Ukraine General

[Tonci87 163]

Gysi.....Sadly that guy goes into stupid mode as soon as someone mentions fashists. A great portion of the german left party bought Putins bullshit about fashists in Kiev and is therefore very much in favour of Russia failing to realize that the most fashists are on Putins side.

I didn´t criticize Dwardens bit of news because I was missing some more background info about what exactly I was seeing there. Maybe you noticed that I don´t comment on Surphers videos as well if they are in Russian and I don´t really understand what is going on there. It is however perfectly clear that the Rebels are receiving Weapons and supplies from Russia. If they were using just captured stuff they would have run out of ammo already, especially for their artillery.

I know if a piece of news is good quality if it doesn´t try to bullshit me. During this whole Crysis Russian news has come up again and again with nonsense a 10 year old could debunk. Like that nice example you posted where Russia claims that the Ukrainians wanted to shoot Putins plane. :rolleyes:

[surpher 1]

Furthermore i'd want to ask you, tonci why do you criticise me for bringing "noncredible news" sources?

You really need to ask?

I just found this video... maidan riot police, no weapons. Are attacked with a hand grenade.

Watch at own risk (no gore however).

http://youtu.be/j7f3HKQ1i30?list=UUGasNCvV96gooDwbqYUHJbg

If you check out the twitter account from the link that dwarden posted

It's completely obvious that the author of that twitter account absolutely hates russia/putin and shows pictures which can't be identified without doubt as to what he claims them to be. How do you expect non-biased reports from such persons. (Needless to mention but obviously those kind of persons exist on both sides - before you criticise me of accusing ukraine social media parts only :rolleyes:)

See post #6291, original source of the image is Alexander Kotz a journo who works for Komsomolskaya Pravda.

Fresh batch of grad rockets delivered to Donetsk via train.

Source: Image was taken here.

Edited November 7, 2014 by surpher

[x3kj 1247]

You really need to ask?

I already aknowledged that i was wrong and apologized, i should have done more research.

Gysi.....Sadly that guy goes into stupid mode as soon as someone mentions fashists.

Ignore the part about fascists. He is leftwing, yes. But the rest of the presentation is objective and very much true. A community of international law breakers blaming an international law breaker... That's how it is. And Gysi is not the only one. I already posted about Willy Wimmer. But also Helmudt Schmidt and Henry Kissinger stated similar things. They don't have to fear for their career anymore, they can say whatever they really think.

And yes i do believe that separatists receive russian support. But i still call out images that could be from anywhere. You know, a picture of a Cargo Truck with ammo rounds an a tent can be from anywhere in ukraine. No matter where the author of the post is, who says he shot the pic himself. And it would not be the first time in history if it was a deceit (i dont have proof for it beeing one). Is it wrong to question the authenticy of the pictures?

How do you know it's good quality? When it fits your view?

I know if a piece of news is good quality if it doesn´t try to bullshit me.

q.e.d.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Fennek

[beastcat 14]

Iam not going into the discussion about the MH17 incident, but non public/military sattelites are probably capable of zooming in very close.

Yeah, I dont think that any satellite will see the different types of uniforms. I saw an aerial image with a 25mm resolution and you could see the different clothes of people. http://aerometrex.com.au/blog/?p=217

"If you've used Google Earth, you know that free satellite imagery is already pretty good. Google's systems are capable of incredible resolution — down to less than a meter. Some onlookers report that the real figure is actually about half a meter, and is limited only by government restrictions that prevent the image quality from getting too good."

Google earth offers areas with a 15cm/6 inch resolution - you can read for example the ad writings on the Luxor Hotel roof in Las Vegas..thats pretty cool. It is allegedly the maximum possible resolution of the satellite.

http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2006/03/google_releases.html

By the way, google will offer a lot higher resolutions soon "New satellite will quadruple quality of Google Maps". This will be fun :p. With the current resolution you can see already the different colors of roof stones from houses. Curious what you can see after the update.

Companies like DigitalGlobe were limited to capturing a 50cm square of ground space per pixel, but are now free to go as low as 25cm, giving four times the number of pixels for a given photograph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11029256/New-satellite-will-quadruple-quality-of-Google-Maps.html

This is the quality we can expect from satellites over Ukraine. As you can see you can't see anything (almost :D)

Oh yeah, this:

Edited November 7, 2014 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

Gysi.....Sadly that guy goes into stupid mode as soon as someone mentions fashists. A great portion of the german left party bought Putins bullshit about fashists in Kiev and is therefore very much in favour of Russia failing to realize that the most fashists are on Putins side.

