance to that end.

Any additional posts that further the aim of the marksmanship mod being realistic, enjoyable, effective are much appreciated.

I'm also going to be clear in a.) what I wish would be changed, b.) justification of proof for the change, and c.) explanation of why this is a good change to make, and finally d.) any helpful feedback as to how the change might be implemented. I hope this 4-stage approach is helpful in giving the community and BI real ways to address marksmanship in ArmA.

Without further ado…

1. Weapon/aim sway while prone and looking through scope.

SUGGESTION: Weapon/aim sway needs to be dramatically reduced, and build up to no motion at all (after a few seconds) unless the user inputs view/aim or body movement.

REASON: When shooting from a prone supported position (as is the case with use of scoped sniper rifles at extreme long ranges greater than 1000 meters), a constant natural figure 8 sway such as when crouched or standing is not realistic and does not happen in real life to trained marksmen when prone.

EXPLANATION WHY: There are a number of reasons why this is true:

a.) Prone marksman engaging targets at +1000 meters always build a fully-supported position for their rifle. This means that they rest the rifle on:

a. A front support (bipod, tripod, bag, earth, object, etc.)

b. A rear support (monopod, bean bag, object, etc.)

b.) Because the rifle is supported both in the front and rear, it comes to a state of rest. The marksman controls the point of aim of the rifle by changing the position of the front or rear platform, thus changing the state of rest so that the aim is on target.

c.) Prone marksman behind a fully-supported rifle do not “hold†the rifle. They minimize all body contact to the rifle, so that only the following touches:

a. Shoulder is square to the stock to address recoil and bore axis shift.

b. Finger is positioned to apply even, uniform input to the trigger.

Besides these two points of contact, the marksman eliminates all other contact with the weapon system. This is precisely to prevent natural body movements like breathing, heart beats, surprise, etc., from introducing unwanted aim shift (bore axis shift) to the weapon system. This is how snipers get confirmed kills at upwards of 1800-2400 meters.

HELPFUL FEEDBACK TO MAKE CHANGE: Suggest making this change of reducing weapon/aim sway to zero (no motion) only if the following two conditions apply:

1.) The marksman is prone & rested (no physical exhaustion effect).

2.) The marksman is using a bipod or the weapon is resting on an object with a “weapon rest support†ability triggered (I hope that’s coming back too).

If these conditions are met, reduce aim sway over 3-5 seconds down to no movement. If the user moves their body or shifts their point of aim through mouse/keyboard input, introduce some slight wiggle or jitter that again reduces down to no movement over 3-5 seconds.

This video illustrates well the realistic movement aim shifts through a high-powered scope.

(guy in this video attached his camera + spotting scope to the weapon system so you could get a feel for what it looks like – only thing missing is the reticle, but the view jitter / motion is accurate; excellent marksman can reduce motion jitter further than this…)

2. Overhaul weapon reticle design for long range precision scopes.

SUGGESTION(s):

a. Keep reticle as “First Focal Plane†FFP, meaning that no matter what zoom setting the scope is at, measurement tensions and sub-tensions remain same. Google FFP to learn more. (It may be this way already, but doesn’t matter since crosshairs are arcade-ish.)

b. Reduce line width of reticle crosshairs, tensions, and sub-tensions.

REASON: Current crosshairs are too thick, and obscure the target at extreme long range.

EXPLANATION WHY: This is unrealistic and no self-respecting marksman would ever use such a reticle. You can Google easily any number of videos that show how thin a reticle actually is when set to its lowest magnification or in fixed power. Also, good reticles don’t have big thick black bars, or big round tension marks, as is current in the game. Most use either thin and thinner “hashes†or, if they use circles or diamonds, they are “holed†in the middle, so that if you place your tension on the target, you can see the target “through†the tension. (Tension/sub-tension refers to the markings along the reticle to indicate measurements. In mils, the tensions usually represent one mil, and the sub-tensions usually represent .5 of a mil.)

c. Make reticle tensions/sub-tensions measure in mils (mill radians).

REASON: Mils are metric, divisible by 10, and are most accurate / easy way to convert meter range into correct firing solution.

EXPLANATION WHY: Mils also allow for much finer adjustments to dialing or hold-off, allowing for higher first-shot or repeat shot hits. Mils can also be used accurately with meters for range estimation, so a marksman could accurately estimate range even if he does not have a range finder or laser designator.

HELPFUL FEEDBACK TO MAKE CHANGE: Here are the best ones currently available on the market. These links include dimensions, specs, etc. Hope this helps:

- HORUS H58 (https://horusvision.wordpress.com/tag/horus-reticle/)

- Gen 2 XR (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/09/new-5-25x56mm-tactical-scope-from-premier-reticles/)

- SWFA SS HD 10x42 (http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/12846/ss10x42hd.jpg)

NOTE: I understand you may not be able to use these exact reticles due to TM and patents, but you can modify them by `15%, change the name, change the look slightly, and you are absolutely in the clear. Just obey the rules of FFP, mil/mil (reticle and dial turrets on scope both measure in mils), and good useful design (.5 and 1 mil hashes, no big thick bulky lines, range estimation features, hold-off features), and you’ll be fine.

3. Change scope dialing adjustment system.

SUGGESTION(s):

a. Change scope dialing adjustments from meters to mill radians.

b. Add windage correction (horizontal) as well as the current elevation (verticle).

c. Allow user to “set zero†at a particular meter range. (E.g., I want my rifle to be zeroed at 50, 100, or 200 meters.) Then from there, the user uses scope turret adjustments (in mils) and hold-off corrections (on the scope reticle) to make the shot.

d. Create a range card (DOPE “Data Observed from Previous Engagementsâ€) that indicates amount of required clicks in mils to achieve correct distance in meters, given the zero that user has set. (E.g., on my 7.62, under normal conditions, my rifle is zeroed at 100 meters. So if I want to shoot a target at 300 meters, I need to dial up about 1.4 mils, or 14 clicks on the elevation turret.)

REASON: Everything should be in mils and meters. This makes firing solution calcs and distance measuring easiest. It is now the real world standard as well. MOA is dying as standard, as it is less precise, more difficult to work with in terms of calcs and math, etc. To make the art of determining the correct firing solution for a long range shot realistic. Furthermore, the current adjustment of only 100 meters per click is not nearly precise enough. My personal DOPE card has data for adjustments in ever 10 meters. (E.g., 200, 210, 220,… 560, 570,… 990, 1000, 1010, - all the way out to max effective range.)

