Just Three Very Indepth Suggestions and Feedback on Long Range Precision Marksmanship

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Hmm. I really can't say I have a huge amount of experience or skill when it comes to long rang shooting. But even at 400m I find that after a shot, with high magnifcation, it takes a bit (ie less than a second) of time to get back on target. Sometimes I even loose sight of my target completely (only for a fraction of a second) because of the way the scope focuses the light/scope shadow. I only use a bipod and sandbag at the shoulder. And this is only with 556. Its not that the recoil isn't controllable. But it is just enough to take me off target. At longer ranges the slightest of movements can result in a miss.

The way you put it however: "it's very easy to keep your reticule on target after a shot" makes it sound as if you can just open up full auto on a target and get a perfect grouping. Which sounds a bit unreasonable. Maybe I am taking you a bit too literally?

In game right now, I find that in order to kill them, it is often more effective to just spam many shots at an enemy at long range and get a couple of quick and lucky hits, rather than to take the time to line up a precision shots. This is definitely contrary to my experience in real life where shooting quickly at long range just results in many many misses, because of how sensitive a process it is. I also find in real life it helps to have someone spotting you. In arma spotters are not necessary. I do not like that.

Recoil is a pretty varied effect. For example, Mac over at the MilitaryArms channel was talking about his long range setup and how a muzzle break he just installed allowed him to see his shots out to 1000 yards, where as before he could not. That was I believe on a 6.5 rifle.

Recoil can and will be impacted by stance, caliber (but not in a linear fashion, you can't just say that x caliber is y% bigger so the recoil is also y% greater), barrel quality, temp of various elements of the platform, barrel length, muzzle device, etc. Firearms are pretty complex and because of how extreme the reactions and mechanics involved are, small variables can have large impacts on others. But it's absolutely possible to see your rounds hitting with a bolt gun at long ranges, depending on the situation and platform.

When it isn't, that's where spotters come in handy.

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

What you describe just isn't a practical position in a tactical precision environment. For bench shooting, I get it, but I think it's important to make sure that the discussion is how it would be used in the game environment, and in real life, prone just isn't feasible all that often, let alone a bench shooting type of position. And if you're shooting an auto-loader (especially the SR-25, which can be finicky), it's impractical to be "minimizing your contact with the rifle system to simply positioning your shoulder square behind the rifle" because you need to load the bipod. The M107 is similar (note: I have zero trigger time behind a M107, but have done several deployments and training evolutions with it so I'm going off what the gunners have said).

Emryse, hopefully you don't take this as an attack on you, as I think you've got some great suggestions here, just giving some feedback. I just haven't seen folks from a school house saying that there should be no reticule movement, nor have they taught that. It's understood that it has to be managed, as you said, with whatever you find effective.

Right or wrong, holding your breath is not what seems to be taught in the American school houses, it's interesting to hear that you're saying that's what's taught elsewhere. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. Again, not saying either is right or wrong, just interesting to hear the differences.

For a DM or a unit on the move, I can see where you would think setup isn't viable, but actual sniper units often have the opportunity to fully set up. Even in an urban environment, snipers often set up in windows will use a table from the building to get an extremely stable platform. Modern snipers engage in a pretty diverse range of operations. Sometimes they have time to get a very stable platform, specifically set up for a handful of shots. Other times they need a more dynamic position. And with a weapon that has a monopod on the stock and a good bipod and it doesn't exactly take long to get a very stable platform to fire from. I think the OPs point is to give marksmen more options, but it seems to be that people think he means that every situation should be the same. Quite the opposite seems to be what Emryse is trying to communicate. Sniping is a diverse field. More options that allow more appropriate mechanics for more situations would be a good thing, and the things he talks about are absolutely real.

Right now, sniping is pretty lacking beyond the DM level, which seems to be what most people are thinking of, rather than more traditional (if you can call them that these days) sniping units.

I am by no means a sniping expert but I have some ideas on how they could implement some of the stuff you're talking about in game, specifically adjustments and creating a stable platform.

Essentially, it'd be nice to have a way to set up a bipod, which allows the shooter to scan for threats, engage in a more dynamic situation, etc. Then from there another action would allow for the shooter to stabilize the platform. This would make sway minimal, bring up detailed adjustment controls, and change how aiming works. Essentially it'd make for very slow, small movements that would remain in place once made. And the adjustments could be made exactly the way you say, either through key bindings, or by bringing up a cursor to interact with onscreen elements.

Another nice thing to see would be a sort of tracer on precision rounds, basically a very faint, transparent white tracer effect to simulate the wake of the bullet. It'd have to be very subtle and only occur during the day which could be tricky to pull off but it would be a nice touch if done right (ie not bright and shiny, not really visible to anyone but the shooter/spotter).

Some additional bullet mechanics would be nice as well, as it's pretty lacking right now, but I think this stuff would have to be limited pretty significantly. Things like cold bore accuracy would be a welcome addition, better wind effects would be welcome, but I doubt we need to start taking the curvature of the Earth or anything into account, as it is still ArmA.

Obviously we can't expect pure simulation from ArmA. There has to be A) a balance for gameplay and B) a realistic expectation of what the engine can do.

I would be super stoked if the Marksman DLC incorporated more precision shooting mechanics. We need more challenging roles to fill that require significant practice and skill to succeed in in my opinion.

Edited July 9, 2014 by MordeaniisChaos

[Emryse 2]

MordeaniisChaos, thanks so much for your response and helping me clarify some of the points. Agreed it would be awesome if there was a way to show bullet wake.

FYI for everyone so far, and to further support the demonstration of dual-supported precision shooting from prone, here's a video demonstrating the concept. This gal nails a bottle of water at 951 yards. Quite impressive.

For those who may be impatient, skip to around 5 minutes to see the way she's positioned. Also, a little bit later, video shows her actually shooting. Notice the minimal contact with rifle system.

Also - this video has an excellent shot of the bullet wake, and slows it down a ton so you can see it well. Very cool.

Thanks again to everyone who's contributed so far.

[gatordev 219]

I understand what you guys are saying. And again, OFP/ArmA is all about options, so allowing prone/well supported shooting along with DM shooting would be the panacea.

And good point about brakes. My SR-25 became much more enjoyable once I put a SF brake on it. Looking forward to when my SF can gets out of jail to tame it a bit more.