I didn´t criticize Dwardens bit of news because I was missing some more background info about what exactly I was seeing there. Maybe you noticed that I don´t comment on Surphers videos as well if they are in Russian and I don´t really understand what is going on there. It is however perfectly clear that the Rebels are receiving Weapons and supplies from Russia. If they were using just captured stuff they would have run out of ammo already, especially for their artillery.

I know if a piece of news is good quality if it doesn´t try to bullshit me. During this whole Crysis Russian news has come up again and again with nonsense a 10 year old could debunk. Like that nice example you posted where Russia claims that the Ukrainians wanted to shoot Putins plane. :rolleyes:

Russia is probably sending military aid to the rebels, but think about it. If the Russian army is really involved, then how come they're wasting men for months and no progress, no new offensives? And then you go and ridicule anyone with a different opinion while calling them a conspiracy theorist (while perpetuating one your self).

What is happening here a lot is that someone says "Russians in Ukraine!!!" and "Here's proof" and then a picture of some random guy standing buy a sign post (often so blurry and low resolution that you can't even read what the sign says) , or of a box of shells on the ground, and says "there's the proof". The others see this and say "Yeah, yeah, it's the Russians alright.".

News shouldn't work like that. That's one sided and unfair in so many ways.

---------- Post added at 15:05 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5704556-3x2-940x627.jpg

If I'm not mistaking, that is the image that was criticized on that German show.

[beastcat 14]

Russia is probably sending military aid to the rebels, but think about it. If the Russian army is really involved, then how come they're wasting men for months and no progress, no new offensives? And then you go and ridicule anyone with a different opinion while calling them a conspiracy theorist (while perpetuating one your self).

What is happening here a lot is that someone says "Russians in Ukraine!!!" and "Here's proof" and then a picture of some random guy standing buy a sign post (often so blurry and low resolution that you can't even read what the sign says) , or of a box of shells on the ground, and says "there's the proof". The others see this and say "Yeah, yeah, it's the Russians alright.".

News shouldn't work like that. That's one sided and unfair in so many ways.

[x3kj 1247]

This is the quality we can expect from satellites over Ukraine.

That's on the same level of google maps... i have doubts that military tech does not surpass commonly available sattelite imagery. Seeing bottles on the ground - idk sounds a bit far fetched to me, but as we dont have access to real current day military spy sattelite nobody will be able to proof that...

Edited November 7, 2014 by Fennek

[surpher 1]

This is the quality we can expect from satellites over Ukraine. As you can see you can't see anything (almost :D)

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/zi6P46UqS2Nja4NwUrksOw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTQ4MA--/http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/en_us/Finance/US_AFTP_SILICONALLEY_H_LIVE/NATO_Releases_Satellite_Evidence_That-8c077d555f1642e33e91902e5a15f783

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5704556-3x2-940x627.jpg

NATO purposely used satellite images from Digital Globe, commercially available to anyone.

What is happening here a lot is that someone says "Russians in Ukraine!!!" and "Here's proof" and then a picture of some random guy standing buy a sign post (often so blurry and low resolution that you can't even read what the sign says) , or of a box of shells on the ground, and says "there's the proof". The others see this and say "Yeah, yeah, it's the Russians alright.".

Examples?

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://puu.sh/cGPnx/ea1a6cb7e6.jpg

This is up until they reached Mariupol, then they stopped, and the stand still dragged on for months.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Examples?

You expect me to go through 600 pages of the thread to find some examples. I'm to lazy to do that, but if you've been following the thread for the last 6 months, you'll know what I'm talking about.

[beastcat 14]

This is up until they reached Mariupol, then they stopped, and the stand still dragged on for months.

So what are you trying to say? The russian territory has multiplied since the russian army got directly involved and there is currently no way to take Mariupol, especially before the airport. Just because they halted their advance they are suddenly not there anymore?

[aleksadragutin 9]

So what are you trying to say? The russian territory has multiplied since the russian army got directly involved and there is currently no way to take Mariupol, especially before the airport. Just because they halted their advance they are suddenly not there anymore?

No, the point is that Russia wouldn't waist men, ammo and time with this stand still. If the Russian army is really involved, the offensive wouldn't have stopped. Do you think one ruined airport is really to much for the Russians to handle? If Russia really wanted to, the whole Donbass could be taken.

