Laser Designation and Laser Guided Bombs from Jets

[remifenta 10]

Okay so further testing reveals that the Independent faction cannot mark targets using any sort of marking device including the following:

Darter

Kabil

IR grenade

Strider

Hand held laser designator

I have not yet tested the SDV.

Do also keep in mind that the Buzzard can still lock onto laser targets created by Opfor and Blufor.

I'll continue testing.

nice videos Neptune, always good to see CAS pilots who have even a ballpark idea on how to conduct CAS properly. It helps boost immersion immensely rather then watching a Wipeout come in at some stupid angle spamming bombs and guns everywhere only to clip a tree after htti g a group of friendlies. Aggrevating to say the least.

Spanish,

I think laser designation in general is a broken feature. Try laser-guided artillery, and lase the target with a plane UAV. The laser-guided artillery simply will not hit even remotely close, even if normal HE rounds will hit relatively closeby. If HE rounds impact closer to a designated map in the artillery computer than laser-guided artillery sent to the same position from the same artillery, then the laser guidance is at fault. And this is exactly the case.

Above testing was done on the NATO Showcase.

[JamesSaga 1]

I tested the laser-guided artillery shell recently and found that it landed perfectly even when placed a ways away from the target.

Will test tonight.

[all3n 1]

i absolutely can not aquire a lock from the wipeout, i see the red square appear on the radar, i know the lase is there, i will fly at 400-500km/h at 1500m, i see no square appearing, i used both the "next target" command as well as the "lock/zoom" but i cant get anything to happen

[Crielaard 435]

Fly out 4000m and try again.

[JamesSaga 1]

am having some trouble getting the spotter to lase a target.

Have put him on the hill above stratos air base with a tank on the runway (have tried with him in and out of a group)

[spanishsurfer 58]

Keep trying, try different altitudes and make sure you have plenty of range from the target, it def works.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Okay so this is what I confirmed last night via MP testing:

The independent faction cannot be used to laser designate a target for either its own faction or for anyone else. This includes the following methods:

Hand held laser designator

Strider commanders seat

SDV gunners seat

Darter UAV

Kabil UAV

Hand thrown IR grenades - regardless of which teams IR grenade it is.

The target does appear however it either appears as neutral (grey square) or as a friendly in some instances. This means that the target cannot be locked on to via the Next Target key and instead must be locked onto via the Lock and Zoom key when looking directly at the target, a fair challenge when 4000m away. :)

I will update my ticket on the tracker later when i get home.

[spanishsurfer 58]

Good to know Imperator, but who's asking about the independent faction? Kind of a derail from the main topic.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Thread topic: Laser Designation and Laser Guided Bombs.

That's about as on topic as you get.

[subs17 9]

So after a few minutes with Slim, I came to a conclusion that in order for a bomb to hit on the mark you need to be below a certain airspeed, below a certain altitude, and have a solid lock onto the target. BIS, what are these numbers? What's the max altitude and airspeed I can fly the jets in order to hit a target being lazed? To me, 500-600m in order to accurately hit a target is just nonsense, this isn't WWI. Today's bombs are dropped from 50-60,000ft....Why do I have to fly so low to hit stuff with a laze? If i'm wrong please let me know, but I' really like to know the capabilities of the jets a bit better.

Thanks!

PS Neptune where did you get that PDF? If you made it how did you come up with those #'s?

-SS

No 50-60000ft is quite incorrect because the LGB IRL would not see the laser spot. LGBs are dropped from much lower altitudes IRL because of the sensor that tracks the laser.

Optimum altitude for an effective LGB attack is from medium altitude (20,000 - 30,000 ft), increasing the aircraft's vulnerability to surface-to-air missile (SAM) attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser-guided_bomb

Although it states 20-30k ft it is I believe below 20 000ft is optimal for LGBs. The question has to be asked of the devs first if this is a futuristic weapons system then it should have the same or better capabilities of a modern JDAM. So the effective range should be max range 15NM for such a weapon and perhaps better targeting system for such a weapon so ideally the pilots should have an HSD of some sort(horizontal situation display) and this would help the pilot know exactly where they are in relation to the tgt, a decent targeting pod to pick up the tgts with perhaps with some features such as slew to steerpoint automatically that way the pilot as he approaches the steerpoint just flicks on the pod view and already its looking at the tgt area from there just move the cross hairs onto the tgt and lock.