EXPLANATION WHY: Simply dialing up the distance in meters to match the target distance is so Battlefield 4 – completely unrealistic and arcade-like at best. This is a realism simulator. Additional benefits are it enables higher precision for good shooters who know what they’re doing, and increases the enjoyment/reward of calculating and executing a great long distance shot. Finally, the point of long range marksmanship is to hit exactly where you shoot, the very first shot, and make extremely rapid (1-5 second) follow up shots that are on target. In the real world, this translates to being able to hit an apple at 800-1000m on the first shot (cold bore, as they say). Often, you may not have time for follow up shots (for many reasons).

HELPFUL FEEDBACK TO MAKE CHANGE: I would be more than happy to help with this. There are also some online ballistics calculators that can easily generate a meters/mils range table, in increments of 10 meters, to show the correct input to scope elevation. Even though my rifle is zeroed at 100 meters, my range table shows mil corrections from 50 meters up to 1300 meters (for my 7.62). The high-end guns in ArmA should have data tables from 50 meters up to 2400 meters, and yes – in increments of 10 meters. This isn’t hard – just needs to be something you open like your watch or clock or map, and scroll to find the right solution. I can provide some other helpful suggestions on templates for wind correction and angle correction as well, or any other kind of correction you’d be willing to implement in the game.

Here are links to some of the very best scopes available today, to use for understanding the concepts long range shooters care about in how to improve the overall long range precision scope feature of the game:

- http://www.valdada.com/scopes/tactical-scopes/4-28x50-40mm-recon-tactical-ffp-mil-mil-xtreme-x1-illum-reticle

- https://www.snipercentral.com/premier525.phtml

- http://www.opticstalk.com/review-swfa-ss-315x42-at-13-sniper-challenge_topic38917.html

To conclude, I hope this is helpful, I hope to see some of these changes made, and I thank you for the wonderful game that you’ve built and your pursuit for a better experience. Please don't hesitate to PM me if you'd like any further assistance in helping you interpret and understand how to implement long range precision rifle features that make sense in the game. I'm very much happy to help.

[Ckrauslo 12]

I have other ones, bullet spin drift, Coriolis effect, windage, heartbeat, humidity, temperature, altitude, air density.... if you done your homework to research this bit i don't see why you can't research this other bit

[Emryse 2]

I'm happy to provide some more in-depth research on these, but it honestly goes to the global support capabilities that the engine can offer, and how the developers would think through applying global dynamics to individual bullets. If you're in a scenario where there's a lot of bullets flying around, I wonder what it does to engine performance to have so many variables all dependent on highly dynamic elements of a global engine going off at the same time... although - now I'm talking way outside my technical expertise - programming. LOL - I'll stick to the technical research on long range marksmanship features.

From the list you supplied, here's my response intitially, and then I may target a few to expound on in subsequent posts.

- Coriolis drift; this becomes relevant basically at over 1000 meters. The direction of Coriolis drift depends on the firer's and target's location or latitude on the planet Earth, and the azimuth of firing. The magnitude of the drift depends on the firing and target location, azimuth, and time of flight.

- Magnus effect; the spin of the bullet creates a force acting either up or down, perpendicular to the sideways vector of the wind. In the simple case of horizontal wind, and a right hand (clockwise) direction of rotation, the Magnus effect induced pressure differences around the bullet cause a downward (wind from the right) or upward (wind from the left) force viewed from the point of firing to act on the projectile, affecting its point of impact. This is different than windage - it's an additional effect.

- bullet spin drift; this is a significant effect that causes the bullet to veer off in the direction of the rotation (clockwise or counterclockwise). This has a significant effect after 1000 meters as well.

- temperature; this is a HUGE impact on real-world accuracy. This is more to do with the effect on the entire bullet cartridge load in internal ballistics (the part of the shooting process that occurs between from the point the primer inside the bullet cartridge goes off to the point where the bullet arrives at the end of the barrel and is getter ready to exit the muzzle. What is really key is AMMO temperature. The hotter the temperature of the ammunition at the point of firing the gun, the higher the increase in the muzzle velocity of the bullet. Higher MVs equals a longer trajectory and a change in other external ballistic factors as the bullet travels down range. Smart marksman keep their ammo out in open air, but not in direct sunlight. This allows the ammo temperature to come to the same temperature as the ambient outdoor air. This way, the marksman can use the ambient temperature reading to look up the appropriate temperature MV curve and recognized the correct amount of elevation to dial in to the scope. I'll get into this more in a subsequent post - if anyone asks for it and there's interest from the developer in creating this feature.

- heartbeat; not a real feature. Like the myth about holding breath to shoot better, this is a personal preference of the shooter, and does not have a significant effect on the shooting outcome. As I stated in my original post, for extreme long range shooting, let's call that greater than 1500 meters, you are not going to do that unless you're in a very seriously stable shooting position. This means, for the serious marksman, getting into a shooting platform where your rifle system is supported both in the front and rear portions of the rifle chassis. Furthermore, as the marksman engages the rifle system, he minimizes all bodily contact with the rifle to the utmost extent possible. This means, to the extent possible, only the rear of the rifle stock is squared on the shoulder, and only the slightest amount of the hand/finger necessary to engage the trigger. Beyond this, the marksman is controlling the supporting platform, and the platform steers the rifle. The rifle rests completely still on the platform. In this way, all small inputs like breathing, heartbeat, etc., are dampened out to negligible inputs on the rifle system. In any case, what we're really talking about here is bore axis shift, and there are a lot more real world factors that affect bore axis shift. If your breathing or heartbeat are some of them, this just means you have built a poor shooting position, and need to build a better one. I can dig into this more too, if asked.

- windage; this is the amount of deflection on the bullet caused by wind. A very real effect, and actually multiple effects, since there may be one wind pattern in one branch or section of the external bullet flight, and then more sections or branches where the wind is behaving differently. Wind is a combination of both direction and speed. There are a number of different types of wind deflection factors, and I can cover those in a separate post.