The "Russian army in Ukraine" is an excuse to justify UA failure to defeat the rebels, and also to distance the soldiers from the people that they are killing.

My point is that the Russian army hasn't been there at all.

Edited November 8, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

No, the point is that Russia wouldn't waist men, ammo and time with this stand still. If the Russian army is really involved, the offensive wouldn't have stopped. Do you think one ruined airport is really to much for the Russians to handle? If Russia really wanted to, the whole Donbass could be taken.

The "Russian army in Ukraine" is an excuse to justify UA failure to defeat the rebels, and also to distance the soldiers from the people that they are killing.

My point is that the Russian army hasn't been there at all.

And again I get the feeling you live in some kind of parallel universe. Just look back in this thread you will get countless proof.

http://lostivan.ru/

Hell, there are even captured, not killed, russian soldiers

Sorry, but this "excuse to justify UA failure to defeat the rebels" argument is utterly retarded. The separatists have been loosing big time until the russian army stepped in and then quadrupled their territory withing weeks, even though the DPR has been completely surrounded and cut off. And no, they did not fight their way out of Donetsk somehow, the attack came from the russian border, from territory where there were no separatists. Same goes for Mariupol. There were no separatists even close. The attackers came completely from the borders.

We have videos, photos, reports and so on, many provided by the soldiers themselves.

If russian soldiers on active duty fight, kill and die in another country, than its safe to say that the russian army is present.

Oh yeah and if you ask yourself why the russian army didn't just take all of Ukraine, Poland and half europe if they are so awesome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

[Tonci87 163]

It was pretty clear that the Separatists had a decisive defeat incoming, a huge area of their territory was almost cut off from the Russian support and bam suddenly they started a counteroffensive and even opened up a new front. They totally did this on their own without any help from Russia.......

[surpher 1]

Final extraordinary parliamentary election results.

(OSCE) Spot report by the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM), 7 November 2014: shelling and fatalities in Donetsk

On 6 November 2014, at 8:25 hrs, the SMM arrived at School No. 63 on Stepanenko Street, Donetsk, about three kilometres north-west of the city centre. The SMM saw a football pitch on the east side of the school, enclosed by steel mesh fencing; shrapnel damage to the pitch, fencing and goal posts; and, on the northern edge of the pitch, one metre from the fence, a shell crater, which was one metre in diameter.

All craters seen by the SMM were about one metre in diameter and the depths varied. The SMM’s analysis indicates that at least four of the craters were caused by 120mm mortar shells and two others were the result of 122mm artillery rounds. In the SMM’s assessment, all of these were fired from a location north-west of the football pitch and were the result of high-angle fire.

(The Telegraph) Russian actor and Putin critic found dead in Moscow

Police said the scene was being investigated and there was no immediate confirmation of whether he had been murdered, or the potential motives of a killer.

However, Mr Devotchenko's outspoken criticism of the rule of Vladimir Putin, Russia's president, is likely to provoke intense scrutiny over how and why he died.

(New Republic) Russia's Currency Is Plummeting and Putin's Billionaires Are Cannibalizing Each Other

Every day since November 1 has brought new lows for the ruble. By Wednesday, the Russian Central Bank, which had been spending billions of its reserve dollars every day to prop up the Russian currency, announced it was no longer going to do so. It was going to let the ruble float. (Technically speaking, it said that it would “only†spend $350 million a day to prop up the ruble.)

The ruble promptly nosedived.

You expect me to go through 600 pages of the thread to find some examples. I'm to lazy to do that, but if you've been following the thread for the last 6 months, you'll know what I'm talking about.

This post for example?

[oxmox 73]

This should be clear by now that the east ukrainian fighters get support with military gear and probably from russian advisers who train them like the NATO general said in an interview. Otherwise from where would they get all the military stuff.

Chomsky: US and its NATO intervention force may spark nuclear war

How dangerous is the current confrontation between Russia and the West? Noam Chomsky believes that NATO expansion and US quest for hegemony has put the world in a situation so unstable where any accidental interaction could result in a nuclear war.

‘New NATO aims to control the world’

The “new NATO†that emerged after the Soviet Union collapsed is basically a US-run intervention force, with a completely different mission as compared to the original, Chomsky tells RT’s Sophie&Co.