Other things about Laser guided bombs is the actual guidance is not until the last few seconds(8seconds) before impact so when the weapon is released it should already be heading in the direction of the tgt like a normal freefall bomb would so for that we need decent HUD cues and for that you want a CCRP type setup in the HUD. You could use all the above for missiles to with the same mode although HUD modes and a targeting pod mode are always different from CCRP modes. Lastly to the devs please change the speed/height to imperial readings for the height/speed to be in ft/knots so we can use similar attack profiles to real life aircraft. And also with decent modelling of such things will greatly improve the effectiveness of the aircraft in the CAS role.

---------- Post added at 16:05 ---------- Previous post was at 15:53 ----------

To confirm your findings using math...

At 3km view distance the theoretical maximum altitude for release is 2121 meters. But you'll have 1.0 second respond time at the most to find lock and release(flying 450km/h).

Bringing it down to 1500 meters gives you 5 seconds to find and lock the target and another 5 seconds in what I like to call the 'release cone'.

Addition:

You can also try to setup a 5 degree dive angle at will keep you in the 'cone' a little bit longer wich makes it easier aswell. (Or allows you to fly faster with the same 'response time'. To be more exact...

It gives you about 100 meters extra room in the 'release cone' thus you will be able to fly an extra 100km/h for the same response time.

Utilizing these numbers even futher you could get a better standoff by flying at 2000 meters with 10 degree dive angle.

And watta you know...! These are numbers that should be VERY familliar IF you have carefully read my manual bombing guide

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=24728

Your aimpoint is then 6km behind the target. So put a personal waypoint there (shift click on map)

Start at 2700 meters in altitude, turn on your final attack heading 4000 metes from the target (putting your self 10km away from the aimpoint) and put your flight path marker on your waypoint. Your aircraft will now slice through the 'cone' at optimal range and altitude.

*disclaimer** the waypoint elevates with terrain!

;)

Manual bombing will make CAS very unrealistic so hopefully the devs will make more realistic and accurate delivery cues for the HUD such as CCRP/CCIP/DTOSS. BTW you cannot use tables for manual bombing in an aircraft with metric values for tables in imperial.(you would have to convert) The other thing is the effect of wind on the bomb so that's why the manual sight in aircraft has pipper depression/elevation/left and right.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

I made it my self based on my earlier level-manual release table (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11221288/3Cdo/Manual%20level%20Bombing.pdf) some calculations and several hours of testing.

Wait for a video to prove the numbers work. ;-)

---------- Post added at 07:51 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------

And...

Here is the video

Little over 5000m with a slant range of about 7.5km Which gives us a release angle of about 45 degrees.

Nice video but notice how you have no HUD cues to release the bomb so this is what we need.

So you have a line in the HUD to fly towards and a count down in distance and in time. You push the bomb release button and hold and when it reaches the best point to release the bomb the bombs drop automatically. If the devs added a flight planner which added steerpoints to the aircrafts nav or the ability to place them on the map you could hit buildings with just normal free fall/JDAMs bombs in CCRP without the need for a laser just using GPS from the aircraft.

To make the aircraft even fancier and more fun the CCIP sight could have the same ability so you dive at the tgt, place the CCIP pipper on the tgt, hold the weapon release button, keep everything centred and the bombs would come off automatically at the right time to hit the tgt. And flying outside the right conditions would result in the bomb not being released. This mode is handy for low level retarded bomb delivery because you don't need to dive at the tgt at all just fly over it. And this would work without requiring the devs model Air-Ground radar although it assumes the aircraft has one as that is how these modes work or they use a laser range finder or radar altimeter. Dropping bombs in these modes is fun but it is like firing a rifle since you have to have the wings level etc to be accurate.(even worse if you are using a manual delivery mode of some sort).