- humidity; this does have an effect on muzzle velocity, how fast the bullet is moving during flight (external ballistics). Basically, the short answer here is that the higher the humidity, the faster the bullet will stay moving. Or, put more precisely, the less quickly that the bullet will slow down. Science shows us that from a density standpoint, the molecular mass of water is less than dry air. You can add up the different molecular masses found in water vs. air and you'll find this to be true. So, in high humidity levels, with more humidity, there is less air density. With less air density, there is less bullet resistance. Less bullet resistance equals higher muzzle velocity preserved, resulting in a longer distance traveled to the bullet. So, if you shoot a bullet in humidity conditions higher than those in which your rifle was zeroed, you will notice - at extreme long range - the impact is higher than normal. Lower than normal humidity equals lower than normal bullet impact.

- altitude; this actually is connected to air density. The higher the altitude, the less dense the air, because there is less air on top of the current air layer you're shooting in to weigh down on that layer. Good marksman develop multiple copies of their calculation tables to account for each inch graham change in barometric pressure change for air density (i.e., 28inG, 29, 30, etc.) In certain environments, especially mountainous regions such as featured in ArmA III, (or Afghanistan in real world), if you're on top of a mountain and shooting down at an angle, you are shooting through multiple air density layers due to that change in altitude, so again your bullet in external ballistics has numerous stages or branches in its flight where differing amounts of air density have differing effects on velocity. In this example, shooting down, the resistance to the bullet would increase at a constant rate aligned to the change in altitude, as air continues to get more dense. So, velocity would be increasingly lost.

There's some other factors that could be considered too:

- bullet velocity translating into impact energy

- angle of shooting, as in the example above with air density, if you are shooting at an angle (either up or down) greater than 10 degrees from a horizontal 90 degree plane, you need to account for angle correction. This is because there is a difference between the true line of sight and the horizontal line of flight that the bullet suffers the effect of gravity. It's a triangle straight out of trig, and you need to calc the cosign. Basically, whatever the cosign value is (say it's .92), you multiply that by the true line of sight distance, and that gets you your actual distance the bullet is impacted by gravity. This is the value you would use to reference your chart for elevation adjustment on your scope. In either case, whether shooting at an up or down angle, you actually need less elevation than the true line of sight ranging would suggest. This principle seems to be somewhat working already in the game, but I'm not sure if that was by intent.

OK - I think that's enough - looking for more interest from folks and feedback. Basically, the three initial elements that I chose to address in the original post are because I think those stand to gain the most tremendous improvement in the overall realm of marksmanship realism and experience for the DLC. If we could get a bit of feedback from extremely programming-knowledgeable folks or staff on what global factors the engine can use, then we'd be able to prioritize which internal, transition, external, and terminal ballistics effects are worth simulating, and their priority from greatest to least real effect on bullet travel.

[artisanal 22]

PIP scope anyone ? :P

[13islucky 10]

PIP scope anyone ? :P

I think that's a nice proof of concept, but honestly I wouldn't play with scopes like that. Perhaps with more detailed and closer to the face scopes I would, but I fear for my frames.

[gatordev 216]

Emyrse,

A very well thought out list with ways to improve the game. I think those three things would certainly make it better. One bone of contention... To say that mils is more refined/accurate isn't necessarily true. 1/4 MOA turrets (or god help you, 1/8 MOA turrets) have the potential to give you a more refined adjustment. How much that matters? I'd argue not much, but just putting that out there.

All that said, I personally do everything in mils because it's what I initially learned on, so if everything in game was mils, I'd be happy.

[froggyluv 2130]

PIP scope anyone ? :P

I have that test mission -whenever I move the gun the PiP sights stays were it was first oriented completely detaching itself from the gun :/

[Emryse 2]

I'll give you the 1/8th turrets, no doubt, gatordev. But God help you, indeed!

[the_demongod 31]

The bit about the reducing body contact with the rifle is great, but only really applies to actual sniper rifles. Such features should only be available to snipers, not to marksmen and other units. A bipod is perfectly fine for their requirement of accuracy. Everything else sounds great.

[-Coulum- 35]

I don't agree that prone accuracy should be better. Instead I think it should be possible to further increase that accuracy with bipods. But prone without bipods is fine as is right now imo.

The other two suggestions, I agree with totally. I am looking forward to what the devs hope to achieve in the marksman dlc.

[Ckrauslo 12]

I'm happy to provide some more in-depth research on these, but it honestly goes to the global support capabilities that the engine can offer, and how the developers would think through applying global dynamics to individual bullets. If you're in a scenario where there's a lot of bullets flying around, I wonder what it does to engine performance to have so many variables all dependent on highly dynamic elements of a global engine going off at the same time... although - now I'm talking way outside my technical expertise - programming. LOL - I'll stick to the technical research on long range marksmanship features.

From the list you supplied, here's my response intitially, and then I may target a few to expound on in subsequent posts.

- Coriolis drift; this becomes relevant basically at over 1000 meters. The direction of Coriolis drift depends on the firer's and target's location or latitude on the planet Earth, and the azimuth of firing. The magnitude of the drift depends on the firing and target location, azimuth, and time of flight.

- Magnus effect; the spin of the bullet creates a force acting either up or down, perpendicular to the sideways vector of the wind. In the simple case of horizontal wind, and a right hand (clockwise) direction of rotation, the Magnus effect induced pressure differences around the bullet cause a downward (wind from the right) or upward (wind from the left) force viewed from the point of firing to act on the projectile, affecting its point of impact. This is different than windage - it's an additional effect.

- bullet spin drift; this is a significant effect that causes the bullet to veer off in the direction of the rotation (clockwise or counterclockwise). This has a significant effect after 1000 meters as well.

- temperature; this is a HUGE impact on real-world accuracy. This is more to do with the effect on the entire bullet cartridge load in internal ballistics (the part of the shooting process that occurs between from the point the primer inside the bullet cartridge goes off to the point where the bullet arrives at the end of the barrel and is getter ready to exit the muzzle. What is really key is AMMO temperature. The hotter the temperature of the ammunition at the point of firing the gun, the higher the increase in the muzzle velocity of the bullet. Higher MVs equals a longer trajectory and a change in other external ballistic factors as the bullet travels down range. Smart marksman keep their ammo out in open air, but not in direct sunlight. This allows the ammo temperature to come to the same temperature as the ambient outdoor air. This way, the marksman can use the ambient temperature reading to look up the appropriate temperature MV curve and recognized the correct amount of elevation to dial in to the scope. I'll get into this more in a subsequent post - if anyone asks for it and there's interest from the developer in creating this feature.

