Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Holy shit. Can they really do that? Welcome to the Soviet Union?

Well they have invaded and annexed Crimea. Why couldn't they do that? It's Putin's loot.

But yeah, this last year he seems to be increasing his authoritarian practises.

[oxmox 73]

Ukraine has indeed been under Russian strong influence, since Russia invaded the Crimean Khanate in 1783.

( and betrayed the inhabitants with the fake Treaty of Pereyaslav ). You have to also remember that the wars between Ukraine and Russia have been happening for more than 500 years.

Hell, even Ukraine devastated Moscow in 1570. Russo-Crimean Wars list

The Crimean Tatars' invasions of Russia....between the forces of Muscovy and the Tatars of the Crimean Khanate.

The Crimean Khanate was a Turco-Mongol vassal state of the Ottoman Empire during 1478 to 1774.

So? They were not Ukrainians-Crimeans? Were they from Mars?

Obviously the majority of locals in the Crimean Khanate were the Tatars, until Stalin deport most of them.

http://www.sras.org/img/0753fb0f806207b305773d6f383812ca.jpg

Of course I had to read about it aswell again and you picked only a small part of the history around the territory, but lets get an overview and learn more about parts of the history....(source wikipedia)

Overview

In the Middle Ages, the area became the key center of East Slavic culture (the first east slavic state), as epitomized by the powerful state of Kievan Rus'. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory of the present day Ukraine was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Ottoman Empire, Austro-Hungary, and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but Ukraine remained otherwise divided until its consolidation into a Soviet republic in the 20th century, becoming an independent state only in 1991.

The origin of todays Ukraine, Russia and Belorussia lies in the first east slavic state - Kievan Rus.

The Kievan Rus existed from the late 9th to 13th century.

Ethnic Background

According to the earliest East Slavic record, the Primary Chronicle, the Rus' were a group of Varangians who lived, along with other groups like Swedes and Gutes, on the other side of the Baltic Sea, in Scandinavia and as far as the land of the English and the French.[7] The Varangians were first expelled, then invited to rule the warring Slavic and Finnic tribes of Novgorod.

The Rus?'? (Slavic: ????; Greek: ???) are an ancient people who gave their name to the lands of Russia and Belarus.

According to the most prevalent theory, the name Rus?'?, like the Finnish name for Sweden (Ruotsi).

The unified ethnic called "Old Russian Tribes" was formed by the east slavic tribes. After the Inavsion of the Mongols in the 13th century and the following political seperation of the "Old Russian People" it did lead to a divergent developement of the culture and the formation of Russians, White-Russians and Ukrainians (Little Russians).

Mongol invasion of Rus'

The Mongol Empire invaded Kievan Rus' in the 13th century, destroying numerous cities, including Ryazan, Kolomna, Moscow, Vladimir, and Kiev, part of the Mongol invasion of Europe.

The Crimean Khanat

The descendants of the Crimean Khanats were i.a. Ghengis Khan (mongoles/golden horde).

The Crimean Khanate originated in the early 15th century when certain clans of the Golden Horde Empire ceased their nomadic life in the Desht-i Kipchak (Kypchak Steppes of today's Ukraine and southern Russia) and decided to make Crimea their yurt (homeland)

In the following centuries The Crimeans (crimean tartars) frequently mounted raids into the Danubian principalities, Poland-Lithuania, and Muscovy to enslave people. For a long time, until the early 18th century, the khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East..

The Crimean Khanate was later a protectorate of the Ottoman Empire and like we all know the expansion of the muslims in Europe did reach up to Vienna which did lead to the Great Turkish War and more wars against the Turks later on. Around 11 Russian-Turk wars did happening.

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

The map you did post shows aswell the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth which did exist from 1569-1795, most of the territory what we call Ukraine nowadays was a part of it.

A national identity of the Ukraine did arise in the late 19th century........

Edited November 19, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Russia demands guarantees from Nato

Russia has called for "a 100% guarantee that no-one would think about Ukraine joining Nato", President Vladimir Putin's spokesman has told the BBC.

(Reuters) Russia urges Kiev to talk directly to separatists

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Wednesday Ukraine's leaders must talk directly to separatists in the east of the country and should not treat Moscow as a party to the conflict.

Lavrov suggested that despite the rift, Russia's "partners" accept that the Crimea peninsula, annexed by Russia in March, would not be returned to Ukraine's control.

"Crimea is an inseparable part of Russia and we carry full responsibility for it," Lavrov said.

(Reuters) Ukraine rules out direct talks with separatists

Russia urged Ukraine's leaders on Wednesday to talk directly to separatists to end the conflict in the east, but Kiev rejected the call and told Moscow to stop "playing games" aimed at legitimizing "terrorists".

(New York Times) A German Diplomat’s Bold Hopes for Russia Fade With Ukraine

When Frank-Walter Steinmeier became Germany’s foreign minister for the second time almost a year ago, he was looking for Berlin to assume an expanded international role, commensurate with its economic clout and stability.

Mr. Steinmeier was very much the man in the middle this week, embodying the continued tension in Germany over how aggressively to assert itself on the world stage and how forcefully to confront Mr. Putin over Russia’s machinations in Ukraine.