“In fact, one might ask why NATO even continued to exist,†he said. “The official justification for NATO was that its purpose was to defend Western Europe from Russian hordes who might attack Western Europe.â€

With no more “Russian threatâ€, the natural conclusion in the 90s would be to disband the alliance, but instead the opposite happened – against all agreements NATO expanded all the way towards the Russian borders.

“Its mission changed. The official mission of NATO became to control the international, the global energy system, pipelines. That means, to control the world.â€

In the worst case scenario the current international instability, especially with tensions between US and Russia resembling a new cold war, could result in a nuclear war, in which all parties that initiate it would be eliminated.

‘West can’t isolate Russia, will drive it to the East’

With its efforts to isolate Russia through confrontation and sanctions, the West instead pushes Moscow closer to the East, towards closer relations with China.

“Current Western policies are driving Russia towards closer interaction with the Chinese-based system. In this interaction Russia is actually the weaker partner, so it’s making concessions, but the US is openly creating a system of power, which could significantly diminish US domination in the world.â€

“There is a Trans-Pacific Partnership, so-called, a huge commercial treaty, designed to incorporate the Asian countries, not China, but the other Asian countries, crucially not China,†Chomsky said. “But that’s the plan and it’s the kind of economic counterpart to the military pivot to Asia, and the sanctions on Russia are helping to create a counter-course based on Shanghai Cooperation Organization, or an extension of it, which would include Russia, and may begin to move across Eurasia, the whole Eurasian region.â€

http://rt.com/news/203055-us-russia-war-chomsky/

Edited November 8, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Puting the blame on NATO for what Russia is doing in Ukraine is just pathetic.

[oxmox 73]

Puting the blame on NATO for what Russia is doing in Ukraine is just pathetic.

Ignoring some points he mentions is wrong aswell, it does not justifies whats going on in this conflict but it adds and is a part of it. Especially the point to drive Russia to the east is mentioned by other experts aswell and NATO did make mistakes with its expansion. I cant image there is a huge threat about a nuclear war, that sounds at least exaggerated for me. But every nation should be calm and not escalate.

Edited November 8, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ignoring some points he mentions is wrong aswell.

You may not ignore the purpose of RT publishing such video.

[oxmox 73]

You may not ignore the purpose of RT publishing such video.

Sometimes they offer very interesting articles and videos which you can research, getting backed up by other experts/think tanks but is neglected by other sources.

Edited November 8, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

But NOTHING can excuse the way Putin is behaving in his own country, taking away freedom and money from its own people and promoting blind nationalism together with homophobia and xenophobia. Defending Putin's internal behaviour and external policy by the way the western countries behave is very dangerous, as much as Versailles treaty was an utter failure but didn't excuse the behaviour of German's leaders during WW2.

[Tonci87 163]

After the collaps of the Soviet union the east european countries got into NATO as soon as they bloody could. Not because Nato desperately wanted to expand, but because those countries were fed up with Russia counquering, exploiting and opressing them again and again. Something wich many of those people putting the blame on NATO are only too happy to forgett. And everything Putin does now only makes NATO stronger. I really can´t see how anybody can blame NATO for the current events.

[aleksadragutin 9]

This should be clear by now that the east ukrainian fighters get support with military gear and probably from russian advisers who train them like the NATO general said in an interview. Otherwise from where would they get all the military stuff.

Weapon and ammunition supplies, sure. But the Russian army itself in Ukraine is a very very wild theory, and is as ridiculous as the Russian propaganda. Only this can't bee propaganda because it is on western and Ukrainian news, right?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Weapon and ammunition supplies, sure. But the Russian army itself in Ukraine is a very very wild theory, and is as ridiculous as the Russian propaganda. Only this can't bee propaganda because it is on western and Ukrainian news, right?

Come on, i don't deny Ukrainian propaganda but the full support of Russia towards separatists is extremely obvious, together with a direct military help.

[Dwarden 1125]

I supported us to join NATO exactly for this reason ...

sure I would like to stay neutral like Swiss or Finland, but w/o

1. modern and formidable army

2. high moral standards and will to fight

3. rich country

4. every household has weapon

you can't survive w/o being part of some 'major block'

Russia clearly shown it to every country around

[aleksadragutin 9]

Come on, i don't deny Ukrainian propaganda but the full support of Russia towards separatists is extremely obvious, together with a direct military help.

Support yes, but seriously, NATO notices an ant move 2 cm towards Ukraine, but it doesn't have enough evidence to accuse Russia of military presence. I mean come on.

If they can't prove it, nobody can.

You simply can't move thousands of troops with such stealth.