- heartbeat; not a real feature. Like the myth about holding breath to shoot better, this is a personal preference of the shooter, and does not have a significant effect on the shooting outcome. As I stated in my original post, for extreme long range shooting, let's call that greater than 1500 meters, you are not going to do that unless you're in a very seriously stable shooting position. This means, for the serious marksman, getting into a shooting platform where your rifle system is supported both in the front and rear portions of the rifle chassis. Furthermore, as the marksman engages the rifle system, he minimizes all bodily contact with the rifle to the utmost extent possible. This means, to the extent possible, only the rear of the rifle stock is squared on the shoulder, and only the slightest amount of the hand/finger necessary to engage the trigger. Beyond this, the marksman is controlling the supporting platform, and the platform steers the rifle. The rifle rests completely still on the platform. In this way, all small inputs like breathing, heartbeat, etc., are dampened out to negligible inputs on the rifle system. In any case, what we're really talking about here is bore axis shift, and there are a lot more real world factors that affect bore axis shift. If your breathing or heartbeat are some of them, this just means you have built a poor shooting position, and need to build a better one. I can dig into this more too, if asked.

- windage; this is the amount of deflection on the bullet caused by wind. A very real effect, and actually multiple effects, since there may be one wind pattern in one branch or section of the external bullet flight, and then more sections or branches where the wind is behaving differently. Wind is a combination of both direction and speed. There are a number of different types of wind deflection factors, and I can cover those in a separate post.

- humidity; this does have an effect on muzzle velocity, how fast the bullet is moving during flight (external ballistics). Basically, the short answer here is that the higher the humidity, the faster the bullet will stay moving. Or, put more precisely, the less quickly that the bullet will slow down. Science shows us that from a density standpoint, the molecular mass of water is less than dry air. You can add up the different molecular masses found in water vs. air and you'll find this to be true. So, in high humidity levels, with more humidity, there is less air density. With less air density, there is less bullet resistance. Less bullet resistance equals higher muzzle velocity preserved, resulting in a longer distance traveled to the bullet. So, if you shoot a bullet in humidity conditions higher than those in which your rifle was zeroed, you will notice - at extreme long range - the impact is higher than normal. Lower than normal humidity equals lower than normal bullet impact.

- altitude; this actually is connected to air density. The higher the altitude, the less dense the air, because there is less air on top of the current air layer you're shooting in to weigh down on that layer. Good marksman develop multiple copies of their calculation tables to account for each inch graham change in barometric pressure change for air density (i.e., 28inG, 29, 30, etc.) In certain environments, especially mountainous regions such as featured in ArmA III, (or Afghanistan in real world), if you're on top of a mountain and shooting down at an angle, you are shooting through multiple air density layers due to that change in altitude, so again your bullet in external ballistics has numerous stages or branches in its flight where differing amounts of air density have differing effects on velocity. In this example, shooting down, the resistance to the bullet would increase at a constant rate aligned to the change in altitude, as air continues to get more dense. So, velocity would be increasingly lost.

There's some other factors that could be considered too:

- bullet velocity translating into impact energy

- angle of shooting, as in the example above with air density, if you are shooting at an angle (either up or down) greater than 10 degrees from a horizontal 90 degree plane, you need to account for angle correction. This is because there is a difference between the true line of sight and the horizontal line of flight that the bullet suffers the effect of gravity. It's a triangle straight out of trig, and you need to calc the cosign. Basically, whatever the cosign value is (say it's .92), you multiply that by the true line of sight distance, and that gets you your actual distance the bullet is impacted by gravity. This is the value you would use to reference your chart for elevation adjustment on your scope. In either case, whether shooting at an up or down angle, you actually need less elevation than the true line of sight ranging would suggest. This principle seems to be somewhat working already in the game, but I'm not sure if that was by intent.

OK - I think that's enough - looking for more interest from folks and feedback. Basically, the three initial elements that I chose to address in the original post are because I think those stand to gain the most tremendous improvement in the overall realm of marksmanship realism and experience for the DLC. If we could get a bit of feedback from extremely programming-knowledgeable folks or staff on what global factors the engine can use, then we'd be able to prioritize which internal, transition, external, and terminal ballistics effects are worth simulating, and their priority from greatest to least real effect on bullet travel.

Mate i studied this in the army no need to tell me what it is...i think a dlc meant for marksmen should have all this, and in scout sniper course we were thought to shoot between the heart beat

[Emryse 2]

I don't agree that prone accuracy should be better. Instead I think it should be possible to further increase that accuracy with bipods. But prone without bipods is fine as is right now imo.

Coulum,

You may refer to my original post, in which I specified that the enhanced stability and removal of "random motion" should be conditional, with two required conditions triggered:

- prone stance

- weapons platform support enabled, such as bipod or weapon rest.

In all other cases - prone without support, or non-prone stance with support, the current system or a new system with some amount of instability should remain, as you say.

---------- Post added at 16:34 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

Mate i studied this in the army no need to tell me what it is...i think a dlc meant for marksmen should have all this, and in scout sniper course we were thought to shoot between the heart beat

Ckrauslo, not sure what you're intending to mean by the first part of this; I'm certainly not supplying this info only for you - but I'm glad that you're knowledgeable as well and hope you can make some further contribution to the discussion.

As for your point on the heartbeat...

Yes, many schools taught this. Many schools also taught to shoot while holding breath. Or to shoot while slightly expelling breath. Many schools also taught that an increase in humidity translates into a drop in bullet impact, all other things being equal.

Yes, many schools have taught many things. And many times - they are wrong.

The art of long range precision marksmanship has improved dramatically over the past 5 years, even. In that time, modern study of ballistics, rifle system characteristics, weather characteristics, and human interface factors has increased both in scope and depth of knowledge and proven concepts. As another example, even the concept of how / when to clean one's rifle for precision marksmanship has changed, for a number of reasons.

My whole point here is that - just because the military or a particular school says something is so, or trains a certain way, doesn't mean they are right. Therefore, my goal is to present accurate information that is modern, up to date with current proven knowledge of advanced precision marksmanship concepts and techniques.

In the case of heartbeat management - I simply feel that this concept has been proven through modern real-world study, testing, and application to:

a.) have no effect to results for extreme long range distances +1000 meters in the prone position when using modern shooting stability building methods, and

b.) have negligible effect on results for precision shooting at distances between 100 and 1000 meters where many factors are negligible anyways...

On the other hand, I have seen the heartbeat dynamic factored into many games poorly, in an arcade-like fashion, with no application to realistic methods or results.