Edited November 19, 2014 by surpher

[ProfTournesol 956]

So, if i try to sum it up :

(1) Donbass revolted against Kiev with Putin's help

(2) Kiev kicked separatists ass, with the help of pro kiev locals and volunteers

(3) Russia sent paratroopers and heavy weaponry and defeated Kiev troops

(4) Sort of truce, mainly broken in Donetsk airport surroundings

(5) And now ? What's next ?

[mistyronin 1181]

A national identity of the Ukraine did arise in the late 19th century........

In fact national identities as we understand them today were born in the 19th century.

But as an ethnic group ( meaning common Culture, History, etc. ) the citizens of the territory that forms today Ukraine have fight for hundreds of years against the Russian / Moscow group.

Unlike the idea of Novorossiya which was a political region more than cultural; that now Putin tries to manipulate to justify his expansionist policies.

[ProfTournesol 956]

A national identity of the Ukraine did arise in the late 19th century........

I could argue it was more or less the same with Germany (born in 1870) and Italy.

[mistyronin 1181]

I could argue it was more or less the same with Germany (born in 1870) and Italy.

Also Spain, Belgium, USA, etc.

[oxmox 73]

In fact national identities as we understand them today were born in the 19th century.

But as an ethnic group ( meaning common Culture, History, etc. ) the citizens of the territory that forms today Ukraine have fight for hundreds of years against the Russian / Moscow group.

Unlike the idea of Novorossiya which was a political region more than cultural; that now Putin tries to manipulate to justify his expansionist policies.

The territory was "hundreds of years" under the polish crown, I just wonder what ethnical conflicts did exists against Russia over hundreds of years. Iam pretty sure there were of course tensions since that was normal in this time in whole Europe. Especially Poland itself was devided serveral times in the 18th century by Prussia, Austria and Russia.

Napoleon did play a big role in Europe aswell in the first part of the 19th century.

yeah....the 19th century did bring in a lot of changes in Europe.

The USA is a quiete young nation and founded 1776.

Spain did exist already a very long time before germany, germany was founded 1871.

Belgium was a part of the Netherlands and declared independence in the early 19th century.

Edited November 19, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

Also Spain, Belgium, USA, etc.

Spain, no. Belgium and USA yes.

[mistyronin 1181]

Spain, no.

Well, at least was the intention of the Absolutist Spanish Borbonic Monarchy.

Although is true that some may say that the Spanish national identity was born during the fascist Franco Dictatorship ( 1939-1975 ) or even a good amount would say that it has never existed.

But the more or less official version is that it was born in the 1800s.

Spain did exist already a very long time before germany, germany was founded 1871.

What??? Spanish as a country was officially born as a "nation-state" in 1812. And even that can be argued.

What is clear is that the Spanish national identity was born in late 1800s and along the 20th century. And even a lot of Spanish would have strong arguments of if Spain it's really a nation.

Edited November 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Well, at least was the intention of the Absolutist Spanish Borbonic Monarchy.

Although is true that some may say that the Spanish national identity was born during the fascist Franco Dictatorship ( 1939-1975 ) or even a good amount would say that it has never existed.

But the more or less official version is that it was born in the late 1800s.

mmmh...Well, Spain did belong to the imperial nations way before the 1800s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire

[mistyronin 1181]

mmmh...Well, Spain did belong to the imperial nations way before the 1800s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire

The Spanish Empire was a group of territories that shared a king, but by no means culture, nation nor almost anything. In fact, those territories had borders, tolls between them, own armies, own political systems, own coin, different languages, etc.

Read your own link:

The Spanish Empire (Spanish: Imperio español) comprised territories and colonies administered by the Spanish Crown in Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania.

Even nowadays you can find really distinctive nations/cultures inside the territory of Spain.

The idea of Spain as a nation was born in the 1800s to try to get rid of the different cultures inside Spain, that idea had only strong followers during the Franco fascist dictatorship.

Edited November 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

The Spanish Empire was a group of territories that shared a king, but by no means culture, nation nor almost anything. In fact, those territories had borders, tolls between them, own armies, own political systems, own coin, different languages, etc.

Read your own link:

Even nowadays you can find really distinctive nations/cultures inside the territory of Spain.

The idea of Spain as a nation was born in the 1800s to try to get rid of the different cultures inside Spain, that idea had only strong followers during the Franco fascist dictatorship.

I dont know the spanish history so exactly.

The whole sentences you write remember me more on the Holy Roman Empire.

The US for example was created as a nation by different cultures and people.

The spanish people itself are mixed like for example the people from Italy, due to all kind of influences.

Well, neverless Spain as a whole was know a lot earlier than the country germany and played a major role in world history. Maybe the term nation was not the right one, but I would not know what definition to take when it comes to i.e. Great Britain, France and Spain as the majore player during the imperial ages before the 19th century.

But this is interesting what you wrote....are you from Spain ?

[mistyronin 1181]

But this is interesting what you wrote....are you from Spain ?