So... this is why I have offered my opinion that this isn't something we ought to mess with. But - it's just my opinion, and like noses, everyone has one! :-)

Anyways - thanks for your feedback.

[-Coulum- 35]

Coulum,

You may refer to my original post, in which I specified that the enhanced stability and removal of "random motion" should be conditional, with two required conditions triggered:

- prone stance

- weapons platform support enabled, such as bipod or weapon rest.

In all other cases - prone without support, or non-prone stance with support, the current system or a new system with some amount of instability should remain, as you say.

Ah I think I misread your oringial post. Yes I agree with you. And I have a feeling, that BI does to. I hope.

Also, I think there is much room for improvement when it comes to recoil (especially when prone) and keeping sight picture during that recoil. Right now it is far to easier to spam shots rather than try to line up one accurate hit, because recoil is so easy to handle.

Edited July 5, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Leg 10]

add anal stimulation to the sniper!

[gatordev 216]

I'll give you the 1/8th turrets, no doubt, gatordev. But God help you, indeed!

Keep in mind, in the big picture, I think we're on the same page, but... I just wanted to differentiate the fact that 1/4 MOA (.26175" per click) is actually more refined than a .1 mil adjustment (.36") at 100 yards. Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? Probably not, and I'm sure I wouldn't be any more accurate shooting a MOA turret than a mil turret, just being OCD about the facts.

Coulum,

On the other hand, I have seen the heartbeat dynamic factored into many games poorly, in an arcade-like fashion, with no application to realistic methods or results.

It can also depend on what you're shooting. Trying to drive an AR for precision shooting probably isn't going to be as productive as a bolt gun. Drive it too hard and you can start to inject issues with things just like your heartbeat. There was a former scout sniper next to me in a SPR class I took that was initially holding his SPR-ish 5.56 gun like he would his bolt gun and was having all kinds of reticule problems due to his heart beat. Once he relaxed, things came back. However, none of that negates your point...over modeling in games can be silly.

Also, I think there is much room for improvement when it comes to recoil (especially when prone) and keeping sight picture during that recoil. Right now it is far to easier to spam shots rather than try to line up one accurate hit, because recoil is so easy to handle.

I'd argue it's very easy to keep your reticule on target after a shot (at least with a .30 cal or less round) when prone out to a good distance. Seeing round impact/trace on steel out to 700-800+ yards/meters is normal if you've mounted the gun correctly. I actually prefer prone to bench shooting if I'm just plinking because I can control the recoil easier/more comfortably. Then again, I only shoot with a bipod and rest...no contraption to lock the gun down. But that's what I enjoy.

[-Coulum- 35]

I'd argue it's very easy to keep your reticule on target after a shot (at least with a .30 cal or less round) when prone out to a good distance. Seeing round impact/trace on steel out to 700-800+ yards/meters is normal if you've mounted the gun correctly. I actually prefer prone to bench shooting if I'm just plinking because I can control the recoil easier/more comfortably. Then again, I only shoot with a bipod and rest...no contraption to lock the gun down. But that's what I enjoy.

Hmm. I really can't say I have a huge amount of experience or skill when it comes to long rang shooting. But even at 400m I find that after a shot, with high magnifcation, it takes a bit (ie less than a second) of time to get back on target. Sometimes I even loose sight of my target completely (only for a fraction of a second) because of the way the scope focuses the light/scope shadow. I only use a bipod and sandbag at the shoulder. And this is only with 556. Its not that the recoil isn't controllable. But it is just enough to take me off target. At longer ranges the slightest of movements can result in a miss.

The way you put it however: "it's very easy to keep your reticule on target after a shot" makes it sound as if you can just open up full auto on a target and get a perfect grouping. Which sounds a bit unreasonable. Maybe I am taking you a bit too literally?

In game right now, I find that in order to kill them, it is often more effective to just spam many shots at an enemy at long range and get a couple of quick and lucky hits, rather than to take the time to line up a precision shots. This is definitely contrary to my experience in real life where shooting quickly at long range just results in many many misses, because of how sensitive a process it is. I also find in real life it helps to have someone spotting you. In arma spotters are not necessary. I do not like that.

[twisted 127]

this thread has some interesting informstion and its got a lot technical detail, some of which seems a bit suspect. for instance things like breathing not affecting scope sway, or the recoil of the rifle not disturbing your sight picture are pure fiction. it can be minimised quite a lot, but that takes time and setup plus unless it is clamped down your breathing will affect it.

love the link to that youtube channel though. some fine shooting done there. and his methid is clear - Here's a look at Bobby Lee's 1275 Yard shot thru the spotting scope. Visit http://www.longrangeshots.com for more videos and information.

(different video from the site) shows the setup. Edited July 6, 2014 by twisted

[Emryse 2]

this thread has some interesting informstion and its got a lot technical detail, some of which seems a bit suspect. for instance things like breathing not affecting scope sway, or the recoil of the rifle not disturbing your sight picture are pure fiction. it can be minimised quite a lot, but that takes time and setup plus unless it is clamped down your breathing will affect it.

Here's a few more videos showing the jitter vs. sway, to illustrate the point that it's different. I'm not saying necessarily that this is even a good demonstration for how to properly do it - I'm trying to point out the current sway model doesn't accurately portray reality.

http://youtu.be/RMWT5wtIRoc (this guy may not now what he's doing - still not a sway, but jitter)

(this one shows clearly a very stable position -guy knows what he's doing - long range. Notice how he's minimizing contact with the system, and has the system resting on his supports. He's not driving the system with his body.)

Finally, this. It explains it perfectly, way better than I can. Rock steady position building - no movement, no heartbeat, no breathing, no nothing. Skip to about 5 minutes or 6 minutes if you want to get to the point and proof.

As to the scope recoil, this is really dependent on a number of factors:

- your recoil management ability

- the caliber of the weapon

- your eye discipline (can you keep your eye from involuntary blinking from the shot concussion)

But - bottom line, up even into high calibers, trained marksman absolutely can still see the shot through the scope. In fact, many very good marksman not only can see the shot through the scope, but can see the "wake" of the bullet as it passes through the air, on its way to the target. If you've never seen bullet wake, here's a video of that:

Now of course, a spotter is going to have a much better capability to see both the bullet wake or trace, and the impact of the bullet - this is why a spotter is certainly helpful. I think there's some interesting ways that BIS could make the shooter-spotter concept work even with AI as your spotter backup.

[gatordev 216]

Hmm. I really can't say I have a huge amount of experience or skill when it comes to long rang shooting. But even at 400m I find that after a shot, with high magnifcation, it takes a bit (ie less than a second) of time to get back on target. Sometimes I even loose sight of my target completely (only for a fraction of a second) because of the way the scope focuses the light/scope shadow. I only use a bipod and sandbag at the shoulder. And this is only with 556. Its not that the recoil isn't controllable. But it is just enough to take me off target. At longer ranges the slightest of movements can result in a miss.

The way you put it however: "it's very easy to keep your reticule on target after a shot" makes it sound as if you can just open up full auto on a target and get a perfect grouping. Which sounds a bit unreasonable. Maybe I am taking you a bit too literally?

In game right now, I find that in order to kill them, it is often more effective to just spam many shots at an enemy at long range and get a couple of quick and lucky hits, rather than to take the time to line up a precision shots. This is definitely contrary to my experience in real life where shooting quickly at long range just results in many many misses, because of how sensitive a process it is. I also find in real life it helps to have someone spotting you. In arma spotters are not necessary. I do not like that.

I agree, in game, the built in "error" of the built can make shooting more rounds quickly more effective sometimes than it should be. Hopefully the DLC will fix that.

That said, I think you're taking me a little too literally, and really, it's about mounting the gun correctly in order to manage the recoil. Also, I find it infinitely easier to manage the recoil prone than against a barricade, but I've seen some pretty good shooters able to work barricades very well. A common method you'll see people use when shooting prone is to angle the body off the gun so (let's say they're right handed), their legs are pointing about 30-45 degrees off the axis of the barrel of the gun to the left. This makes managing the recoil harder as the energy is going to hit the shooter's body at an angle and cause the reticule to move an an angular motion.

The best way to mange the recoil is to get behind the gun directly with your legs spread, heels as flat as you can. That way the shock impulse goes directly down your spine and into your legs, which are giving an equal support. Again, this is just with a bipod and a rear rest of some kind (I use a bean bag, but depending on the elevation of the shot, you can just use your weak hand in a pinch). You will see some minor "rise and fall" with breathing, but you can utilize whatever technique you subscribe to to counter that (I shoot at the bottom, at the natural rest).

How well does this work? Here's an example of a drill I've done in a class that really made sure you got behind the gun (this was with a SPR shooting 5.56)... You use the same idea as a VTAC 1-5 target array, with three targets, only these are at 300m (or whatever you want to use). You start shooting left to right, each target getting one more shot than the last. When you get to the far right, you go back to the left. Total round count is 15, so it's one shot on tgt1, two shots on tgt2, three on tgt3, four shots on tgt2 and 5 shots on tgt1. When you get the hang of managing the recoil, it's a really fun drill, and you can usually see the hit on the steel target before the "ring" of the hit makes it back to your ears.

this thread has some interesting informstion and its got a lot technical detail, some of which seems a bit suspect. for instance things like breathing not affecting scope sway, or the recoil of the rifle not disturbing your sight picture are pure fiction. it can be minimised quite a lot, but that takes time and setup plus unless it is clamped down your breathing will affect it.

I agree breathing will affect reticule movement, but we're talking a few tenths of a mil and it's mostly up and down. Assuming you're not breathing hard, of course. But keeping the reticule on the target is not pure fiction. You might not be able to keep it dead center, but you can watch the hits and/or the trace (as Emryse mentioned) just fine if you're properly supported. FWIW, I've shot out to 900 and some yards sitting Indian style with my rifle on a barricade and could quite clearly see my shot...miss. But seriously, on the second shot, I could see the hit, and that was with my SR-25, which isn't exactly the most precise shooter compared to a bolt gun (or even a Larue).

I will say this all assumes you have the conditions where getting prone is possible. In actual operational situations, obviously things get more "dynamic," and shooting off of a barricade (window, rock wall, etc) is probably much more likely, but the basic principles still apply (mount the gun properly and manage the recoil). Add a suppressor (or a really good brake) and it certainly helps more.

Edited July 6, 2014 by gatordev

[Emryse 2]

I agree breathing will affect reticule movement, but we're talking a few tenths of a mil and it's mostly up and down. Assuming you're not breathing hard, of course.

I'm trying to be very clear about when breathing *should not* affect reticle motion.

IF you are in a fully proper prone position, and,

IF you have both a proper front and proper rear support upon which the rifle rests, and,

IF you are minimizing your contact with the rifle system to simply positioning your shoulder square behind the rifle, and the minimal amount of your hand needed to engage the trigger,

THEN breathing/heartbeat should absolutely not be an issue. This is just a proven fact. If you're trying to achieve a rock-solid prone dual support shooting position and you're finding your breathing is still affecting your point of aim - then you're doing it wrong, and need to rebuild your position properly.

Now - if you're not in the prone position. If you're using more of your body to control some portion of the gun (i.e., your non-trigger hand to hold some part of the rifle system. Then, breathing could and will absolutely play a role.

I'm just trying to be very clear about some effective conditions that BIS can apply to provide the rule-based triggering for a very stable, extreme long range marksman prone rock-solid shooting position.

I'm all for having other positions (like sitting cross-legged with sling support), or shooting from a kneeling or standing position against a barricade or rest surface, or shooting with front support but not rear support. In those cases - breathe away.

Even then - the appropriate approach that has been concurred upon now by most modern marksman professionals is to continue normal, even breathing patterns, and take shots in some consistent interval familiar and effective for you. In that case, for these situations I agree with BIS already teased position that they're going to re-doctor the current sway patterns to be a bit more realistic. That should work.

[Ckrauslo 12]

Coulum,

You may refer to my original post, in which I specified that the enhanced stability and removal of "random motion" should be conditional, with two required conditions triggered:

- prone stance

- weapons platform support enabled, such as bipod or weapon rest.

In all other cases - prone without support, or non-prone stance with support, the current system or a new system with some amount of instability should remain, as you say.

---------- Post added at 16:34 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

Ckrauslo, not sure what you're intending to mean by the first part of this; I'm certainly not supplying this info only for you - but I'm glad that you're knowledgeable as well and hope you can make some further contribution to the discussion.

As for your point on the heartbeat...

Yes, many schools taught this. Many schools also taught to shoot while holding breath. Or to shoot while slightly expelling breath. Many schools also taught that an increase in humidity translates into a drop in bullet impact, all other things being equal.