I've lived in Spain for a bunch of years in different cities ( due to work ); I also studied there the first years of a University degree in history and geography ( I didn't finished it ). So I know first hand the information.

Spain as a whole existed only after the 18-19th century, and it is not a nation but a multi-national country. In fact even nowadays in the Spanish Constitution says that Spain is formed by nationalities and regions. Even historical texts from one hundred years ago talk about the "Españas" ( the different Spains, referring to the different nations inside the Spanish Crown )

You have to understand the Spanish Empire a bit like a union of countries like for instance the European Union but ruled under one king; some would call that a Composite monarchy. But it was funny because the king ruled in an absolutist way in Kingdoms like Castille, and in the Crown of Aragon which itself was a confederation of countries the king had to bow and negotiate with each and every country ( Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Mallorca, Catalonian principate, etc. ), in Navarre it was a mixture of both, etc.

BTW you can also see that different nations in the nowadays Seal of Spain ( in the top left quarter the Kingdom of Castile, in the right the Kingdom of Leon, in the lower left the Crown of Aragon and the right the Kingdom of Navarre, in the center the Borbonic seal and in the bottom the Kingdom of Granada.

http://www.royalhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Map_Spain.jpg (109 kB)

That's also reflected nowadays in the different rights that certain nations inside the country have ( for example Navarra and Euskadi have full control of their economy, while in Catalonia has certain special rights, etc. ).

You can check different historical documents like the Nueva Planta decrees, that were meant to destroy the different countries and create a full absolutist uniform country like France.

Edited November 19, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[Tonci87 163]

Very interesting Vice report

Qustion: What aircraft does the Ukrainian military use as bombers? SU-25 obviously, but what else?

[Xalteva 10]

Very interesting Vice report

Qustion: What aircraft does the Ukrainian military use as bombers? SU-25 obviously, but what else?

That made a lot of things clear to me ...

[Tonci87 163]

That made a lot of things clear to me ...

Oh please enlighten us.

[oxmox 73]

Very interesting Vice report

Qustion: What aircraft does the Ukrainian military use as bombers? SU-25 obviously, but what else?

These are still speculations, but...

The thoughts and provided informations in this video sound quiete plausible and the tragedy of the flight MH17 was probably caused accidently.

"The fact that an civilian airplane was flying over a war zone sounds already irresponsible, ukrainian Jets did bombing targets like shown in the video and therefore anti-air protection was ordered. Radar showed fighter Jets close to the MH17 and they got targeted but actually the civilian airplane got hit - and here is another question and speculation: was the Jet targeted or the MH17 and if the Jet was the target why or how did the rocket change the target."

The whole incident was not just a military event, it is highly political charged and therfore someone should be not surprised that people deny any knowledge or even spread disinformations. Therefore it could be that this case will never be truly solved.

@MistyRonin

Thank you, very nice read !

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't buy at all the story of the SU hiding behind the civilian planes, which looks like a lame excuse from the pro Russian side. What's more plausible is that they shot the MH17 thinking it was an Ukrainian transport plane, as at that time several were shot down.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Basically, if you walk trough a marked minefield and get blown to bits, it's most likely your fault. Plus the Malaysian airlines have been pretty lose with their planes recently, so I blame them.

[Tonci87 163]

And let´s not forget this: since this is a war zone civilian planes who pass over it will only do so at very high altitudes (10k+). The claim by that Separatist fighter that she saw a military aircraft hiding behind a civilian one is quite frankly absurd. You have a very hard time seeing an aircraft at that height, yet alone telling what kind of aircraft it is.

The interview with the old cossak leader is quite telling. He gets really uncomfortable when asked about who shot down the plane...

[mistyronin 1181]

I see three points.

The main culprit is who shoot the plane down, that's clear and must be punished.

The Ukrainian Air Force may have been hiding after civilian planes, which is not a moral strategy, but there's not much you can blame them for that. Specially because at that time no one expected that the pro-Russians had weapon systems that could reach high heights; that's also way commercial flights were still flying.

About Malaysian Airlines, as I said before no one could imagine that the pro-Russians could have that advanced systems ( that Russia would procure them ), so they kept flying as during Iraq and many others. But I think the airline learned the lesson.

Basically, if you walk trough a marked minefield and get blown to bits, it's most likely your fault. Plus the Malaysian airlines have been pretty lose with their planes recently, so I blame them.

It was not a marked minefield. No one could ever imagine that the Pro-Russians would have advanced Russian AA systems...

Here we can blame Putin for providing them with that kind of weaponry, specially because Putin even lied about it.

[beastcat 14]

[aleksadragutin 9]

And let´s not forget this: since this is a war zone civilian planes who pass over it will only do so at very high altitudes (10k+). The claim by that Separatist fighter that she saw a military aircraft hiding behind a civilian one is quite frankly absurd. You have a very hard time seeing an aircraft at that height, yet alone telling what kind of aircraft it is.

The interview with the old cossak leader is quite telling. He gets really uncomfortable when asked about who shot down the plane...

Maybe the plane was between the liner and the AA, at say 5000m.

[Tonci87 163]

Maybe the plane was between the liner and the AA, at say 5000m.

Well then it clearly is not hiding behind it.....