Yes, many schools have taught many things. And many times - they are wrong.

The art of long range precision marksmanship has improved dramatically over the past 5 years, even. In that time, modern study of ballistics, rifle system characteristics, weather characteristics, and human interface factors has increased both in scope and depth of knowledge and proven concepts. As another example, even the concept of how / when to clean one's rifle for precision marksmanship has changed, for a number of reasons.

My whole point here is that - just because the military or a particular school says something is so, or trains a certain way, doesn't mean they are right. Therefore, my goal is to present accurate information that is modern, up to date with current proven knowledge of advanced precision marksmanship concepts and techniques.

In the case of heartbeat management - I simply feel that this concept has been proven through modern real-world study, testing, and application to:

a.) have no effect to results for extreme long range distances +1000 meters in the prone position when using modern shooting stability building methods, and

b.) have negligible effect on results for precision shooting at distances between 100 and 1000 meters where many factors are negligible anyways...

On the other hand, I have seen the heartbeat dynamic factored into many games poorly, in an arcade-like fashion, with no application to realistic methods or results.

So... this is why I have offered my opinion that this isn't something we ought to mess with. But - it's just my opinion, and like noses, everyone has one! :-)

Anyways - thanks for your feedback.

I don't know where the between heartbeats where proven wrong, or holding breath...even laying down, with bi-pods or laying your gun on top of the back pack... you still have more stability holding you're breath, your body still moves specially the thoracic region and bit of the shoulder will have some movement, that can pass few millimeter of the target, there been few studies on this, done using proper measuring equipment's and by people highly qualified, but well as you said everyone have different opinion, i keep doing my thing you do yours

[gatordev 216]

I'm trying to be very clear about when breathing *should not* affect reticle motion.

IF you are in a fully proper prone position, and,

IF you have both a proper front and proper rear support upon which the rifle rests, and,

IF you are minimizing your contact with the rifle system to simply positioning your shoulder square behind the rifle, and the minimal amount of your hand needed to engage the trigger,

THEN breathing/heartbeat should absolutely not be an issue. This is just a proven fact.

What you describe just isn't a practical position in a tactical precision environment. For bench shooting, I get it, but I think it's important to make sure that the discussion is how it would be used in the game environment, and in real life, prone just isn't feasible all that often, let alone a bench shooting type of position. And if you're shooting an auto-loader (especially the SR-25, which can be finicky), it's impractical to be "minimizing your contact with the rifle system to simply positioning your shoulder square behind the rifle" because you need to load the bipod. The M107 is similar (note: I have zero trigger time behind a M107, but have done several deployments and training evolutions with it so I'm going off what the gunners have said).

Emryse, hopefully you don't take this as an attack on you, as I think you've got some great suggestions here, just giving some feedback. I just haven't seen folks from a school house saying that there should be no reticule movement, nor have they taught that. It's understood that it has to be managed, as you said, with whatever you find effective.

I don't know where the between heartbeats where proven wrong, or holding breath...even laying down, with bi-pods or laying your gun on top of the back pack... you still have more stability holding you're breath, your body still moves specially the thoracic region and bit of the shoulder will have some movement, that can pass few millimeter of the target, there been few studies on this, done using proper measuring equipment's and by people highly qualified, but well as you said everyone have different opinion, i keep doing my thing you do yours

Right or wrong, holding your breath is not what seems to be taught in the American school houses, it's interesting to hear that you're saying that's what's taught elsewhere. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. Again, not saying either is right or wrong, just interesting to hear the differences.

[Ckrauslo 12]

It's not like breathing in and holding the breath, it's more like exhaling and having a few seconds with a more stable stance for shooting, but you can do this when the environment is more quiet, when in a intense fire fight, if the marksman is pinned down he will do a more quick firing... the Brazilian scout sniper training ( curso de caçadores) usually sent the graduates to other countries like US to learn more

[Emryse 2]

What you describe just isn't a practical position in a tactical precision environment. For bench shooting, I get it, but I think it's important to make sure that the discussion is how it would be used in the game environment,

I'm not talking about getting in a "bench shooting type position". The dual-supported prone position is a tactical position, and can be employed any time the prone position is available for use. To be clear, from the start of this thread, we're not talking bench rest shooting.

and in real life, prone just isn't feasible all that often, let alone a bench shooting type of position.

Going prone for shooting and building a solid shooting position is absolutely feasible if you've trained and come prepared with the right gear.

Building a stable shooting position from prone does not take a tremendous amount of effort. If you have a bipod or pack for your front rest, and a portable rear support (monopod, "spike", bean back, sand-sock), you are good to go, and can get in prone position quite quickly. And if a marksman doesn't have the time to set up in that position, then that's a dynamic of the engagement / environment / timing - both in the game and real life, the shooter or leader decides how to employ marksman capability.

In other words, we need to separate the context of "when" shooting prone is appropriate and "how" to appropriately shoot in the prone.

So far, my advice has outlined three distinct prone shooting "positions" that could be coded into the game:

1.) Prone - dual supported. This uses the three conditional statements I've already specified, requires 10-20 seconds to build.

Disadvantages of this position: takes time to build, very narrow aim tracking without need to rebuild position

Advantages of this position: no aim shift, least possible bore-axis shift, breathing / body inputs negated

2.) Prone - single front supported (bi-pod or rest of some kind). This would use two of the three conditional statements specified above. Requires much less time to build (2-10 seconds).

Disadvantages of this position: slight aim shift due to less stability and body factors (breathing, etc.), increased bore axis shift due to less stability

Advantages of this position: more rapid engagement of target, increased aim tracking without need to adjust position

3.) Prone - no rest support. Requires virtually no time to build position.

Disadvantages of this position: Most aim shift, most bore-axis shift, least stability

Advantages of this position: most rapid engagement of target, most aim tracking potential with fluid position adjustments

With this approach, people could have the choice. I think the rear support should be either a gun attachment or a carry item. For the carry item, you could have to "scroll select" deploying it, and it could drop it on the ground. Then, so long as you remain in your prone position when you dropped it, the build up of the position would commence. If you moved, then you'd have to "scroll select" build position again. If you get up to leave, you need to "scroll select pick up" the rear support object off the ground.

I'm all about making the process of shooting dual supported be as realistic as in real life as possible - and I think it absolutely can be done. I am just surprised by the amount of feedback saying it can't. I have first-hand experience doing it, so I know it can.

And if you're shooting an auto-loader (especially the SR-25, which can be finicky), it's impractical to be "minimizing your contact with the rifle system to simply positioning your shoulder square behind the rifle" because you need to load the bipod. The M107 is similar (note: I have zero trigger time behind a M107, but have done several deployments and training evolutions with it so I'm going off what the gunners have said).

While it's true that some bipods are not equal to others, and certain rifle systems are different than others, the reality is that the military infantry deals with a lot of factors that they can't effectively control like special ops folks can. Loading the bipod is done because usually the structure of the bipod isn't quality enough to produce consistent results otherwise. Also, where the bipod is positioned, and how well the rifle chasis is put together have an effect on the barrel harmonics, which in turn dictates the consistency of the bore axis shift due to barrel whip as the gun is fired. Gatordev you prob know this, so I'm stating it for others who may be interested.

My point is that in a dual supported prone position, even with loading pressure on the bipod, the gun "rests" on the supports, and the supports coupled with proper "minimal body contact" and "square placement of stock behind shoulder" will result in negating of body effects such as breathing and heartbeat to inconsequential inputs. The caliber of the rifle really doesn't matter. Driving the rifle using these concepts does.

Emryse, hopefully you don't take this as an attack on you, as I think you've got some great suggestions here, just giving some feedback. I just haven't seen folks from a school house saying that there should be no reticule movement, nor have they taught that. It's understood that it has to be managed, as you said, with whatever you find effective.

I certainly don't - and I'm glad for your contribution and inputs. I can only speak from my training and experience, as you and others have. This gives BIS the ability to make the best choices for the game.

Right or wrong, holding your breath is not what seems to be taught in the American school houses, it's interesting to hear that you're saying that's what's taught elsewhere. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. Again, not saying either is right or wrong, just interesting to hear the differences.

The holding or slightly controlled delay of breathing used to be much more universal. Modern training I've seen and my own experience has taught that the marksman is much more likely to forget to properly breathe, or focus on proper breathing and forget to do something else important. Simply ignoring the issue of breathing altogether, and breathing naturally and calmly, has resulted, for many folks myself included, with optimal results. But of course, there's something to be said for shooting comfortable too. So sometimes when it gets personal, great shooters do unconventional things. It's all about the results.

When it comes to breathing, I'll be happy as long as BIS doesn't introduce some BS "push a button to hold breathe, slowing down time, sharpening the senses, and increasing zoom while stabalizing shot"... oh wait. :cool:

[gatordev 216]

It's not like breathing in and holding the breath, it's more like exhaling and having a few seconds with a more stable stance for shooting, but you can do this when the environment is more quiet, when in a intense fire fight, if the marksman is pinned down he will do a more quick firing... the Brazilian scout sniper training ( curso de caçadores) usually sent the graduates to other countries like US to learn more

Ahh, okay, I think the internet (and maybe a difference in language) was part of the confusion. What you describe as "exhaling and having a few seconds..." was what I meant by natural point of rest. I'm probably using the wrong term and maybe Emryse can correct me, but I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'm not talking about getting in a "bench shooting type position". The dual-supported prone position is a tactical position, and can be employed any time the prone position is available for use. To be clear, from the start of this thread, we're not talking bench rest shooting.

Going prone for shooting and building a solid shooting position is absolutely feasible if you've trained and come prepared with the right gear.

Building a stable shooting position from prone does not take a tremendous amount of effort. If you have a bipod or pack for your front rest, and a portable rear support (monopod, "spike", bean back, sand-sock), you are good to go, and can get in prone position quite quickly. And if a marksman doesn't have the time to set up in that position, then that's a dynamic of the engagement / environment / timing - both in the game and real life, the shooter or leader decides how to employ marksman capability.

In other words, we need to separate the context of "when" shooting prone is appropriate and "how" to appropriately shoot in the prone.

So far, my advice has outlined three distinct prone shooting "positions" that could be coded into the game:

1.) Prone - dual supported. This uses the three conditional statements I've already specified, requires 10-20 seconds to build.

Disadvantages of this position: takes time to build, very narrow aim tracking without need to rebuild position

Advantages of this position: no aim shift, least possible bore-axis shift, breathing / body inputs negated

2.) Prone - single front supported (bi-pod or rest of some kind). This would use two of the three conditional statements specified above. Requires much less time to build (2-10 seconds).

Disadvantages of this position: slight aim shift due to less stability and body factors (breathing, etc.), increased bore axis shift due to less stability

Advantages of this position: more rapid engagement of target, increased aim tracking without need to adjust position

3.) Prone - no rest support. Requires virtually no time to build position.

Disadvantages of this position: Most aim shift, most bore-axis shift, least stability

Advantages of this position: most rapid engagement of target, most aim tracking potential with fluid position adjustments

With this approach, people could have the choice. I think the rear support should be either a gun attachment or a carry item. For the carry item, you could have to "scroll select" deploying it, and it could drop it on the ground. Then, so long as you remain in your prone position when you dropped it, the build up of the position would commence. If you moved, then you'd have to "scroll select" build position again. If you get up to leave, you need to "scroll select pick up" the rear support object off the ground.

I'm all about making the process of shooting dual supported be as realistic as in real life as possible - and I think it absolutely can be done. I am just surprised by the amount of feedback saying it can't. I have first-hand experience doing it, so I know it can.

Gotcha. I understand what you're saying and I'm all about having options (why I love the OFP series). So a quick caveat... I come at this from three perspectives:

1. An enthusiast who has taken a few courses and enjoys the challenges of tactical precision (along with other disciplines of) shooting on a one way range.

2. Getting some instruction and talking with a couple of guys (certainly not "a lot") who have been part of OEF/OIF, including a guy who then went to the Marine school house before getting out (if I say Magpul, I'm guessing you have an idea on who I'm talking about).

3. Doing real world operations with precision gunners in unconventional positions (in the back of a helo).

So when I say this, that's where my head is at. From what I've both witnessed operationally as well as talking to real world dudes who've been there (in far more scary places than I've been), the basic takeaway is that getting prone and shooting prone is something that happens a very small percentage of the time. Usually it's either sitting or standing while using some sort of barricade (or bungie cord/rope) as support. That's all I meant when I said getting prone may not be practical.

HOWEVER (!), having all that ability in the prone is certainly welcome ingame, and hopefully will make it into the DLC. And in that sense, again, great ideas in your initial post.